The Vanney Era Deathwatch Thread

[T-boy]

How about passing in front of your own goal? I told 13 year-olds not to do that when I was coaching. Yet that is what led to one of Montreal's goals in our playoff game. Is that on Vanney or do we have players that aren't just good enough? We're talking basics here, folks.

Central D's pass it back and forth all the time in every league - however you can't coach a player not to slip over at the vital moment. That was just one of those things. Like when that goally threw the ball in his own net, or players score own goals. These things happen and I don't think its on the coach, that would be a little harsh (unless it happens over and over again, in which case you get the player checked out as they are clearly unsteady on their feet, or purposely scoring that own goal!).

[Ultra & Proud]

I would take someone lie Jason Kries any day over some Big name European guy with no MLS experience.

This right here. No question.

[Calcio]

The problem with European coaches is that they don't know how to work with shit players.

In the MLS, your team will have players that are shit, however, unlike europe where you can just go and buy a better version for that position at the next window, you have to figure out how to play with the shit you have and not get exposed/killed for it.

Dan Gargan and Chad Barrett have both won an MLS cup in the last 5 years. Shitty players exist on Championship teams. You just need a guy who knows how to use them.

Also - from a GM standpoint - if you are going to get shit players into your squad, make sure they are not playing up the spine in critical positions.

Anyways - point being is Euro coaches with that sort of talent are hard to find.

See Albania National Team example. There are many shit players in Europe, and many coaches who deal with them. These coaches didn't spring up and begin in the top flight. Look at two of the better coaches in Italy right now - Sarri. Sarri as recently as 2011 was coaching a team in Serie D, eventually coaching Empoli from Serie B to Serie A. You don't need Jose Mourinho. You need a smart, tactically inclined coach, and there are many of these that have worked with teams of many talent levels.

[Ultra & Proud]

See Albania National Team example. There are many shit players in Europe, and many coaches who deal with them. These coaches didn't spring up and begin in the top flight. Look at two of the better coaches in Italy right now - Sarri. Sarri as recently as 2011 was coaching a team in Serie D, eventually coaching Empoli from Serie B to Serie A. You don't need Jose Mourinho. You need a smart, tactically inclined coach, and there are many of these that have worked with teams of many talent levels.

But those Euro teams have players who learned football from young ages and have some proper training. The skills are lacking but they are way ahead of the low average MLSer. Lots of what you get here is NCAA trained junk. And worse.

And then you have the convoluted rules, the centralized allocation BS, and the refs. Good luck finding a sensible Italian coach who can think his way around all of that mess. Even the previously mentioned Schallibaum and Backe had problems in these areas.

[jazzy]

This right here. No question.

Why not Mike Petke also ?

[OgtheDim]

Why not Mike Petke also ?

I'm not sure if he's all that good tactically.

[MightyDM]

The biggest game in our history was essentially over in 20 minutes. There has to be something happening at a coaching level for a team to be that flat.

This.

[MightyDM]

I feel sorry for Vanney. He had been assistant coach at Chivas, the least desirable team in MLS. Out if the blue he gets picked to be Head Coach of TFC and given the richest payroll in the league. Who wouldn't say yes and give it a go? For me it's not about the lack of quality of the back four - defending starts in the mid-field and is about a team system. This is the coach first and foremost. He has abdicated his responsibility.

Exactly.

[jazzy]

I don't think Vanney is a good coach. But he's also early on in his career. I'd be fine with just getting a GM who can scout talent properly, or knows how to hire a fucking scout. This is probably a good point, OT. We're always going to have a majority US/Can players, and they'll never adapt quickly enough for most European coaches. They just don't have the read of the game. That Drogba goal last night was a great example. Eight players (!) ball watching.

Is it on Vanney to get a player to follow the basics? Or should we be signing players to begin with who can do that?

I see bad signs from him. He mixes and matches lineups and formations too much, and tinkering nearly always ends badly when its continual in football. At the same time, I'm genuinely interested to see where we'd have been with a defence.

Question is reverse it . Take away Gio and then the coach really matters ! Would we be stable and competitive as a team ? Give our past coaches Gio , I dare say they'd be in heaven . In short as a season ticket holder , I need some form of hope? Excitement ? We didn't even lose with class . Unfortunately the blame has to fall somewhere . EG KC vs Portland , 2 teams defining a playoff game !

