The Vanney Era Deathwatch Thread

[Fort York Redcoat]

Watch Serie A vs. other leagues and the focus on tactics is clear. Italians have been achieving more with less for decades. If we're looking for a coach that will bring structure to the team, the best option is Italian.

Thanks for the unbias opinion there, CALCIO.

The right answer is there is surely a fit that could come from Italy but the fact he's Italian would be just a part of it.

See our Womens Team last time around.

[OgtheDim]

Watch Serie A vs. other leagues and the focus on tactics is clear.

No, nobody in the Bundisliga does tactics. And Mourinho just throws the ball out there and says "You go boys." And Real, well Benentiz managed Liverpool so how can he know anything about tactics.

You are equating style with tactics.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I'm sure Calcio is unaware of how many times National generalizations have made their way onto the board. He's not wrong in stating that general type of play would be a benefit to our team. It just lacks some of the accompanying details that would have to change to make it work here. It's not impossible, just not simple either.

[jazzy]

The first difference you'll notice between Sarri and basically any coach in NA is the coaching of the back line. In Italy, just the back four alone is worthy of immense coaching and drilling. I love Sarri and think he's a great coach but there are quite a few guys like him in Italy. That just highlights the differences in the way the game is played and coached there vs. here.

If you take any good Italian coach and give them this roster, they will finish much higher. You don't need great players to hold a certain shape. You don't need great players to realize that the CBs can never, under any circumstance, be without cover. Once they are without cover they have to make tough decisions (and bad players can't make those tough decisions). You cover them up and you keep them in line. Once you let them maraud around the pitch, they start getting in between balls, they find themselves in wide areas. The whole team goes to shit.

Then once they're covered you can get into how connected they should be. When to step up. How far should they drop, etc. But you have to coach the shit out of that. I've never seen a TFC team come close to Italian level execution defensively.

It's not even close to "San Marino hold on for dear life to an 8-0 loss" level defensively. It's somehow worse. Defenders have to know how to play off each other just as much as attackers. And also, in all the time I've spent with youth soccer in Canada, I've never seen defending coached. And if it is, it's maybe 5% of the practice time in relation to other areas of the pitch.

But then you have to expand on that and include the midfielders and forwards in your defensive tactics. Sometimes I couldn't continue watching TFC games when I see the "two banks of four" spread 20 yards apart with opponents constantly finding space in between those banks. It's like the anti-thesis of tactically correct defending. It's everything NOT to do.

Everyone please read .....would have thought Nelson tried this ?

[jazzy]

We'd be Chicago.

And Montreal without Drogba? And Seattle without Martins and Dempsey? Its an arguement that means nothing cause the player exists.

My point is how do you evaluate a coach without that superstar ? He has to bring something to the table . I like MikeM's comments on better coaching the D . Obviously the man out the door immediately has yo be OUR D strategist . Regardless of our superstars it's all about our crap D. Btw you can't use the two man argument as above for Seattle . I mean that is the point we have never found our second man to fit with Gio . EG Columbus Findley to Kamara and I didn't even include Higuan . Again we're stuck with Altidore and Bradley who do not work well with Gio . Back to same problem .

[Fort York Redcoat]

I don't think you mean to keep quoting me, jazzy. I'm still reading it though, I promise.

[Areathrasher]

its the offseason, must be time for the euro coach debate again

[jazzy]

Thanks for the unbias opinion there, CALCIO.

The right answer is there is surely a fit that could come from Italy but the fact he's Italian would be just a part of it.

See our Womens Team last time around.

I don't think you mean to keep quoting me, jazzy. I'm still reading it though, I promise.

yup old man on computer

[Calcio]

No, nobody in the Bundisliga does tactics. And Mourinho just throws the ball out there and says "You go boys." And Real, well Benentiz managed Liverpool so how can he know anything about tactics.

You are equating style with tactics.

Don't think I said that no other league used tactics, I just said in Serie A tactics are a hyperfocus. It isn't opinion that Serie A is more tactical than other leagues, it is fact. There are dozens and dozens of quotes from players when asked what the difference in Serie A vs. other leagues are. The answer is ALWAYS, it is more tactical. In Serie A, the focus is on play without the ball. In other leagues, there isn't this sort of focus. Once again, not opinion, it is fact. That being said, you bring up Mourinho, he is IMO, the manager in the EPL most focused on tactics.

