Well sure, I acknowledge what we've seen so far has left much to be desired. Like you I would rather not see him back.Originally Posted by MightyDM
However, I just don't see this core of defensive players as being acceptable under any coach. Is that a greater issue than Vanney's coaching? I dont' know, probably not, but it's a factor none the less.
The thread should be called Bez deathwatch thread. I don't blame Vanney at all, he's just a guy given the incompetently built squad. We are not asking to be Liverpool FC here, yet Montreal can embarrass us in the playoffs. We can't even field a respectable playoff effort after nine fucking years.
Give him another half-season with an actual backline and defensive midfielder and we'll see.
Has anyone watched footage from the locker room? Vanney issuch an UN inspired monotone robot. He couldn't motivate a guy on speed. I really hope he's gone. I don't know how he could stay inho...
He is staying,new TFC President worked with him at RSL,he won't fire him after making playoffs for the first time after 9 years in this league.
So true. Have some emotion once in a while when you talk. I think its rubbed off on the players. They looked like they had absolutely no desire to win yesterday. It was shameful. Vanney probably had them singing kumbaya and saying everything will be okay. Light a fire under their ass. Didn't help his tacts and roster line up was exactly the opposite of what I was hopping. This game was a continuation of the second half from last game. Mauro Biello actually made changes and reaped the benefits.
This was just way too painful. Saying this with a calm head but that was absolutely an embarrassing performance. I hope Jason Kreis is available. He's the one coach I think would do great here.
I don't know....Kreis had one situation where he did well and then went to NYCFC and ran into a corporate wall that thinks it knows how to win in this league. He's certainly experienced and can meld a team together. But, he also wants player control and that's not going to happen under the system TFC has set up.
It was Giovinco who got the team in the playoffs. Without him, they would have finished at bottom of table. Vanney will b gone, he is not even a coach.
We wouldn't have finished bottom. No way. We would have been around what we were under Nelsen. 40 points or so and out of the playoffs in September but without Seba, Vanney would have been sacked in the summer.
Games like last night require your experienced players to step up. The average age of our starting 11 last night was 28.2. Vanney set a poor example, but there wasn't a leader on the field either.
How many solid CBs have come into the league through the draft in the past 2-3 years? Quite a few. Why do we consistently miss getting one?
I love Herculez but what football purpose did that signing fit? The last thing we needed was to spend $200 plus on another forward. I think Bez decided he is going to make his name in this league repatriating big American names using MLSE's money. And that's not necessarily good for the club.
Bring in a European coach. People say European coaches do badly, but IIRC the most winningest and third most winningest coaches in league history are European. Furthermore, if you look at European coaches who failed, they are not exactly top end, and many of them coached >10 years ago when the league was much worse.
The solution for TFC is simple. Sign a high end Italian coach who can speak English (English is very important). Italians have historically taken less talented teams, implemented structure, and have gotten them to perform. Vanney on the other hand managed to get a team that had reasonably talented players - two european defenders, 1 european midfielder, the best striker in the league + 2 US MNT players and drove them to very poor performance. It is unfortunate Donadoni was picked up by Bologna.
There are few good coaches available, not sure which speak English:
-Cesare Prandelli - Modern attacking football, led Italy to Euro 2012s, overall a good coach
-Luciano Spalletti - Brought the false 9 to the mainstream, in 2006-2007, all of his strikers were hurt so he put Totti as a lone striker, and implemented one of the first false 9 systems, and roma went on a huge unbeaten streak.
-Vincenzo Montella - Good coach, flexible tactics, not too defensive, coached a successful Fiorentina team until having a fall out with management.
Stay away from:
-Fabio Capello - Way too old school, strict 4-4-2 system, successful way too long ago
-Zdenek Zeman - Born in Czech republic, but moved to Italy in 1968, strategy is all out attack 4-3-3, which I think would make the problem worse
Honestly, Kantari & Perquis should have been sufficient. Both have played at high level. It has got to be the midfield (no DM) and the coaching.