[jazzy]

See Albania National Team example. There are many shit players in Europe, and many coaches who deal with them. These coaches didn't spring up and begin in the top flight. Look at two of the better coaches in Italy right now - Sarri. Sarri as recently as 2011 was coaching a team in Serie D, eventually coaching Empoli from Serie B to Serie A. You don't need Jose Mourinho. You need a smart, tactically inclined coach, and there are many of these that have worked with teams of many talent levels.

Somehow Montreal coach is lost in all this , he's kicked ass !

[jazzy]

I'm not sure if he's all that good tactically.

You would probably be more informed on that than me , but his input at game time reminds me of KC's coach , who seems to simply control the refs .

[Ultra & Proud]

I'm not sure if he's all that good tactically.

But probably better than Vanney.

[notthesun]

On the foreign coach issue - we have a case study from this season. Owen Coyle coached Houston to a 42 point, -7 GD, 8th place Western conference finish. You're not likely to find a more experienced guy willing to come to MLS (rumors of Capello to NYCFC notwithstanding). He certainly didn't revolutionize the Dynamo or coach his opponents out of their pants this year.

As things stand I still lean towards keeping Vanney and getting a new GM. I really doubt hiring a foreign coach ends well for us. Kreis would certainly be an interesting proposition, especially since I wouldn't see us hiring him as a complete reboot of what we've done so far. But we'll have to see if he becomes available in the first place.

[Super]

On the foreign coach issue - we have a case study from this season. Owen Coyle coached Houston to a 42 point, -7 GD, 8th place Western conference finish. You're not likely to find a more experienced guy willing to come to MLS (rumors of Capello to NYCFC notwithstanding). He certainly didn't revolutionize the Dynamo or coach his opponents out of their pants this year.

As things stand I still lean towards keeping Vanney and getting a new GM. I really doubt hiring a foreign coach ends well for us. Kreis would certainly be an interesting proposition, especially since I wouldn't see us hiring him as a complete reboot of what we've done so far. But we'll have to see if he becomes available in the first place.

There's good and bad examples. Owen Coyle wouldn't qualify as the successful/experienced coach I'd want for TFC.

I will lose ALL respect for our new President if he keeps Vanney on. GONE! But I'll be back at BMO for more bad coaching/tactics from Vanney just the same.

[jabbronies]

On the foreign coach issue - we have a case study from this season. Owen Coyle coached Houston to a 42 point, -7 GD, 8th place Western conference finish. You're not likely to find a more experienced guy willing to come to MLS (rumors of Capello to NYCFC notwithstanding). He certainly didn't revolutionize the Dynamo or coach his opponents out of their pants this year.

As things stand I still lean towards keeping Vanney and getting a new GM. I really doubt hiring a foreign coach ends well for us. Kreis would certainly be an interesting proposition, especially since I wouldn't see us hiring him as a complete reboot of what we've done so far. But we'll have to see if he becomes available in the first place.

Unless a guy like Sigi Schmidt comes along, I'm leaning very slightly towards keeping Vanney.
I don't want another low-mid level manager coming in - it doesn't make sense. It would be starting from where we began. We need to be at another level with who we bring in.

They need a defensive line upgrade, big time. That should be the focus from here until game 1 of next season.
That includes solidifying what roles Bradley and Cheyrou are suppose to do when on the field.

They should be rolling with 1 starting lineup - minus 1-2 changes at most per game (player and formation should remain very similar) . Not 7 change lineup overhaul that we saw every game this year - up until the last game when we stuck with a shit lineup that shit the bed days before.

[Auzzy]

I wasn't sure where to stick this, would be pertinent to a couple of threads... I really like this article by John Molinaro. Touches on much of what we're talking about here:

Brutally honest self-evaluation needed by TFC:
http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/tfc-t...-bill-manning/

[ManUtd4ever]

I advocated patience with Vanney, but the fact that we made the playoffs in 6th place in a weak conference, finished the season with an abysmal goals against record, and got thoroughly embarrassed by an arch rival in our lone playoff game is hardly an endorsement of the coach, especially when you factor in our payroll and our roster.

We needed 1 measly point in our final two regular season games following an inspiring win against NYRB to guarantee a pivotal home playoff date, and Vanney decided to change the lineup and our tactical approach.

The roster was somewhat flawed, but there should be no doubt that this team underachieved this season.

If we have the opportunity to hire a coach with a greater pedigree, the decision should be a no brainer.