Here is support for the focus on tactics, there is plenty. Not all the articles are positive, some say Italian football should change because it is slower and too tactical. Point is all of these articles point to the same thing, and have quotes from several players highlighting that Serie A is a much more tactically focused game.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/...-league-napoli
http://www.football-italia.net/43322...-extraordinary
http://www.goal.com/en/news/10/itali...fficult-league
http://www.maltasport.com/modules/in...p?itemid=30210
http://www.football-italia.net/60951...ampions-league
http://www.football-italia.net/61477...tical%E2%80%99
http://forzaitalianfootball.com/2015...than-prva-hnl/
http://www.thenational.ae/sport/seri...ianluca-vialli
http://www.football-italia.net/55865...le-serie-debut
http://www.goal.com/en/news/15/germa...mund-treatment
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/...o/2057058.html
http://www.goal.com/en/news/10/itali...says-kondogbia
http://www.football-italia.net/72862...n-city-failure
http://www.goal.com/en-india/news/70...ia-because-he-
http://www.goal.com/en/news/10/itali...-unique-talent
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/foo...ge-debut-means
http://www.sport-english.com/en/news...ontext-4241282
http://www.football-italia.net/60167...tical%E2%80%99

[Calcio]

Thanks for the unbias opinion there, CALCIO.

The right answer is there is surely a fit that could come from Italy but the fact he's Italian would be just a part of it.

See our Womens Team last time around.

He doesn't have to be Italian in terms of nationality - but coaching for a long time in the Italian league would be a huge help. As MikeM said before, there is a certain way of coaching in Italy when it comes to defending that would help TFC perform.

That being said, it isn't blindly picking an Italian-league coach. Picking Zdenek Zeman for the team would make no sense.

[Leedsoronto]

Have we tried a Japanese coach yet?

[starter]

He doesn't have to be Italian in terms of nationality - but coaching for a long time in the Italian league would be a huge help. As MikeM said before, there is a certain way of coaching in Italy when it comes to defending that would help TFC perform.

This would be a good move, for a change.
Not that impossible, if management wants to attract fans and keep SG happy.
Hey, a better coach might even have balls to point a thing or two to our Captain?

[Ultra & Proud]

I still wouldn't want an international manager but I was thinking that some specialists/consultants perhaps from overseas to come in solely to work on off the ball movement and set piece defending wouldn't be a bad thing.

[Canary10]

MLS isn't a tactical league. I'd way rather a coach who can motivate than one who's tactical. Coaches who get the players working hard and on the same page are the most successful in MLS.

[Canary10]

Interesting article by Neil Davidson. I think dumping Caldwell was a huge mistake (unless he really was that injured). Lost the inspirational leader of the team. And his view of Bez and Vanney is bang on imo.

http://www.timescolonist.com/analysi...tity-1.2100045

[ensco]

Don't care about the manager nearly as much as I care about the GM

[ronzilla]

You can't deny that some of the best tactical coaches have come from Italy. I'm not buying into this theory that a foreign coach would struggle to adapt here, simply because, at the end of the day, it's the same sport being played with the only difference being that MLS is a lower league in terms of quality and style of play. The past foreign coaches that came here and failed was many years ago and its irrelevant to this argument. None have been a big name coach.

I would have no doubt that if TFC signed a Serie A coach, or any European coach for that matter, this team would easily fiinsh at the top.


Roberto Mancini led Manchester City to the Premier League title for the first time in 44 years.

Roberto Di Matteo- almost effortlessly imposed a new tactical approach, won over the senior players and dressing room and led the side to FA Cup and UEFA Champions League glory.

Marcello Lippi - the 64-year-old started afresh in PR China by taking charge of Guangzhou Evergrande and lifted the team to the top
of the table and also won the World Cup in 2006.

Trapattoni - took over as head coach of the Republic of Ireland and subsequently guided them to UEFA EURO 2012 – their first European finals in 24 years.

Capello - Went to coach the England national team and gave the country the highest winning percentage that the national team has ever seen.

and many more.

This list is just some examples of Italian coaches that took on new challenges. I'm not saying they would be the perfect fit, although if TFC want to sign a new coach, they should be searching in Italy.

[trane]

MLS isn't a tactical league. I'd way rather a coach who can motivate than one who's tactical. Coaches who get the players working hard and on the same page are the most successful in MLS.

Well it is about time that the MLS move on up and become a tactical league.

[jazzy]

As much as I agree with many here , maybe ? , the best move is a more player involved GM being the answer , along with keeping Vanney . ( 1 more year ONLY) , But isn't he Bez's man? ....Whoever chose The red bulls defensive specialist though ...hoy vay ??.....

[jazzy]

Interesting article by Neil Davidson. I think dumping Caldwell was a huge mistake (unless he really was that injured). Lost the inspirational leader of the team. And his view of Bez and Vanney is bang on imo.

http://www.timescolonist.com/analysi...tity-1.2100045

thats a great succinct article !

[trane]

You can't deny that some of the best tactical coaches have come from Italy. I'm not buying into this theory that a foreign coach would struggle to adapt here, simply because, at the end of the day, it's the same sport being played with the only difference being that MLS is a lower league in terms of quality and style of play. The past foreign coaches that came here and failed was many years ago and its irrelevant to this argument. None have been a big name coach.