If it's up to me, say bye to Altidore. Use the core DP on a CAM from South America, and use the other DP spot on a good DM. CBs can be signed at reasonable valuations for decent sums of $.
If it were me I would say 100% no to any Euro manager. Different league, different rules, different operation. Many have tried and failed and the bigger the name from bigger the league will be bigger the flop. Plus we don't need the roster completely overhauled and filled with a few Cheyrou level Euro players and scrubs because the new guy and team will have no idea the talent level at each MLS position. We did this with Winter and other teams gave bombed with their own experiments.
And no high risk DPs from elsewhere either unless DM. They are all a dice roll.
Bon voyage, Vanney. We gave you a full season. You were a snappy dresser.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
The biggest game in our history was essentially over in 20 minutes. There has to be something happening at a coaching level for a team to be that flat.
That list of names isn't realistic though.
The problem being pulling a top tier manager to a second tier league isn't easy, let alone to a club lacking stability with a revolving door of head coaches.
It's possible to explain away some individual problems. Williams slipping and setting up the 2nd goal was a fuck up. But looking at the last three games as a whole, it has all the signs of a collapse of confidence.
More: the thing that I struggle with is, how could things go so right in the game vs RB and then so wrong everything after?
Last edited by Detroit_TFC; 10-30-2015 at 07:51 AM.
definitely an isseu for me, that being said he has in the past shown the capability and know how to make adjustments. I give him another year, think we would be repeating our mistakes if we fired him. Kreis is tempting tho but also feel we would have to fire Bez too. Dont think we need to do a whole make over yet again after our best season to date. Once again ill refer to Kreis' first year and following years.
Do think that at the time we tried adn thought we had addressed our defensive issues which we obviously didnt. Itll be a big issue for Bez and Vanney to deal with in hte post season. Big question will be whether we can get rid of Kantari before his contract is done, otherwise we are gonna have like 8 CBs on our roster with a new one coming in. Also i do hold how much Findlay played against Vanney, bit worried he stays on with his inflated contract.
I dunno if we should blame Vanney, he's not a great manager but he's adequate for this league and he has really crappy players to work with for his backline. He's also been learning and progressing, he's better than he was last year.
I dunno if we should blame Bez. it's pretty clear that Lieweke interfered pretty much with the roster, and insisted on hiring 3 big name DPs. Having so much tied up in 3 offensive players (who are away all of the time for their NT games) results in having almost no cap space (salary budget) for the defenders and a decimated roster every time FIFA dates roll around.
So I think Lieweke should go. Handily, he already is heading out the door.
I would replace Vanney at this point only if someone playing a very similar style (Kreis) would be coming in. I would 100% support Kreis with Vanney back to an assistant role. Vanney is still learning, he has grown a lot and will eventually be a decent coach.
OTOH, I would not be surprised at all if Vanney is given the heave-ho. It's a game of results.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
A coach shouldn't be able to survive this. Sorry.
That argument doesn't make sense as if we didn't have Giovinco we would have had something (one good player, 2 or 3 much better defensive players etc) in place of him.
Let's say we didn't have Giovinco but had 2 good quality MLS centre backs for the same amount of Cap value - we wouldn't have been last as the defense would have been better.
Oldtimer always makes sense
I just see it this way: Vanney got us to the play offs for the first time in our history. He was asking to get to the play offs, and he succeeded. Firing him would be like saying "you did what we asked for, but its still not good enough, goodbye". So then what would have been "good enough". Second round of play offs? Third round? Finalist? Winner? Where does the "success" barrier fall?
It always hurts losing in a competition, no matter where you fail. And I tell all you guys - I've been to a Wembley Cup final and saw my team loose - it doesn't feel ANY better going all the way and losing - you may as well fail earlier. And I suspect that many of you guys would still say "Vanney out" even if they got to the final and lost. It hurts - but being emotionally reactive isn't the answer.
Vanney got us to the play offs for the first ever time in our history. In my opinion that indicates that is is more than capable of getting to the play offs next season too. He will be a better coach next season, he will have a better defence next season, there is no reason whatsoever to believe he couldn't get to the play offs again.
