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As much as ronzilla and company seem like they must be a blast at parties, I think calling this one of the biggest wins in franchise history is equally hilarious (unless you were referring to the scoreline specifically).Originally Posted by charlieocc
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
That's what you'd call gloating? It's quite acceptable to celebrate a win on a supporters site. Regardless how we won.
That said, there wasn't much in the first quote on how we won either.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
If we would have beat them 1-0 there would be a ton of complaining and honestly rightly so. We scored 5 and did exactly what we needed to do given the circumstances. Don't think many of us are taking more from the game then is needed. We broke down an undermanned team that was bunkering and we did it with class on several of the goals. I believe a couple of years ago (under Nelson for sure) we lost against a 10 man Chivas side. At the end of the day we took three points against a conference rival, got Jozy some confidence and had a clean sheet. Perfect day. That is what I am taking away from the game.
Edit- My get 4 more goals comment is LOL. I saw Duane on twitter posting about potential backlash from not crushing this team because of the fan base. Wanted to post something postive and she worked out!
7 shots in the first 30 minutes. Took the foot off the gas with the red card (as a lot of teams do). Vanney talks to them at half time about maintaining tempo and moving the ball quicker. They do so in the second half and win.
Spot on. Now its time to take the confidence into the next game which should be a good one.
Look, it's a game we should win, we won it - with some style, as we have previously against the lesser teams. Nice to get back on track - Vanney gets credit for it (as he should).
Question of whether we can compete with the better teams in this league remains unanswered. That's just matter-of-fact... Nobody is going to consider Orlando a measuring stick.
My post does come off more grinchy than I thought..I apologize. It was a good win, one we deserved. The real test is if they can build on it the next couple of games but this win is good for confidence. Hopefully Altidore is back to good.
I agree, I really hate it when we win 5-0. I'd much rather grind out a 2-1 win.
Oldtimer, we only win when our offense is clicking on all cylinders, this will not have every days, so we have dropped a lot the points over the season, because we do not now how to defend and battle through defences, and win 1-0 or 2-1. I use Mou logic, I would rather win 5 games 1-0, then win one out of five 5-0.
From the Guardian
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blo...ty-fc-montrealRumours of Greg Vanney’s impending firing this season has surfaced perhaps even more frequently than speculation of Javier Hernandez’s mooted move to MLS, and indeed questions over the 41-year-old’s inexperience and suitability for the job persist. But against Orlando City the former USA defender finally demonstrated his credentials, making the tactical shift that set his side on course for a comprehensive victory. After all this time, and all those dismal appointments, TFC might actually have a manager capable of affecting performances in the way managers at other functioning teams are meant to.
Interesting perspective tbf
^ He has effected performances, we are better offensively, and so in games such as last Saturday's when the over team is down one and then two men, our offense shines. What he has not been able to affect is against teams that defend well, and our own team defense.
The question is, though, not "is Vanney good enough to coach in Serie A or in the EPL?" Clearly he's not. What's relevant is "does he make more mistakes than the average MLS coach?" and "are his tactics as good as the average MLS coach?" I would say that at this point he is actually slightly above-average. We always look at the Kreises and the Arenas of the league, but there are a dozen low-profile coaches that do a job that is "good enough" to last in MLS. Not one coach has been fired yet this year in the whole league! Vanney has more tactical knowledge than your average MLS coach due to his stay in France.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
If only we could have stopped at 2-0 then saved 3 goals for Montreal.
Road Trips: July 7 2007 Chicago, July 22nd 2007 Columbus, August 11 2007 NY, October 13 2007 LA, March 29 2008 Columbus, May 24th 2008 DC, May 26 2008 Montreal, June 28th 2008 NE, March 7-11-14 2009 Charleston, March 28 2009 Columbus, April 10 2010 New England, May 12 2010 Montreal, April 7 2012 Montreal, March 16 2013 Montreal , June 3 2014 Montreal, March 14 2015 Columbus
Twitter: @RPBPhil
Defense has been an issue for sure. But to fire a guy AGAIN because everything isn't perfect would be completely insane. We are continuously changing our backline and haven't' had stability there all season. But if we take these growing pains now and learn from them in the next few years we could become a team that is continously good. We wont' get there by constantly turning over our roster/management though.
The issue with Vanney is whether he can translate his ideas to on the field performance of athletes. Jury is well out on that, as the high rate of conceded first goals in first halves of games shows. Its really quite shocking that a former defender has such a poor record of coaching defence. Here's hoping he is smart enough to figure that out (is he too aggressive tactically? too much turnover? Not enough reps in practice and too much talking? Poor goalkeeping at critical moments? etc).
The team has had some great moments this year and is exciting to watch, but he has not yet established he can coach defence, in fact the opposite.
How much of that is on Vanney, though? Our defenders are hardly world class. Again and again it's "lack of concentration" that's given as the cause for goals. Look, if we're stuck with defenders with attention deficit, the best coaches couldn't make them stop leaking goals.
Now Vanney has changed the midfield formation to shore up our defenders... let's hope his strategy works.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
I hope so too, but the original formation was on him. We were a lot more solid defensively last year pre Vanney, with arguably worse players, just a more conservative approach. we saw this earlier when we reverted to a flat 4-4-2 to win a couple of games before going to the diamond.
I am not in the locker room but it strikes me that he is either naïve or communicates by talking not by actions, endless repetitions on the practice ground.
Not advocating his dismissal, but he needs to sort this out or we are done early this year.
But that's the thing. Being conservative doesn't mean you're going to win more games. You're just going to concede less. If last year has taught us anything, it's that playing conservatively in a flat 4-4-2 in MLS doesn't provide a sustainable method to get results.
