Nelsen got more draws. Vanney has far more wins
Coach Nation From To Record1 G W L T Win % Ryan Nelsen New Zealand
January 7, 2013 August 31, 2014 64 17 29 18 26.56 Greg Vanney United States
August 31, 2014 present 34 13 16 5 38.24
Nelsen got more draws. Vanney has far more wins
Coach Nation From To Record1 G W L T Win % Ryan Nelsen January 7, 2013 August 31, 2014 64 17 29 18 26.56 Greg Vanney August 31, 2014 present 34 13 16 5 38.24
Last edited by Ajax TFC; 08-30-2015 at 08:20 AM.
Hard to compare. Nelsen didn't have Giovinco.
Nelsen had his own choice of DPs. It's his own fault that they weren't effective enough
I don't know how much truth there is to Nelsen not caring about reviewing tape, or statistical metrics, but that's enough for me to conclude he was out of his depth.
Nelsen's team was basically a slight upgrade to what we had when Mariner was here, the team mindset was defensive which in itself isn't a problem, but the offense was porous and to top it off just look at how many late game goals that team gave up.
That team was built like a house of cards, at least this team more recently has shown that they don't need Giovinco every game.
Last edited by Richard; 08-30-2015 at 12:49 AM.
Well he also got his "dream dp" which happened to be a guy who relied on service to a fault and really wasn't into playing over here. You make your own luck, or so they say.Originally Posted by Blixa
Nelsen got more draws. Vanney has far more wins
Coach Nation From To Record1 G W L T Win % Ryan Nelsen January 7, 2013 August 31, 2014 64 17 29 18 26.56 Greg Vanney August 31, 2014 present 34 13 16 5 38.24
and that's including Vanney's, what was it, 2-8 start at the end of last season? All with Nelsen's depleted squad.
We have crushed Philly, Orlando and Montreal, and been pretty much the worst team in the league against the rest of the league.
We are where we are in the standings solely because of Seba, and I would still make the change, at season's end, unless we really show in the playoffs that we can handle pressure systems. Jesse Marsch's comments are still ringing in my ears. Most better clubs have been able to totally shut us down tactically.
Last edited by ensco; 08-30-2015 at 04:29 AM.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
thats right. And we didn't "lose way more" under Nelsen. Interesting to see Nelsens stats just for 2014 as 2013 wasn't as good a team talent wise.Nelsen got more draws. Vanney has far more wins
Coach Nation From To Record1 G W L T Win % Ryan Nelsen January 7, 2013 August 31, 2014 64 17 29 18 26.56 Greg Vanney August 31, 2014 present 34 13 16 5 38.24
i don't get this "out of his depth" argument at all. Nielsen played at a higher level than Vanney, Captain of at least two BPL sides and the NZ National team to an undefeated World Cup. He may or may not be an effective coach, but to suggest that he didn't understand soccer tactics at the highest level is absurd. Perhaps he was too stubborn about counter attacking football but in 2013 with a poor roster he made it competitive, and was doing well in 2014 until Defoe got hurt. He never solved the balance in the team though, and never quite figured out how to use Bradley. Vanney has a similar issue now of balance and how to use Jozy/ Gio/ Bradley, although I think he has done a better job than Nelsen of using Bradley's strengths.
Playing is not coaching.
Nelson GP 24 Record 9-9-6 August 30th 2014
Vanney GP 25 Record 11-10-4 August 30th 2015
Equals a 37.5% winning percentage for Nelson and 44% for Vanney. If you do it at 24 games each, Vanney is at around 42%
Last edited by akoto; 08-30-2015 at 11:36 AM.
It's absurd to believe you can succeed at the highest levels of the game without a decent understanding of tactics or at least how to implement them, in Nelsen's case even more so considering the level of tactical organization that undefeated World Cup in 2010 warranted
Just speaking tactically - I think Nelsen would've had a better record with the current team than what Vanney has right now. I think he would've been able to lock down the defensive woes quicker than what Vanney is doing.
I know the stats say otherwise, but keep in mind - Gio has single handedly won us a few of those games. Without Gio - The records would be more equal.
All in all - I have no favour for one over the other. Both are fine MLS level managers who could get us into the playoffs (Keep in mind Nelsen had us in the playoffs last year before Vanney stepped in - and Vanney has us in the playoffs as of right now).
I think people are mistaking Team Tactics for Player Fuck Ups. Not saying Vanney is a tactical genius, but I think we could be better if players didn't do stupid things on the pitch.
That 32 pass sequence was one of the first examples I've seen this season of players moving the ball at a somewhat decent pace and with purpose
When they don't hold on to the ball for longer than they need to or make stupid arial passes, they actually have a decent plan of attack. There have been other glimpses of that tactical movement going forward in place, but it usually ends with a player doing something stupid.
Again - I think the Vanney hate is misplaced and unwarranted this season.
This is a good article by Doyle analyzing Jozy's play.
http://www.mlssoccer.com/rivalries/n...suffering-team
We've been blaming the midfield for being too slow and not giving defence enough cover, and the defence for screwing up. And to be sure, the midfield and the defence do deserve some level of blame.
But Giovinco and Altidore just don't do enough work defensively to pressure the opposition without the ball. Well, at least consistently. Essentially, TFC is defending 9 men instead of 11. The strikers has to do more defensively.
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
OK, let me rephrase that
Implementing something as a player is not the same as implementing something as a coach. And that's what accounts for the idea that Nelsen was out of his depth.