However, we get another coach now, that coach will almost certainly rip this squad apart and we will start over again. Chances of play offs next season if we do that - I would say much lower than keeping Vanney - who has proved he can get us there.
Vanney In.
(just my opinion!).
Small consolation but IMO next season, even the worst that Vanney can do to mess up won't compare to how big a train wreck Capello would be at NYCFC.
I feel sorry for Vanney. He had been assistant coach at Chivas, the least desirable team in MLS. Out if the blue he gets picked to be Head Coach of TFC and given the richest payroll in the league. Who wouldn't say yes and give it a go? For me it's not about the lack of quality of the back four - defending starts in the mid-field and is about a team system. This is the coach first and foremost. He has abdicated his responsibility.
So should he replaced? Of course and we should be prepared to pay DP money to get the right coach. I don't by the stupid "has to have MLS experience " - they have to be a good proven soccer coach. I'd put the boat out for Carl Robinson and possibly 2-3 other MLS coaches... Unlikely to be able to get the best guys. Then look to Europe for a very good manager with something to prove there are many good available coaches there. I don't trust this organization to transition a new manager in though . Likely to fire him spend 2-3 months searching and appoint an underwhelming manager late in the post season.
Last edited by Hamilton_Red; 10-30-2015 at 08:54 AM.
Hope the new boss would go with experience.
It is tiring ( and insult to football IMHO ) to see the team with the highest payroll run by amateurs.
First, I think Vanney should go. Is he an adequate MLS level manager? If by adequate you mean mediocre then yes. His personality matches the team. Drab and middle of the road. 15 wins, 15 losses, 58 goals for, 58 goals against, 11-5-1 home, 4-10-3 away. That right there is mediocre. He has had more than one season to correct the defensive issues and nothing was done. He is at Downsview every day so I assume he should recognize the short comings of the defenders we (but mostly he) acquired and if a good manager knew the problems then he would alter the game plan to cover those weaknesses. Do all the teams have cracker CBs and FBs? No, a lot of them are shit too but the difference is that the manager doesn't stick to his game plan of sending FBs forward and not giving the back line cover. That's Vanney. Not getting the team up for the biggest matches in our history? That's Vanney too. He carries the most blame on the squad.
Second is Bez and he is very close to going. Yes TL stuck his nose in and yeah, we got DPs but if they fell in any MLS GM's lap and the funds were there then all of them would have done the same. Actually of the 3 the only one that the whole league may not have taken prior to this season was Seba as he was expensive and an unknown quantity in MLS. Anyone would have taken a Bradley/Altidore combo. The Bez issue is the next level of player. Kantari, Perquis, Cheyrou, Findley, Moore, & Gomez all add up to well over $1M and despite some good moments from Perquis (occasionally) and Cheyrou (early in the year), that is a lot of money wasted with not much in return. Yes the DPs cost a mil on their own against the cap but right there in these players there is more money being wasted for a lot less. Is Jozy the best FW? No, but he is good MLS quality. For the $400K-ish he costs against the cap he provides WAY more than Findley, Moore, & Gomez for less and that's where the mismanagement is. If you scan Bez's history at mid level signings his track record is very poor. As long as that is poor then we will be shit as that is the difference between a shite/mediocre MLS squad to an elite one.
Lastly Lieweke is going to Beckham-land so that sorts itself without much hassle and we now have a president who knows what's going on in the league. That is a plus right there.
That didn't happen though. He got brought in to head the academy as that was his level of experience and then got promoted when they sacked Nelsen.
Either Bradley or Vanney needs to go. I said it earlier in the season, but Vanney does not command the locker room. Bradley has far too influence on how things are run for merely a player.
Now that Tim L is gone, either Bradley gets sold or traded, or Vanney gets sacked. There can be only one leader calling the shots.
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
Posting Permissions
Great love does not exist without joy and without great suffering ,that's why One club is worth only as much as its fans !