Not a fan of Bradley ( vs. say Laba ), but Vanney, being a nice guy, is over his head.Originally Posted by Yohan
There is no point in developing coaches, since you can not sell them
There is a business case to get a good coach to develop players, and have a shot at entertaining fans in progress.
The record for European coaches without North American experience is terrible. Only 1 or 2 have ever made it beyond a year or two. (The obvious differences from European leagues is that you have multi-million dollar players playing alongside guys making $60k, you can't just buy a good player due to roster/cap restrictions -- most Euro coaches can't handle those things), PLUS you are looking at minimum 2 years to rebuild the team in the new coach's vision. So no playoffs next year. The idea just speaks of desperation: we can't attract much MLS talent so "lets just get someone from Europe and hope that it works against all odds."
If NYCFC are stupid enough to fire Kreis, though, I'd pick him up in a heart beat.
A truly good MLS coach is hard to find. If they were truly good they wouldn't be in MLS for the most part.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
I don't know how the responsibility divides up, and am not going to speculate. But the last thing we need is to turn over yet another coach. You cannot blame the coach for some of the mindless passing fails we had, you cannot blame him for seven guys ball watching while Drogba stands freely to knock in a ball. That shoes me a lack of discipline on the player's part. If you see five or six guys boxing an attacker, you don't need to join the crowd, look for outside threats. My feeling is changing the coach is not the answer. I don't feel firing Bezbatchenko is the answer either. You can coach people, but coaching does NOT bestow talent, intuition, or common sense upon a player. Whatever happens in the off-season, will happen without our consent, influence or involvement of any kind. All I hope for is to see a better defense next year. Giovinco cannot carry this team on his shoulders again like this.
You absolutely can sell coaches.
Porto got 13m from Chelsea for AVB
Swansea got 5m from Liverpool for Rogers.
There are plenty more examples but im too tired and hungover to remember harder
Last edited by Areathrasher; 10-30-2015 at 09:21 AM.
The more I think about it, the more I think Vanney & Bez should go.
Vanney for not adjusting the tactics to cover the defense, for not inspiring the squad, and for looking inept tactically at more times than a team with ambition can afford.
Bez for his poor record at signing decent mid level MLS talent.
I stand corrected, but still still think developing coach is an inferior business proposition vs getting a developed coach.You absolutely can sell coaches.
Porto got 13m from Chelsea for AVB
Swansea got 5m from Liverpool for Rogers.
There are plenty more examples but im too tired and hungover to remember harder
I'm leaning that way too.
Orlando will improve. The Union and Fire have made competent hires and could be on the upswing next season. Have a feeling the East won't be such a mess next year.
As I said many months ago...for the quality we're getting from Bradley and Altidore we are being severely fucked. 2 more Giovinco for that price.
It's all very simple; we overpay everywhere accept at the manager and GK positions.
Dump a truck load of money on Kreis' doorstep after he gets the sack and then sign a real GK with the savings we should get from dumping one of Perquis or Kantari.
Then start looking at a TAM DM and the re-entry draft to hopefully get MLS quality mid-level salary players and maybe even a pricey but MLS proven CB.
MLS is a capped league. When you ignore all the buzz about high value DP signings, success comes from how that cap is managed and what you get from your core non-DP players.
To win, you need to have guys making $75k play like they are worth $150k and guys making $150k play like they are worth $300k. That's where the manager comes in - to add value to that capped roster. I watched the other playoff games, and those clubs really don't have more quality than TFC. They are also dealing with the same cap we are, have injuries and overpaid players too.
The difference is that they are just more organized, efficient and play as a unit. They have a group of guys making two million that play like they are worth three or four. That's on the manager, and where we consistently get burned.
What about scouting? Our scouting dept. Under Nelson/Vanney seems to consist of who they once played with or saw. Scouting for Giovinco or Bradley is easy. Seems like identifying competent MLS level talent is has always been an issue.
With our resources we should have a top player acquisition model in place but it seems we let our managers see who is on their cell phone. Is this a Bez issue or does he merely get the contracts completed once the manager decides who he wants?
they scounted Findley
and discovered the diamond in the rough Kantari
to be fair they did find cheyrou, delgado, zavaleta and williams (who is a shit starter but good enough for depth)
The problem seems to be they are really hit and miss
Zavaleta is Vanney's cousin. Delgado I like and was a good pickup, Vanney knew him from Chivas. Williams is fine.
Kantari, Perquis and Cheyrou all have the french connection. First two Vanney played with, not sure about Cheyrou who I love but we need him 4 years younger.
My point is I have not seen any evidence of a scouting network Bez was apparently put in place other then who the manager at the time has already in his cell phone. Perquis and Kantari's resumes do not jump out at you for how they can be that stud CB we need. The mood on both of them were more of ???
Findley was a gamble on 250k or so.
To me the problem is their is very little evidence of ay kind of real scouting. Kevin Payne when he came in apparently saw we had zero scouting. Have not seen much evidence any is in place since that point.
+1000
Why the hell are we (as a Canadian team) overpaying for US internationals?! It makes no sense.
There are so many holes in this team, and that's on Bez. We played all year without a natural RB ffs.
We need to get younger and be smarter in the transfer market. Cheyrou and Morrow are getting up there in age so you can expect their performers to dip.
Who's in charge of player aquisitions at FC Dallas/NYRB/DC United? Get those guys. Imagine what they could do with our budget ..