But let's not discuss facts. Subjective memory a couple of years later is much more accurate.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
I do not hate Vanney, there are elements of the game such as possession and team passing which we have improved greatly under Vanney. There is no doubt. But I cannot help but agree with your earlier analyses, that even with Nelsen, as poor as we were by the simple fact that we would park the bus, and rely on the counter, that with Gio, Altidore in addition to Bradley we would get more points. It would not be pretty.
The thing about mistakes is that it is on the player, but it is for the coach, to work on minimizing them, and to develop systems that minimize both mistakes and the effect of mistakes. Maybe with time he will get better with time. I am in Montreal for a hearing, and it is all over the news that their Manager got fired for lossing yesterday and only getting 11 points out of 11 games I think is what they said.
There's no evidence that Nelsen would know how to get the best out of our three DP's the same way Vanney has. If anything, Nelsen was a major reason that Bradley had such a bad year last year.
He is right about Altidore at times, he should play more like a classic CF and hold up play more, and be aggressive and physical against the cbs in particular. But the article says nothing about Giovinco, and Giovinco pressures everybody including the keeper, and he will come back deep to recover the ball.
But Altidore is hardly the cause of our defensive problems. We keep good and tight going forward for the most part, but somehow we fail to do it consistently enough when we defend.
Dude, you cannot have evidence of Nelsen getting the best our of the DPs when he did not have those DPs, The point is that even if we simply parked the bus, let Bradley, Altidore and particularly Giovinco do their thing we would have more points. It is all speculation based on observation. I am not sure why you get so protective of Vanney, again who is doing some good things, no one is, at least I am not, that he is worst human being ever, just that if we were better defensively this team would have a real shot and doing great things this year. Now I am not sure. Hence if we could get a manger who could keep us clicking offensively but address our defensive problems I would be for hiring him, instead of Vanney. Is this offensive???
No, I'm just saying that there's clear evidence of Vanney trying to play to his players strengths and is getting the most out of his best players. Nelsen, on the other hand, was inept at this. So the notion that Nelsen would have had a better record than Vanney if he had Vanney's players is ridiculous. No one on this team would be in as good form or in a better position to succeed if Nelsen were currently the coach.
That includes a 7 game roadtrip as well. His stats will only get better.But let's not discuss facts. Subjective memory a couple of years later is much more accurate.
Defoe was at least initially interested in helping TFC. I saw no evidence of Nelsen using him or Bradley effectively like Vanney is using his DPs. In fact the whole discussion on this board was how incompetent Nelsen was due to "no experience." The only question was whether to give him more time, fire him immediately, or fire him at the end of the season. Now I'm to believe he was a defensive genius and he would have a great record if only he had Giovinco. Well, it's just as likely that Giovinco would have gotten fed up playing under him just like Defoe did.
It's tough to say how we would get those points and how we would be playing. Vanney is definitely an "Attack to Defend" style manager - the more you attack, you less you defend. He hasn't mastered that system yet, but he is getting players that can do that job - hence why we would go and get Gomez at the break instead of a defender.
Nelsen was a defend first then break out and attack manager - Hence why we had Defoe - a guy who do it all himself as we saw last year.
I wonder if he would continue with that style with the players he would've had now.
Let's not forget his tenure saw Morrow, Jackson, Osorio, Bradley come into the first team - as well as most of our bench. So the building blocks for an attacking team were there.
Vanney "brought" in Altidore, Giovinco, Cheyrou, Perquise and Delgado - which are probably the only real starters who should continue as such - but he had the luxury of already having a decent bench and a few starters in place. More rounded team afforded him the advantage to TRY and execute an attack style game.
Anyways - it's all hypothetical at this point.
We are in a great position to make the playoffs and because of the squad we currently have - adding a couple more guys next year to finish off the club and actually be contenders going into the playoffs. Changing the manager before we see how next season unfolds is a very dumb idea. It wreaks of non-football related, corporate bullshit.
I'm not speaking to you specifically Trane, but there seems to be a general idea brewing that we should be playing a specific style of football - and not matter what the results we are getting - we should aim for that standard, even if it means disrupting the flow of the team.
Last edited by jabbronies; 08-31-2015 at 08:54 AM.
Lots of turmoil at NYCFC right now, with Kreis publicly questioning the commitment of his players, and Lampard responding in kind.
In the event that Kreis is let go in the off season, I think he would be a great hire for us.
here's how I see it......after the debacle last year, TFC needed some "wow" to bring fans back or fear losing them once and for all......they did it with Giovinco and Altidore, and the front end fire power should be enough to at least get a playoff game in.....now in the offseason, the goal should be to complete the defense.......TFC was never going to be a complete team this year, especially considering how the front end needed to be revamped....
imo, Vanney is the most tactically competent coach we've ever had......to hear him talk, he understands the game and x's and o's more than the others we've had....
Oh, he's toast I think. He would be good but we'll have to see what Vanney has in the tank for the rest of the season. He can have all the X's and O's he wants but if we keep getting pressed and keep looking like crap against it then something will have to give. I think Vanney is pretty good actually but not great, not yet, maybe not ever. I can see him being a stepping stone type manager for the guy to take us to that next level. I am not sure Vanney is that guy. They may see Kreis as that guy and it'd be an easy sell to the masses if we stink up the first match of the playoffs and get skunked by a team's high press again.
Silva is the real power in that locker room, not Lampard, and Silva pretty much indicated last week that upper management blew it by not getting him a #9 to play off of in a 4-4-2 diamond. I think Kreis stays while Pirlo says goodbye and they bring in a big name forward while Lampard limps through one more season.
*Villa
I've been doing that for 9 months.
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