The Vanney Era Deathwatch Thread

[jloome]

Better defenders would have helped, but no doubt our tactics were not right most of the time. Hence the raining in of goals.

None of this speaks well of Vanney.

I personally think that Kreis is a much better coach. Certainly a more accomplished coach. He's well respected, and there's a reason why NYCFC threw a million dollars at the guy. He's a top notch MLS coach from the highest shelf - but fair enough, TFC always finds a reason to pass up on solutions and instead embrace problems.

To me, the player quotes and Manning needing an answer as to "why they came out flat" speaks volumes about this team.

We once again hired an inexperienced coach.
We once again tinkered with the defense by first offending our only decent center back, then cutting him loose for a mystery injury.
We once again hired overly expensive foreign players who aren't up to the task.
WE once again hired a midfielder whose role is unknown and whose skill level/traits don't seem to gel. Bradley, meet Julian De Guzman.
We once again went into the season without really knowing whether our first-team goalkeeper was good enough.
We once again spent a fortune on a striker (Altidore) who looks disinterested much of the time.
We once again ignored the wings and our lack of ability there. Daniel Lovitz is about the only natural winger on the team and is USL level.

To that, we add Seba, which basically accounts for making sixth (which didn't exist last year as a playoff spot) and breaking goal records. IN doing so, we made a bad defense even worse and failed to fix anything else. Look at that list: is anyone really surprised by where we finished?

Same GM, same coach.... same results? I guess we'll see. But the very fact that we have a former defender GM who couldn't tell from their past history that Perquis and Kantari werent' worth the money, or that we have a coach who thinks his 34-year-old winger buddy from the 2010 WC team should be starting? Those don't bode particularly well. It just seems like a waste of an offseason, but I guess we'll see.

[Areathrasher]

I think it's been mentioned before but this has a whiff of Manning pulling a Shannahan and letting Bez/Vanney pull a Nonis/Carlyle.

[TearsForCheers]

I see your point OMY but what I can't get passed is the fact that we had the 2 most important games in the club's season, arguably their history, at the end, so you would expect a manager to put their best effort tactically and in motivating the team, and they get blown away 5-1 in those 2 games. Not that much difference with the debacle in NY years back. Even if you take into account the last 3 games with the win against NYRB, you still look at 7-2 when it matters most. People will say three games don't define a season, but I say those three games abolutely define the season, a couple of moments of brilliance from a special player and whole lot of defensive errors with questionable tactics and selections.

[gdg_9]

I think it's been mentioned before but this has a whiff of Manning pulling a Shannahan and letting Bez/Vanney pull a Nonis/Carlyle.

Except the Leafs were waiting on Babcock to be available.
TFC had Kreis available now, and it's not like there's another, better option that we know is likely to be available at the end of the season.

That's the big difference.

[jloome]

Except the Leafs were waiting on Babcock to be available.
TFC had Kreis available now, and it's not like there's another, better option that we know is likely to be available at the end of the season.

That's the big difference.

I think Kreis probably turned them down. Read this: http://www.hudsonriverblue.com/2015/...reis-was-fired

It explains what happened with NYFC, but the content of how the team broke down and why sounds AWFULLY similar to TFC.

[trane]

I want to say so much, but so much has been said. The bottom line there are so few reasons to keep Vanney and to except that we will be any better next season.

[jloome]

I want to say so much, but so much has been said. The bottom line there are so few reasons to keep Vanney and to except that we will be any better next season.

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up for me. The only way he turns into the guy overnight is if we make such substantial improvements to the non-DP roster that the players take care of it themselves. I don't seem him as a motivator, and our formations were all over the place, never settled. We playe timidly at times, and I got no sense that he was injecting the appropriate bravado and confidence into the side. We played like a bunch of nervous individuals far too often for it not to be partly the lack of an experienced, successful manager.

[moralis]

John Carver's available and interested in returning to MLS:

As the MLS coaching carousel begins to spin, some familiar names are beginning to surface. Sources tell Goal USA that former Toronto FC and Newcastle United manager John Carver is interested in a return to MLS. Carver coached Toronto FC in 2008 before resigning in early 2009. Carver then spent four years as an assistant coach with English Premier League side Newcastle United, most recently serving as caretaker manager to close out the 2014-2015 season.

http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/1110/...l?ICID=HP_BN_1

[TFC Cityboy]

To me, the player quotes and Manning needing an answer as to "why they came out flat" speaks volumes about this team.

We once again hired an inexperienced coach.
We once again tinkered with the defense by first offending our only decent center back, then cutting him loose for a mystery injury.
We once again hired overly expensive foreign players who aren't up to the task.
WE once again hired a midfielder whose role is unknown and whose skill level/traits don't seem to gel. Bradley, meet Julian De Guzman.
We once again went into the season without really knowing whether our first-team goalkeeper was good enough.
We once again spent a fortune on a striker (Altidore) who looks disinterested much of the time.
We once again ignored the wings and our lack of ability there. Daniel Lovitz is about the only natural winger on the team and is USL level.