[vortexdr]

But those Euro teams have players who learned football from young ages and have some proper training. The skills are lacking but they are way ahead of the low average MLSer. Lots of what you get here is NCAA trained junk. And worse.

And then you have the convoluted rules, the centralized allocation BS, and the refs. Good luck finding a sensible Italian coach who can think his way around all of that mess. Even the previously mentioned Schallibaum and Backe had problems in these areas.

Hmm you actually bring up good points...Basic translation youth coaching in north American countries still absolute shit i guess?

[MikeM]

See Albania National Team example. There are many shit players in Europe, and many coaches who deal with them. These coaches didn't spring up and begin in the top flight. Look at two of the better coaches in Italy right now - Sarri. Sarri as recently as 2011 was coaching a team in Serie D, eventually coaching Empoli from Serie B to Serie A. You don't need Jose Mourinho. You need a smart, tactically inclined coach, and there are many of these that have worked with teams of many talent levels.

The first difference you'll notice between Sarri and basically any coach in NA is the coaching of the back line. In Italy, just the back four alone is worthy of immense coaching and drilling. I love Sarri and think he's a great coach but there are quite a few guys like him in Italy. That just highlights the differences in the way the game is played and coached there vs. here.

If you take any good Italian coach and give them this roster, they will finish much higher. You don't need great players to hold a certain shape. You don't need great players to realize that the CBs can never, under any circumstance, be without cover. Once they are without cover they have to make tough decisions (and bad players can't make those tough decisions). You cover them up and you keep them in line. Once you let them maraud around the pitch, they start getting in between balls, they find themselves in wide areas. The whole team goes to shit.

Then once they're covered you can get into how connected they should be. When to step up. How far should they drop, etc. But you have to coach the shit out of that. I've never seen a TFC team come close to Italian level execution defensively.

It's not even close to "San Marino hold on for dear life to an 8-0 loss" level defensively. It's somehow worse. Defenders have to know how to play off each other just as much as attackers. And also, in all the time I've spent with youth soccer in Canada, I've never seen defending coached. And if it is, it's maybe 5% of the practice time in relation to other areas of the pitch.

But then you have to expand on that and include the midfielders and forwards in your defensive tactics. Sometimes I couldn't continue watching TFC games when I see the "two banks of four" spread 20 yards apart with opponents constantly finding space in between those banks. It's like the anti-thesis of tactically correct defending. It's everything NOT to do.

[nascarguy]

the team though they were going to win the supporters cup after they made it in to the playoffs at 2nd then they shit bed after that

[Richard]

The first difference you'll notice between Sarri and basically any coach in NA is the coaching of the back line. In Italy, just the back four alone is worthy of immense coaching and drilling. I love Sarri and think he's a great coach but there are quite a few guys like him in Italy. That just highlights the differences in the way the game is played and coached there vs. here.

If you take any good Italian coach and give them this roster, they will finish much higher. You don't need great players to hold a certain shape. You don't need great players to realize that the CBs can never, under any circumstance, be without cover. Once they are without cover they have to make tough decisions (and bad players can't make those tough decisions). You cover them up and you keep them in line. Once you let them maraud around the pitch, they start getting in between balls, they find themselves in wide areas. The whole team goes to shit.

Then once they're covered you can get into how connected they should be. When to step up. How far should they drop, etc. But you have to coach the shit out of that. I've never seen a TFC team come close to Italian level execution defensively.

It's not even close to "San Marino hold on for dear life to an 8-0 loss" level defensively. It's somehow worse. Defenders have to know how to play off each other just as much as attackers. And also, in all the time I've spent with youth soccer in Canada, I've never seen defending coached. And if it is, it's maybe 5% of the practice time in relation to other areas of the pitch.

But then you have to expand on that and include the midfielders and forwards in your defensive tactics. Sometimes I couldn't continue watching TFC games when I see the "two banks of four" spread 20 yards apart with opponents constantly finding space in between those banks. It's like the anti-thesis of tactically correct defending. It's everything NOT to do.

Really good points here.

I think there is a coaching problem, maybe not all of the problem is on Vanney though, I'm curious as to what his staff is actually doing in training, so many basic problems like having 6 guys watching a ball float in to Drogba make me think about what the fuck they're doing in training.

[ronzilla]

A good tacticion from Europe could take Chicago into the top 5-6th place without even making any roster changes. Just imagine where the reds would be with a good tactical coach.