2 year to rebuild? Montreal did it rather much faster
Last in 2014 now in the semis of the MLS cup
IMHO, I don't think we do have many holes on the team except for at CB and depth players. This week came down to being out managed. The difference is that Biello was able to adjust to how we were playing after 1 half (on Sunday) while after 2 games we couldn't adjust to how Mtl was playing. After seeing that Findley could not play infront of Jackson in the second half of Sunday's game, what did Vanney do? NOTHING. That is where the problem lies. Vanney cannot adjust to changes made over the course of the game. We made 0 adjustments from Sunday and got exposed hard for ineptness. Would have loved to see us line up like this:
Konopka
Morrow/Williams/Zavaleta/Morgan
Jackson/Bradley/ Cheyrou/Osorio
Altidore/Giovinco
Jackson wouldn't have as much of a defensive responsibility with Morrow in behind him.
We would get more from them with a proper manager and set up.
And with the cap what it is you could get two more Giovinco's for Kantari, Perquis, and Lovitz's salaries. That's where the failure is.
We need a coach who has failed before and learned from his mistakes to stay in this business.
It would be nice to get one of a few experienced with MLS ones, but if not, ANY experienced ( European or SA ) coach is way better than the ones TFC consistently chooses to hire.
I read that Larsun article and even he was critical of Vanney. You know it's bad when that happens.
How many experienced, successful European coaches have been here? Not that many. Lots of inexperienced guys, and of course they failed. No experience = poor management/tactics. Just like we see at our club. I would be all for signing a proper, experienced coach (with a winning record) from anywhere in the world who knows how to set the proper tactics and motivate a team to want to win. That's a HUGE part of coaching.
Joey has hired coaches who have similar philosophies to each other. Find someone like that for Toronto and I'm on-side for replacing Vanney. Vanney's problem is not with the overall theory of how to have a winning team (he copied it from Kreis). It's his lack of experience. I'd choose the real Kreis over the imitation any day.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
I'm not talking about Toronto. European coaches, even very experienced ones have almost always failed anywhere in MLS.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
If we must get back to this argument, would that be still fair to say that far more inexperienced coaches failed in this league, than experienced ( European ) coaches?
Who's fighting for the next Andorran or Luxembourgan manager? If he's successful get em over here ASAP!
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
At least they'd be used to managing scrubs.
Is there such thing as a successful Andorran or Luxembourgan manager?
If TFC is in the market for European players, it is not a crime to check out coaches who can actually manage these players.
No crime committed. Just commenting what's in Europe is more than 4 countries.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
yep and what will people want if we get Kreis/another coach and he gives us the exact same thing or something similar next year?Oldtimer always makes sense
I just see it this way: Vanney got us to the play offs for the first time in our history. He was asking to get to the play offs, and he succeeded. Firing him would be like saying "you did what we asked for, but its still not good enough, goodbye". So then what would have been "good enough". Second round of play offs? Third round? Finalist? Winner? Where does the "success" barrier fall?
It always hurts losing in a competition, no matter where you fail. And I tell all you guys - I've been to a Wembley Cup final and saw my team loose - it doesn't feel ANY better going all the way and losing - you may as well fail earlier. And I suspect that many of you guys would still say "Vanney out" even if they got to the final and lost. It hurts - but being emotionally reactive isn't the answer.
Vanney got us to the play offs for the first ever time in our history. In my opinion that indicates that is is more than capable of getting to the play offs next season too. He will be a better coach next season, he will have a better defence next season, there is no reason whatsoever to believe he couldn't get to the play offs again.
However, we get another coach now, that coach will almost certainly rip this squad apart and we will start over again. Chances of play offs next season if we do that - I would say much lower than keeping Vanney - who has proved he can get us there.
Vanney In.
(just my opinion!).
Fire the coach?
Remember how thats worked for us for the last 9 years?
I said that about Giovinco as a Juve fan last winter. Money talks, and all of those guys are unemployed. Spalletti last coached in Russia (which isn't exactly a highly coveted location), Prandelli in Turkey, and well Montella is an exception.
You've seen stranger moves, such as Marcelo Lippi going to China. IMO Spalletti would make a lot of sense.
Now for a mini-rant:
As for the constant comments on European coaches failing in MLS, there are only 3 points you need to completely de-bunk that:
-The coaches that have coached in MLS that are European are 2nd tier - most without any real top-flight experience.
-Most of this "poor performance" happened between 10-15 years ago, which given the growth of the league and players is not comparable at all.
-Not all European coaches are equivalent: lumping Italian, German, Spanish, Portuguese, and English all together makes no sense, because the styles of play in those games are completely different. An obvious example here would be the emphasis on tactics that Italian coaches place vs. English coaches.
With TFC the issue is defensive organization, which Italians are specialists in, so it certainly wouldn't hurt. The key is ensuring the coach is experienced, can contribute to the personnel selection, and can speak English. The argument against European coaches is as weak as the argument suggesting Giovinco would be a flop because the MLS is too physical. Fact is Europe is where the best coaches are, so if you want the best, go to Europe.
My theory is that until Giovinco's press conference, the entire front office & coaching staff thought he was an attacking midfielder instead of a striker. The team's player acquisition outside the obvious ones has been relatively poor. I mean the team has way too many strikers...we played a 4-2-3-1 yesterday with 3 strikers on the field. Gio
Posting Permissions