To that, we add Seba, which basically accounts for making sixth (which didn't exist last year as a playoff spot) and breaking goal records. IN doing so, we made a bad defense even worse and failed to fix anything else. Look at that list: is anyone really surprised by where we finished?

Same GM, same coach.... same results? I guess we'll see. But the very fact that we have a former defender GM who couldn't tell from their past history that Perquis and Kantari werent' worth the money, or that we have a coach who thinks his 34-year-old winger buddy from the 2010 WC team should be starting? Those don't bode particularly well. It just seems like a waste of an offseason, but I guess we'll see.

nailed it

[trane]

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up for me. The only way he turns into the guy overnight is if we make such substantial improvements to the non-DP roster that the players take care of it themselves. I don't seem him as a motivator, and our formations were all over the place, never settled. We playe timidly at times, and I got no sense that he was injecting the appropriate bravado and confidence into the side. We played like a bunch of nervous individuals far too often for it not to be partly the lack of an experienced, successful manager.

And if you rebuild the roster do you not want to hand it to someone who will maximize its potential?

[MightyDM]

Are you adding playoffs and friendlies in there, or have they added four games to the season?

Its my understanding that tickets are priced over 19 games, 17 league and two CCL. Am I incorrect?

[ensco]

I think Kreis probably turned them down. Read this: http://www.hudsonriverblue.com/2015/...reis-was-fired

It explains what happened with NYFC, but the content of how the team broke down and why sounds AWFULLY similar to TFC.

That does sound familiar. Although I suspect Kreis is gone because Pirlo said "it's me or him" and that is not complicated. Soriano's mistake was in hiring an actual soccer executive in his management team, as opposed to a 32 year old to execute contracts for him, and that guy's hand picked rookie coach buddy.

Doubt Manning offered it to him. I bet they both (Manning and Kreis) know that it isn't the right time. Kreis is not the person to inherit this strategy or manage this roster.

You bring Kreis in if you are blowing it up. Which we are not doing, and shouldn't do, just yet. Make that call next summer.

To me this is obvious. Manning's remit is to manage/optimize the assets he was given, not to come in and cause the team to take a $50M loss on players two weeks after he got here, because a coach he likes and has a personal relationship with is available.

I also think people are overreacting to the "eight points from 8 games" thing. Vanney will not just be fired after 8 games if they have 6 points. (I would argue we looked pretty bad after our starting road trip even though we had 9 points btw.) He's simply trying to project urgency, to the player's first and foremost. There is a natural tendency to assume a new guy, if he doesn't change everything right away, is comfortable.

[pdubs]

Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/JulianTheIntern/status/662443706214129664

[jimiv]

Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/JulianTheIntern/status/662443706214129664

A lot of money but the senior guys in the locker room wouldn't be able to question their managers credentials or knowledge.

[Oldtimer]

To me this is obvious. Manning's remit is to manage/optimize the assets he was given, not to come in and cause the team to take a $50M loss on players two weeks after he got here, because a coach he likes and has a personal relationship with is available.

Overall I agree with you that probably both Manning and Kreis know it's not the right time. However, TFC wouldn't lose a full $50 million on disposing of their high-priced assets. They'd get sizable transfer fees for Giovinco and for Bradley (Altidore is another story, he most likely would be traded within MLS).

I know that TFC doesn't represent the lunch bucket team that Kreis would have built, but the style of play is not far from what he would want. Getting rid of Altidore and bringing in a stud DM and a RB would enable Kreis to play the style that he likes, a total blow up is not necessary. He could change the squad bit by bit.

[Ultra & Proud]

Just reading on ESPN that Bradley Sr. is leaving Norway for a 'bigger club'.

[MightyDM]

I cannot get past the last game and the adjustments that Vanney could have made to deal with the threat on the right flank: all of these worked earlier in the season at different points: Morrow at RB, Jackson in midfield; 4-2-3-1 with Jozy on the bench and Warner as part of the "2;" Warner in place of Findley in front of Jackson. Three simple adjustments, baffled as to why there were none. And Benching Kantari for Zavaleta given his performance in the first game should have been a given.

[Areathrasher]

Just reading on ESPN that Bradley Sr. is leaving Norway for a 'bigger club'.

Le Harve in Ligue 2

[Super]

It's tough getting a top coaching job in Europe. Even with a big resume like Bradley Sr. it's not like Ajax is calling him. Compare that to here where we hire people with no resume. No wonder we're 9 years deep with a single play-off round behind us.

[ensco]

Overall I agree with you that probably both Manning and Kreis know it's not the right time. However, TFC wouldn't lose a full $50 million on disposing of their high-priced assets. They'd get sizable transfer fees for Giovinco and for Bradley (Altidore is another story, he most likely would be traded within MLS).

I know that TFC doesn't represent the lunch bucket team that Kreis would have built, but the style of play is not far from what he would want. Getting rid of Altidore and bringing in a stud DM and a RB would enable Kreis to play the style that he likes, a total blow up is not necessary. He could change the squad bit by bit.

