That's not what happens in MLS. You either get inexperience or people who have had 1 decent season. (unless you get Arena).Originally Posted by sully
That's not what happens in MLS. You either get inexperience or people who have had 1 decent season. (unless you get Arena).
Just listening to Vanney you can tell he has a tactical mind. His only problem is inexperience. Someone like Bruce Arena has the ability to see this and understands that Vanney has a promising future.
Our only problem is the present. TFC has always been saddled with less experienced coaches (save for Preki). Fans feel like they can't wait another 2-3 years until Vanney turns into a solid coach. He has clearly improved from year 1, but that's not good enough for many on this board or on social media.
The key is can Vanney do enough now to keep his job, and eventually form this team into a legit challenger, or will the usual Toronto thing happen and we end up with yet another new untested coach, this time with less tactical potential?
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
Is anyone naive enough to think they'll get an honest opinion when someone publicly comments on the quality of someone else in the industry?
If Arena came out and said "this guy sucks!" That would be news. It would also be self defeating for everyone involved, since it would take the other guy down a peg and the person making a comment would be looked at awkwardly by current / potential staffers.
Someone says "what do you think of this guy?" And for all but a few ego maniacs like mourinho and furgeson( who are more interested in head games than an honest opinion) you pretty much always get a powder puff response.
We have been through this song and dance on several occasions, and firing a coach at this point of the season has yet to yield the desired results. We have to let Vanney ride out the season for better or worse and re-evaluate in the off season.
I am totally onside with this but there is a ton riding on this season actually meeting some kind of success criteria.
In the past this has lead them down the panic move firing route, who knows for this year...
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There's usually more options or at least numbers of coaches looking to change clubs between seasons. It just makes more sense when we're still in it.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
Agreed. Unless the perfect candidate was out there (nobody I see fits that description currently) it's more disruptive than good.
Let him have the season and if we fix nothing, which I doubt we will, then there shouldn't be the same discourse that happened after the Nelsen firing. Everyone should be on the same page that Vanney isn't good enough. However, if this slide and whatever is going on behind the scenes continues, Vanney loses the dressing room, and we do our traditional stretch run flop then we may need a change.
Is playoffs enough for another season? I personally think it would be since it is a hurdle we have never overcome even tho 60% of teams make it and we are in the weaker conference. We have picked up points on the road when teams in the past never have. It's just that I was stunned last game that Vanney didn't adjust and when he did it was too late. In fact he set-up right into Red Bulls hands and they just played their game which we all knew was coming. I expected big changes at half or at least 55th min when it was clear the game plan was dead wrong. Vanney has promise but last game was hard to take for me.
Agree with the season and see where we stand.
Not that I disagree with what you're saying, but when everyone is on the same page I'll know that something disastrous has happened. Aliens, hive mind, something. It just has no precedent.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
His lack of adjustments shouldn't be surprising to anyone in fact it should be expected, since he has been failing to make adjustments at half time and with subs all season long. Read game threads from last month, the month before, there are plenty of comments about it.
I don't know what stops him from making the necessary adjustments at the appropriate times, but unless he can find the willingness to change his game plan spontaneously to react to the other team we will be screwed with him at the helm.
"Everybody being on the same page" is the very definition of groupthink.Not that I disagree with what you're saying, but when everyone is on the same page I'll know that something disastrous has happened. Aliens, hive mind, something. It just has no precedent.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
Agreed. Rarely makes them before 75 min. He loves cameo appearances. Last game tho it should have been evident to everyone he was just sticking to his guns. If Bradley is playing like shit, take him off. I guess I shouldn't have expected different last game but man, tough to watch.
I specifically remember adjustments made in Vancouver at half time.
I also remember adjustments in Chicago and RSL.
Last Saturday was the first time when I saw adjustments too late.
Oh and Bradley doesn't leave any game, be it TFC or USMNT.
Nobody is bigger than the club.
Bradley should be benched for that performance, its a problem when a player plays that bad and isnt going to be sat down.
I would gain a lot of respect for Vanney if did that, Bradleys passing was a major issue.
If rumors of Bradley's influence are true, then Vanney is in a tough spot. His hands are tied there.
The coaches power should be absolute. As soon as it's not, he is screwed.
He may have made those adjustments (can only remember Vancouver honestly but idk) but Vanney completely shat the bed last game.
And disagree, if Bradley is under performing in a particular game he shouldn't be exempt from being subbed out. I think the overall problem lies in team set-up and finding the balance which is on Vanney but Bradley needs to be better and be the leader we need. He hasn't been that since returning. If it is 70th min and Bradley has done shit all don't really see the benefit to keeping him in a game only based on merit. The "he can't leave any game" is way to strict for me. Should depend on the flow of the game and current form. I know what you are getting at (Captain and USMNT captain) but I have never liked that type of finality. He needs to be better, maybe a sub out will help him and maybe help us.
Regarding Bradley, this season is reminiscent of last season. He was fantastic prior to the World Cup, the team lost it's rhythm in his absence, and then he had trouble regaining his form when he came back.
A very frustrating pattern to observe as a supporter.
