The Vanney Era Deathwatch Thread

[jloome]

Vanneys teams over parts of two seasons have given up the first goal in the first half in nearly every game. That's a coaching issue, not an injury issue or anything else. It started as soon as he took over versus Philly and hasn't stopped. The nine times it hasn't happened, we have won.

With the exception of Stephen Caldwell, we arguably haven't had a player on our roster for two seasons who could start at center back on almost any team in this league. If Perquis isn't good enough because he can't be consistent (and hasn't been for most of his career, same with Kantari) why did they expect him to become so in MLS?

There are lots of players who appear, in the odd game, to have enough combo of technique and intelligence to succeed but really don't because of inconsistency. Rohan Ricketts, Martin Saric anyone? It's the hallmark of the MLS 1.0 player, the Euro journeyman etc etc Every team in MLS has them; the one with the fewest in the starting lineup tends to win.

I'm by no means saying Vanney has been perfect, but when you look at the shuffling he's done this season as Og has pointed out, it may also be that our options are just kind of shit in that area. When players don't perform, you can't by default say "the coach is at fault." Often, the player just isn't good enough. In fact, as Taylor Twellman pointed out the other night, we've been in the bottom six of the league defensively in EVERY season in the league. Look at where those central defenders have gone; it's the one position where not one former TFC player outside of perhaps Marvell Wynne has made a contribution elsewhere in the league.

[Yohan]

^Tyrone Marshall. But your point is valid

[Auzzy]

LOL, Aaron Maund started & played as CB for the full 90, with RSL in their 3-0 win against the LA Galaxy on the weekend. Aaron also assisted Devon Sandoval on the first goal.

[trane]

Giovinco has not looked very happy, in the games we have lost, he is here to win. Yes there are many things that are going well for him, but he is here to win, and it is clear from his expression that he is very frustrated with going down in so many games. Now I have no idea how he feels about Vanney, but if he does not think Vanney is cutting it, I have to suspect that he will get his way and Vanney will be let go. I am not for this kind of thing, players dictating in such a manner but this is reality.

A manager needs to assess the talent that he has, and he has to make the best of it. If your cbs are mistake prone then you protect them with your mids, and you ask for them to do what they can. Again I think that Vanney has done some good things, but he has had enough time to have found some solutions to our defensive problems, he has not yet, hopefully he will soon. Defensive disorganization, lack of a good shape, lack of compactness, has the biggest effect on the back line and particularly CBs, as they are left to deal with all the problems. There the whole manager v players to blame thing is a bit of a chicken v egg, but ultimately the manager needs to find solutions.

[Oldtimer]

ultimately the manager needs to find solutions.

...or the GM, but that won't be until the off-season. I think we all agree we need a DM as well as some other defensive upgrades.

[PopePouri]

The following statistic would be interesting:

How many coaches in their first year at a club, have taken a team who missed the playoffs in their previous year, to be challenging for the top of the conference?

[trane]

^ With all due respect, that question does not apply to the present situation. First it is not Vanney's first year. Second the club received a considerable upgrade in talent in the off-season.

If Vanney gets fired and a new coach takes over with the club staying pretty much the same then the question may be interesting.

[PopePouri]

^ With all due respect, that question does not apply to the present situation. First it is not Vanney's first year.

Fine then.

How many coaches in their first (and 10/34ths) year at a club, have taken a team who missed the playoffs in their previous year, to be challenging for the top of the conference?

Second the club received a considerable upgrade in talent in the off-season.

Upgrade yes, Considerable, no.

[michaeltfc91]

^ We have 40 points after 29 games, exact same as last year. We are also one game under .500 so how are we challenging to be a top team? We have a top 5 squad in MLS yet are stuck between 10-15 in the league. Let Vanney finish the year though please and then we'll see what happens

[vortexdr]

Fine then.

How many coaches in their first (and 10/34ths) year at a club, have taken a team who missed the playoffs in their previous year, to be challenging for the top of the conference?



Upgrade yes, Considerable, no.

Not sure if serious....Giovinco would shit over all your previous DPs as far as talent level goes (his performances speak for themselves)....Altidore is a waste of space but he is about equal to Defoe. Both are players who could never really hack it in a real football league. The same cant be said about Seba....He was one of football's top talents in his Parma days, and then never truly got a chance for Juve mostly due to his size (and you cant blame them, the talent level and size of defenders much higher in Europe compared to these welfare defenders in MLS).

[OgtheDim]

Not sure if serious...Altidore is a waste of space but he is about equal to Defoe. Both are players who could never really hack it in a real football league. .

Speaking of not sure if serious...