If you look at all the top teams like SKC, NYRB, Seattle, LA, RSL etc, neither play a highly conservative counter-attacking 4-4-2.
And we saw the problems with it when they played Houston at home the next game. Little possession and being outnumbered in midfield. To get Altidore and Giovinco on the pitch and get them on the ball consistently, the only suitable formation that he could play was the diamond. It's that or play 3 at the back (something we've done).we saw this earlier when we reverted to a flat 4-4-2 to win a couple of games before going to the diamond.
I think Vanney knows his best formation is some sort of 4-5-1 so that he can get fullbacks high and still have sufficient defensive cover, but then he would have to drop either Altidore or Seba.
Last edited by PopePouri; 08-25-2015 at 03:25 PM.
Now that's revisionist to the extreme! Nelsen's win rate was 26%, I'm not sure how you can call that "solid defensively." Maybe you were going by goals against? 47 will probably be somewhat better than this year, we'll probably be in the low 50's, but we were hardly a defensive powerhouse under Nelsen and we lost way more games.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
Or he could just play Seba on thee left side of the 4-5-1/4-3-3/4-2-3-1 whatever. That's not a foreign position to him.
Seba doesn't defend well or defend in general, he's always high. For the first couple of games of the season, Altidore was forced out to the left of a 4-3-3, asked to defend the fullback and we weren't getting the best out of him.
Agreed. The statistical bias of playing conservatively means it looks like you're in a lot more games than you are. I could only roll my eyes at Nelson trotting out his usual smorgasbord of excuses week after week playing games of nothing football but always ready to offer we were "unlucky" not to score on some odd ball half chance.
Let's not forget we actually have the budget of a big club for MLS and I'd venture playing forward thinking makes more sense in this league right now (and in the box office).
I'm not all the way there on Vanney being the guy, but I have no desire to go back to the days of uninspiring garbage in the name of grinding out results (which never worked to begin with).
Last edited by ag futbol; 08-25-2015 at 07:56 PM.
I am not saying we should play a flat 4-4-2. I am saying that Vanney needs to sort out something that makes us far less porous. He happened to do it by going to a 4-4-2 and it worked for two games, the 4-2-3-1 worked to a degree versus Orlando, but they were at ten men most of the game. Three at the back didn't seem to work at all.
Nelsens teams am were far stingier than Vanneys. That isn't revisionist history at all. And I am not trying to reignite the coaching debate, merely to point out that with worse players a different coach could produce far tighter defence. So something in what Vanney is doing needs to be changed and can be changed.
we saw this last year when Vanney took over and the team dropped out of playoff contention, shipping a lot of bad goals, and a lot of early goals. It has come back again in the last eight games or so, leading to the changes versus Orlando. They worked, but....
I think the point being made re: Nelsen is that his teams were stingier in defense because he played bunkering, zero-ambition counter-attacking football. We gave away fewer goals or were on the wrong end of fewer routs under him because we stuck 11 men behind the ball and a good day meant hitting 40% possession. So sure, he got more defensively out of a worse group of players, but anyone would have playing that style, and it was never going to improve in terms of results.
That being said, the recent defensive issues are obviously concerning and Vanney deserves criticism over them, no question. We've conceded far more than you should expect, even for a team trying to push the game offensively as much as we do. But it's a red herring to say Nelsen crafted a solid defense in his time here... he just tried to win every game by parking the bus and crossing his fingers for a couple half chances for Defoe. It was a by-product of his poor tactics.
You are going by impressions, the stats don't back you up. Nelsen's team was slightly better, the records show it.
Preki's team was far stingier... typically would only give up a goal a game. Unfortunately Preki would usually lose 1-0. Is that really better?
Jose Mourinho himself couldn't take over a team near the end of a season and implement a completely different style of play and have them win.
You forget that Nelsen's method was classic English-style counter-attacking football. Vanney is playing a more continental style brand of football, with short-passing, playing the ball on the deck, etc. being the rule of play. Nelsen's style depended on English-style players, Vanney is looking for Italians and French players (or an Italian-trained American in Michael Bradley's case).
Vanney's style is certainly the future of MLS 3.0, and looks a lot like classic RSL in some aspects. What we are needing is a couple of defensive anchors to make the whole system work. In the mean-time, Vanney has to modify things to make sure that our defense doesn't leak goals.
The issues this year were different than last year's, even if excessive goals-against is in common.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
That's what I remember, too.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
I agree that Nelsens' record is a red herring, including the fact that we were in the play offs when he was fired, but for a different reason that you two - put Vanney's defensive record against any other coach in the league who has coached since he started about one year ago, and his teams will be the worst. And that is nothing to do with Nelsen. You argue that Nelsen bunkered, and relied excessively on Defoe having a moment of brilliance. I think that's a huge oversimplification. You could equally say Vanney has his teams kick the ball around and rely excessively on Giovinco's brilliance, as some posters do.
My only point is that the defensive issues are serious and have more to do with the coach than the players, who by and large are better than last years but have a worse defensive record, particularly at the beginning of games. I have no doubt that Vanney is intellectually capable of seeing this and figuring out solutions, but where I doubt is his ability to have the players deliver. I sure hope so - I love watching the team this year - but am seriously worried based on what we have seen thus far.
Well we did win 2-1 against Montreal now, I hope that pleases you, but I think we'd both agree we have a suspect defense still.
Just looking at this again. We did not "lose way more games" under Nelsen. That's not factual. And how many times did his teams give up the go ahead goal in the first half? For Vanney, it's almost every game. Let's be fair here.
Give your stats if your going to say somethings not factual.
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