How many times did you see montreal attacking with only 3 players in the backline? Its laughable. This is all on vanney, who is currently leeching off of Giovinco's success to protect his job.

[OgtheDim]

Question is reverse it . Take away Gio and then the coach really matters ! Would we be stable and competitive as a team ? !

We'd be Chicago.

And Montreal without Drogba? And Seattle without Martins and Dempsey? Its an arguement that means nothing cause the player exists.

[ag futbol]

Somehow Montreal coach is lost in all this , he's kicked ass !

I'd like to give Bernie some credit. He's like their Dero but quietly goes about his business.

[Detroit_TFC]

I fear that the type of foreign manager that everyone would feel was decent enough to be worth it, isn't looking for work in North America.

[Calcio]

The first difference you'll notice between Sarri and basically any coach in NA is the coaching of the back line. In Italy, just the back four alone is worthy of immense coaching and drilling. I love Sarri and think he's a great coach but there are quite a few guys like him in Italy. That just highlights the differences in the way the game is played and coached there vs. here.

If you take any good Italian coach and give them this roster, they will finish much higher. You don't need great players to hold a certain shape. You don't need great players to realize that the CBs can never, under any circumstance, be without cover. Once they are without cover they have to make tough decisions (and bad players can't make those tough decisions). You cover them up and you keep them in line. Once you let them maraud around the pitch, they start getting in between balls, they find themselves in wide areas. The whole team goes to shit.

Then once they're covered you can get into how connected they should be. When to step up. How far should they drop, etc. But you have to coach the shit out of that. I've never seen a TFC team come close to Italian level execution defensively.

It's not even close to "San Marino hold on for dear life to an 8-0 loss" level defensively. It's somehow worse. Defenders have to know how to play off each other just as much as attackers. And also, in all the time I've spent with youth soccer in Canada, I've never seen defending coached. And if it is, it's maybe 5% of the practice time in relation to other areas of the pitch.

But then you have to expand on that and include the midfielders and forwards in your defensive tactics. Sometimes I couldn't continue watching TFC games when I see the "two banks of four" spread 20 yards apart with opponents constantly finding space in between those banks. It's like the anti-thesis of tactically correct defending. It's everything NOT to do.

I completely agree with you. Sarri is one example of a good Italian coach. Eusebio Di Francesco is another. TFC just needs a coach from Italy who can speak English. He doesn't need to be an Antonio Conte.

My favourite quote by Maldini: "If I have to make a tackle then I have already made a mistake."

And this stuff you highlight is why Italian teams spend so much time training without the ball.

[Oldtimer]

I wasn't sure where to stick this, would be pertinent to a couple of threads... I really like this article by John Molinaro. Touches on much of what we're talking about here:

Brutally honest self-evaluation needed by TFC:
http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/tfc-t...-bill-manning/

Good find.

[Ultra & Proud]

I completely agree with you. Sarri is one example of a good Italian coach. Eusebio Di Francesco is another. TFC just needs a coach from Italy who can speak English. He doesn't need to be an Antonio Conte.

My favourite quote by Maldini: "If I have to make a tackle then I have already made a mistake."

And this stuff you highlight is why Italian teams spend so much time training without the ball.

So I can safely assume that Italy is the only country with tactically adept coaching.

Their frequent string of international success means it has to work here right? RIGHT?

[Calcio]

So I can safely assume that Italy is the only country with tactically adept coaching.

Their frequent string of international success means it has to work here right? RIGHT?

Watch Serie A vs. other leagues and the focus on tactics is clear. Italians have been achieving more with less for decades. If we're looking for a coach that will bring structure to the team, the best option is Italian.

[SirBobSaget]

I wasn't sure where to stick this, would be pertinent to a couple of threads... I really like this article by John Molinaro. Touches on much of what we're talking about here:

Brutally honest self-evaluation needed by TFC:
http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/tfc-t...-bill-manning/

Excellent article from Molinaro. Kristian Jack had an equally on point write up here. Both pretty much echo the inability to shore up the CB and RB issues we all knew about a year ago, plus the coach's insane decision to keep going with what didn't work in the very same situation 4 days earlier.

Look at the deadwood players earning over 200k on TFC: Findley, Gomez, Kantari, Moore, Perquis (maybe) -> 5

Compare to VWC: Rosales (maybe?) -> 1
Compare to Mtl: Cooper (only because of injury) ->1

TFC throwing away well over 1 million on subpar player.