[Ultra & Proud]

It's interesting that our point total is the same as last years at this time but mostly everyone is pleased with Vanney and our position. I guess it's the goals for that does it but I wonder how that would have shaken down if Seba didn't come here and we had a mix of Altidore, Gilberto, Moore, and Findlay as our main forwards. I bet worse than 40 points and worse for goals scored too. Honestly adding Seba instead of Defoe to Nelson's dull counter attacking system probably would have popped a few more wins on that total too. Of course that's all what if, fantasy stuff but overlooking the Seba effect on the Vanney tenure would be foolish. He still has a job because of Seba's work. If not for him I think Vanney would have been canned long ago.

[PopePouri]

Not sure if serious....Giovinco would shit over all your previous DPs as far as talent level goes (his performances speak for themselves)....Altidore is a waste of space but he is about equal to Defoe. Both are players who could never really hack it in a real football league. The same cant be said about Seba....He was one of football's top talents in his Parma days, and then never truly got a chance for Juve mostly due to his size (and you cant blame them, the talent level and size of defenders much higher in Europe compared to these welfare defenders in MLS).

Last year's problems are still relevant this year. Last year, most goals came from Defoe and Gilberto. This year it's Altidore and Giovinco, all DPs. Where are the goals coming from in midfield? That's why the upgrade isn't that considerable. Our domestic core is still relatively poor compared to Vancouver, NE, Columbus and LA.

[Ultra & Proud]

Our domestic core is still relatively poor compared to Vancouver, NE, Columbus and LA.

The upgrade is considerable in numbers and on paper our back line should be better but it is what it is. A mix of bonehead mistakes, players taking plays off, and a system that often lacks support.

And yes our domestic core is worse than those teams but it's better than it has ever been, although that's not saying much. Hopefully Bez looks inside MLS to fill some spots or we hit the re-entry draft hard, if there is anyone in there worth taking that is. My biggest disappointment this year was a lack of MLS acquisitions in the summer window by us. Last year Bez pulled off some good deals and I expected more of the same this year.

[trane]

Maybe I am missing something, but didn't Altidore score 10 goals for us so far???? I have a hard time calling that useless. He is given us exactly what I had hoped for, and is doing what we need him to do for the most part. Now playing a pure CF out on the wing, that is not his decision.

Why does he have to be Vanney is the worst ever, or Vanney is the best ever??? Why can we not be truly critical of all the members of the club, meaning not negative, but looking at them for what they are.

[spark]

Fine then.

How many coaches in their first (and 10/34ths) year at a club, have taken a team who missed the playoffs in their previous year, to be challenging for the top of the conference?

Pretty sure Arena did. I think Kreis did too ... or at least had the team unbeatable at home.

[Oldtimer]

Pretty sure Arena did. I think Kreis did too ... or at least had the team unbeatable at home.

that came quite a bit later for Kreis. His team was terrible at first, then at about the point that Vanney is barely squeezed into the playoffs by 1 point when a certain team lost their last game of the season (a game they were widely expected to win) against the last place team in their conference, on a dreary day in New Jersey.

[brad]

If Vanney goes - we should hire Ray Hudson. Has MLS experience, won the supporters shield, and most importantly would make TFC interviews highly entertaining. Sounds like something out of "the magnetic spectrum of brilliance" to me. (I just found out he was an MLS manager in the early days and had a good laugh)

[ag futbol]

Pretty sure Arena did. I think Kreis did too ... or at least had the team unbeatable at home.

Kreis barely got RSL into the playoffs in his second year as coach (they did well once they qualified). LA missed the playoffs by one game (or something like that) prior to Arena showing up, so it wasn't overly dramatic.


SKC with Vermes and DCU with Olsen are probably the closest examples of worst - top you can get.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Not sure if serious....Giovinco would shit over all your previous DPs as far as talent level goes (his performances speak for themselves)....Altidore is a waste of space but he is about equal to Defoe. Both are players who could never really hack it in a real football league. The same cant be said about Seba....He was one of football's top talents in his Parma days, and then never truly got a chance for Juve mostly due to his size (and you cant blame them, the talent level and size of defenders much higher in Europe compared to these welfare defenders in MLS).

Waste of space = 10 goals. Got it.

Defenders in Europe...all of Europe? That's a lot countries and a tonne of divisions you're over estimating.

[spark]

Kreis barely got RSL into the playoffs in his second year as coach (they did well once they qualified). LA missed the playoffs by one game (or something like that) prior to Arena showing up, so it wasn't overly dramatic.

SKC with Vermes and DCU with Olsen are probably the closest examples of worst - top you can get.

Well RSL was one game behind Chivas for second and finished third (granted IIRC only a few points ahead of those behind them).

LA missed the playoffs in 08 by more than one game.

What is dramatic about Kreis in '08 and Arena in '09 is that Kreis improved his team by 13 points, while Arena did by 15 points. That is probably a better measure of improvement, no?