Agreed. Despite how we like to say Bradley controls the team, Vanney is in the hot seat and the final decisions lay with him. Vanney only needs to win, not appease players on the team. If he can take council from key players and utilize that in his strategy then great. But Bradley should not be above the manager. If he is then Vanney has already lost the plot and so has this organization.
unless they go on a streak and maybe win a playoff game,i think bez and vanney are done.i think bob bradley is the next coach.TL has his finger on the trigger and if they lose bad this weekend you never know?maybe DD or the new head of academy for the rest of the season.i hope not.
If this version of the TFC management team really is better than past regimes, they will do what no other TFC front office has ever done in the 8+ losing seasons:
Stay the course with the coach they have.
If they do change managers now - they are no better than past regimes.
No better than MoJo years, no better than the Anselmi after Mojo years - doesn't matter what coach they bring in because they would be losers just like those other guys.
Losers who don't know what the fuck they are doing. Doesn't matter if they bring in Jose Mourinho - they will fuck it up because that is the trend they would be following.
If 8+ years of no playoffs has taught this club anything - it should be not to fire/push out the manager to try and get into the playoffs.
^ I keep coming back to this. It really is the road untraveled.
Playoffs for me aren't enough in themselves. Not making them though would be a disaster, biggest ever probably, for this club. Now that's saying something. Making them however shouldn't be the deciding factor on anything. Judge the pros and judge the flaws. Take into account the tactics, the subs, the ability to adapt. Add it all up and objectively decide if Vanney is the guy to take the team to the next level.
Honestly making the playoffs is an easy goal for anyone but us. With this team it would almost be harder not to make it than make it. I hope Bez and T.L look beyond that simple (for some) achievement.
As much there is blame on Vanney for his tactics and subs, but let's not forget he can only use what is given to him. We have a shit backline... It has been like for 8 bloody years. Bez has to take some if not all of the blame for constructing the roster. He picked Findlay and his ridiculous salary. We need defenders he goes and get Herc???
I'm not sure how Vanney is responsible for the middle being pedestrian, terrible defensively and has no speed. Delgado should not be starting at this point he gets pushed off the ball way to easy. Cheryou as an anchor is not good when teams press. Bradley for all the running he does needs to understand that he needs to let everyone do their job and worry about his own responsibilities. Osorio needs to be more consistent (which up until a couple of games ago was rounding into form) and he needs to push forward with the ball not always looking to move it sideways or backwards. Warner is what he is, useful but not a difference maker. Also, especially when teams press the midfield does not provide options, I learned at an early age to provide an outlet (the triangle) maybe the team needs a refresher on this, which come to think about it is quite sad that professional players can't or won't do the basics.
Again, partially Vanney's fault, but I think that the players should take a ton of the blame especially in the past 2 games.
Agreed. We need to stop talking about the playoffs. It's pretty meaningless in the expanded format. Making the playoffs this year will happen solely because they beat Philly and Orlando 5 times.
Right now they are something like 2-6-3 against the better teams in the league. That has to get better by season's end.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
Right now around the league (and within our own fan base to an extent) there is the `TFC are TFCìn and going to capitulate and not make the playoffs, typical TFC’
So yes, getting to the playoffs is absolutely massive. Getting that monkey off the clubs back is very important.
Now I’m by no means suggesting that scraping into the playoffs is a success but just from a stigma point of view, getting in will be beneficial for the club going forward.
Either Vanney gets in and gets to build off it or the new guy coming in doesn’t won’t have to deal with the usual BS if there is a summer slump next year (or the losing streak starting on the road again next year)
Disagree. It's meaningful, just not as meaningful as it was previously (although more meaningful than when 8/10 clubs made the playoffs in the early days of MLS). However, it shows that TFC is a mid-table team, not yet ready for the title.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
Making the playoffs is important in terms of fan satisfaction and maintaining relevancy. But it's the playoff run that really matters. If we finish 6th and crash out immediately it's a failure. If we finish 6th and it all comes together and we make the final, who cares that we qualified in the last spot?
On Vanney, I still think he could be the long term solution, simply because he's pretty much the only TFC coach that has ever made tactical adjustments throughout a season. Early in the year we played a high line and got burned for it; Vanney has fixed that. Bradley was playing in a deep-lying role and not getting into the game; Vanney moved him upfield and he's had a huge impact (his poor game last weekend notwithstanding). Nelsen, Mariner, Winter, etc... they just swapped players in and out, putting out the same game plan week after week. That being said, the defense has been a huge problem the last stretch of games and Vanney hasn't been able to figure it out. That's concerning. And I've questioned his in-game adjustments or decisions many times. The jury is still out on him for me. I'm hopeful if just for the fact that another coaching change I feel could do some real damage to the team.
We are a mid-table team, but the question is, should that be the case?
I think we are far better than that on paper. A combination of questionable tactical adaptation, sub par goalkeeping, and an inconsistent starting lineup has caused this club to underachieve.
I agree that making the playoffs in of itself is not much of an accomplishment with our roster.
Coming in 5th or 6th in the east will be worse than "mid table".
As someone above said, what will matter far more is what happens next.
Scraping in and getting blasted out of the first round (a la Montreal two years ago) is the same as missing the playoffs, in terms of meaning.
Scraping in and going on a tear, like RSL in 2009, that would move the needle.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
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