All three DPs make multiples of what they are worth. Maybe Gio's contract could be transferred, Defoe somehow got someone to give him $7M for 3 years,maybe same is possible for Gio. But Gio doesn't have the pedigree Defoe did, and Serie A isn't the EPL.

[nfitz]

Its my understanding that tickets are priced over 19 games, 17 league and two CCL. Am I incorrect?

You are not incorrect. Which is why when you divide almost any season ticket price since 2012 by 19, it's always a round number, or very occasionally leaves an exact 50 cent amount.

[Ultra & Proud]

I cannot get past the last game and the adjustments that Vanney could have made to deal with the threat on the right flank: all of these worked earlier in the season at different points: Morrow at RB, Jackson in midfield; 4-2-3-1 with Jozy on the bench and Warner as part of the "2;" Warner in place of Findley in front of Jackson. Three simple adjustments, baffled as to why there were none. And Benching Kantari for Zavaleta given his performance in the first game should have been a given.

Vanney many times during the season talked about us 'playing our game' and not adjusting our tactics to suit what others do but rather to make them adjust to us. Usually this came back to bite us at times when it shouldn't have.

In that you can safely assume that Vanney is either A) massively arrogant regarding his tactics and game plan or B) he is a clueless idiot who has no idea what he's doing.

[notthesun]

All three DPs make multiples of what they are worth. Maybe Gio's contract could be transferred, Defoe somehow got someone to give him $7M for 3 years,maybe same is possible for Gio. But Gio doesn't have the pedigree Defoe did, and Serie A isn't the EPL.

If they got shipped out they would both have to take pay cuts, but we'd pocket the transfer fee is what Oldtimer is saying (or whatever portion we're allowed to keep under MLS's weird rules). Giovinco for instance would easily shatter the record for an outgoing MLS player if he was sold this winter.

[jloome]

Vanney many times during the season talked about us 'playing our game' and not adjusting our tactics to suit what others do but rather to make them adjust to us. Usually this came back to bite us at times when it shouldn't have.

In that you can safely assume that Vanney is either A) massively arrogant regarding his tactics and game plan or B) he is a clueless idiot who has no idea what he's doing.

Teams tend to reflect their manager, and our team is arrogant; from Bradley's declaration that we no longer had defensive issues before the Columbus game, to Jackson's repeated attempts to stretch his leg eight feet and intercept near-impossible balls rather than run, to Kantari manhandling guys in the box on his first shift, to Findley trying to weave through three players, to Bradley shooting repeatedly from twenty-plus yards and skying them into the crowd.

We play arrogantly. Not confidently, arrogantly.

[MightyDM]

You are. Which is why when you divide almost any season ticket price since 2012 by 19, it's always a round number, or very occasionally leaves an exact 50 cent amount.

I think you mean "you are correct" ?! I said "Am I incorrect?"

[MightyDM]

Teams tend to reflect their manager, and our team is arrogant; from Bradley's declaration that we no longer had defensive issues before the Columbus game, to Jackson's repeated attempts to stretch his leg eight feet and intercept near-impossible balls rather than run, to Kantari manhandling guys in the box on his first shift, to Findley trying to weave through three players, to Bradley shooting repeatedly from twenty-plus yards and skying them into the crowd.

We play arrogantly. Not confidently, arrogantly.

You are right, and very well said. You must make a living writing or something...

[nfitz]

I think you mean "you are correct" ?! I said "Am I incorrect?"

I misread your comment as "am I correct" rather than "am I incorrect". You are not incorrect. You are correct. I have made a correction (or is that an incorrection) to my post).

[MightyDM]

I misread your comment as "am I correct" rather than "am I incorrect". You are not incorrect. You are correct. I have made a correction (or is that an incorrection) to my post).

i love the idea of you making an "incorrection" to your post.

besides, you are the only one to have done the homework to understand the ticketing for TFC, and well done at that. And thank you!

[ManUtd4ever]

All three DPs make multiples of what they are worth. Maybe Gio's contract could be transferred, Defoe somehow got someone to give him $7M for 3 years,maybe same is possible for Gio. But Gio doesn't have the pedigree Defoe did, and Serie A isn't the EPL.

If MLS transfers were more transparent, we would be able to prognosticate more accurately. If MLS covered portions of the transfer fees involved for our DPs, it would change the perspective as far as pondering trades involving Bradley and/or Altidore within the league. I agree that MLSE would take a bath financially if they tried to sell Bradley and Altidore overseas.

[ag futbol]

Stepping back and looking at this whole situation, I can't help but say the biggest issue here is the lack of a track record for Vanney / Bez.

If we look at some of the names that have come up (some half jokingly / some serious) you'd be loathe not to notice the irony of wanting to fire Vanney for not getting the most out of this team all while brining in other coaches who were more or less fired for having the same shortcoming (but have experience beyond their latest failures).

Don't interpret this as a vote of confidence in the coach (it's not). It's just enough to say sometimes I feel we're wearing the poop coloured glasses after suffering through years of this club's ineptitude.