If you want real drama - in Porter's first year at Portland, he improved them by 23 points and finished in first.

[ensco]

If Vanney goes - we should hire Ray Hudson. Has MLS experience, won the supporters shield, and most importantly would make TFC interviews highly entertaining. Sounds like something out of "the magnetic spectrum of brilliance" to me. (I just found out he was an MLS manager in the early days and had a good laugh)

He makes a decent living out of his myriad US TV and radio gigs. He has had job offers but he isn't going anywhere. He has a sweet life, does most of his broadcasts from his house on the beach in Ft Lauderdale.

[shwade]

Waste of space = 10 goals. Got it.

Defenders in Europe...all of Europe? That's a lot countries and a tonne of divisions you're over estimating.

Waste of a DP spot for sure. 10 goals for the 7th highest paid player in MLS? higher than Dempsey, Keane and Martins. Not even mentioning non-DPs that are outperforming him, or that 2-3 of his goals were penalties.

[Ruffian]

I got a message on my phone letting me know about a live feed from Toronto FC's YouTube account. When I went to it it was live but was just static. Is something in the works? I would not expect any announcements at this time of the season.

[Areathrasher]

I got a message on my phone letting me know about a live feed from Toronto FC's YouTube account. When I went to it it was live but was just static. Is something in the works? I would not expect any announcements at this time of the season.

It's still up, looks like they are testing something.

[PopePouri]

What is dramatic about Kreis in '08 and Arena in '09 is that Kreis improved his team by 13 points, while Arena did by 15 points. That is probably a better measure of improvement, no?

Robinson only improved his team by 2 points in his first year.

It looks like Porter and Arena are definitive but they probably fall into a group of statistical outliers.

Kreis didn't challenge for the top the conference because Houston won by 10 points.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Waste of a DP spot for sure. 10 goals for the 7th highest paid player in MLS? higher than Dempsey, Keane and Martins. Not even mentioning non-DPs that are outperforming him, or that 2-3 of his goals were penalties.

Waste of space is not waste of a DP spot. Other players on our team recently took a pay cut for various reasons. It may not be the last time.

[Dunkers]

^ We have 40 points after 29 games, exact same as last year. We are also one game under .500 so how are we challenging to be a top team? We have a top 5 squad in MLS yet are stuck between 10-15 in the league. Let Vanney finish the year though please and then we'll see what happens

To be fair, TFC only picked up 1 more point on the season after game 29 last year. Could that happen again, sure but with 4 of 5 at home, Id like to think we should pick up 9 points. I think that is why we still see some optimism.

[MightyDM]

Giovinco has not looked very happy, in the games we have lost, he is here to win. Yes there are many things that are going well for him, but he is here to win, and it is clear from his expression that he is very frustrated with going down in so many games. Now I have no idea how he feels about Vanney, but if he does not think Vanney is cutting it, I have to suspect that he will get his way and Vanney will be let go. I am not for this kind of thing, players dictating in such a manner but this is reality.

A manager needs to assess the talent that he has, and he has to make the best of it. If your cbs are mistake prone then you protect them with your mids, and you ask for them to do what they can. Again I think that Vanney has done some good things, but he has had enough time to have found some solutions to our defensive problems, he has not yet, hopefully he will soon. Defensive disorganization, lack of a good shape, lack of compactness, has the biggest effect on the back line and particularly CBs, as they are left to deal with all the problems. There the whole manager v players to blame thing is a bit of a chicken v egg, but ultimately the manager needs to find solutions.

This is what I think. He plays an attacking style with too little effort given to being certain about defence, with the result that we are easy to score on. And we beat teams who are also easy to score on because of the coaching and the talent.

[MightyDM]

Fine then.

How many coaches in their first (and 10/34ths) year at a club, have taken a team who missed the playoffs in their previous year, to be challenging for the top of the conference?



Upgrade yes, Considerable, no.

If you are going to be that precise, the question is, how many coaches took over a team in a plyoff position, guided it out of the playoffs, and in the next year made the playoffs? That's more accurate and more fair to Vanney.

I liked last year's team and agreed with the counter attacking style, it works in MLS. This year, giovinco is likely to be the best player we will see in a Reds uniform. He is a delight to watch and he bradley jozy (on a good day) osorio and delgado combine brilliantly. But there is often something off in the balance of selections or the formation. Th fact that we rarely draw is telling. And I think that's where we see Vanneys weakness. There also seems something off in the teams passion - go look at the clip of the team celebrating gilbertos goal in the clip Ensco posted in the Chicago game thread and they all look full of joy. I found it strikingly different from this year. That may or may not have something to do with Vanney and his personality/ motivation.