I would have no doubt that if TFC signed a Serie A coach, or any European coach for that matter, this team would easily fiinsh at the top.


Roberto Mancini led Manchester City to the Premier League title for the first time in 44 years.

Roberto Di Matteo- almost effortlessly imposed a new tactical approach, won over the senior players and dressing room and led the side to FA Cup and UEFA Champions League glory.

Marcello Lippi - the 64-year-old started afresh in PR China by taking charge of Guangzhou Evergrande and lifted the team to the top
of the table and also won the World Cup in 2006.

Trapattoni - took over as head coach of the Republic of Ireland and subsequently guided them to UEFA EURO 2012 – their first European finals in 24 years.

Capello - Went to coach the England national team and gave the country the highest winning percentage that the national team has ever seen.

and many more.

This list is just some examples of Italian coaches that took on new challenges. I'm not saying they would be the perfect fit, although if TFC want to sign a new coach, they should be searching in Italy.

That dude that finally won Real Madrid the 10th cl title after years of cl underachievement.

Mou is very "Italian" in his concept, but there are many European coaches, like Roma's present coach, who take a very tactical approach to the game, and many who now how to make more out of less.

The mls in UN-watchable at times, because its lack of tactical cohesion, and I have heard this from people who grew up with all kinds of football, from Germany, Italy and Enland, too Ghana and Columbia. We complain about a lack of footy IQ. Well footy iq starts with tactical understanding which MLS players do not have as a group.

[shwade]

Interesting article by Neil Davidson. I think dumping Caldwell was a huge mistake (unless he really was that injured). Lost the inspirational leader of the team. And his view of Bez and Vanney is bang on imo.

http://www.timescolonist.com/analysi...tity-1.2100045

Bradley is cold and aloof - he can't motivate and round up the troops...nor can Vanney and this was clearly a problem for this team. Look at Drogba's celebration video on instagram - I can't see our guys being that close.

[Canary10]

That dude that finally won Real Madrid the 10th cl title after years of cl underachievement.

Mou is very "Italian" in his concept, but there are many European coaches, like Roma's present coach, who take a very tactical approach to the game, and many who now how to make more out of less.

The mls in UN-watchable at times, because its lack of tactical cohesion, and I have heard this from people who grew up with all kinds of football, from Germany, Italy and Enland, too Ghana and Columbia. We complain about a lack of footy IQ. Well footy iq starts with tactical understanding which MLS players do not have as a group.

Need to instill that much earlier. These guys graduate at 22-23 and go to MLS without the understanding of the game.

Personally I find MLS borderline unwatchable because of its slowness.

[ensco]

Bradley is cold and aloof - he can't motivate and round up the troops...nor can Vanney and this was clearly a problem for this team. Look at Drogba's celebration video on instagram - I can't see our guys being that close.

Davidson is wrong. This is suddenly becoming a "thing". I don't see this or accept this. Bradley is intense, but aloof? No way.

The fact that Bradley almost entirely operates behind closed doors, and is measured and respectful in public, is being misconstrued.

Bradley hasn't been worth what he has been paid, but that is a different issue. He remains a good use of a DP slot.

[Canary10]

Davidson is wrong. This is suddenly becoming a "thing". I don't see this or accept this. Bradley is intense, but aloof? No way.

The fact that Bradley almost entirely operates behind closed doors, and is measured and respectful in public, is being misconstrued.

Bradley hasn't been worth what he has been paid, but that is a different issue. He remains a good use of a DP slot.

This is a guy who is around the team more than almost anyone else...

He's also not saying he's not a good use of a DP. Only that he doesn't have an emotional style of leadership. That assessment doesn't surprise me at all.

[ensco]

This is a guy who is around the team more than almost anyone else...

He's also not saying he's not a good use of a DP. Only that he doesn't have an emotional style if leadership. That assessment doesn't surprise me at all.

That is a fair point, and Davidson has an excellent body of work.

I just think people (fans, reporters, everyone really) have weird unconscious biases about where "motivation" comes from and fits into team performance. The results totally inform their conclusions, not the other way around. Bradley's style is one you see a lot, but because we lost, it's a problem.

People go on about the leadership style of Jonathan Toews (and Steve Yzerman before him) - who "lead by example" but never showing emotion or saying anything that isn't banal. But of course it's great with those guys, because they won.

[shwade]

Davidson is wrong. This is suddenly becoming a "thing". I don't see this or accept this. Bradley is intense, but aloof? No way.

The fact that Bradley almost entirely operates behind closed doors, and is measured and respectful in public, is being misconstrued.

Bradley hasn't been worth what he has been paid, but that is a different issue. He remains a good use of a DP slot.

Maybe aloof isn't exactly the right word but you can see it on the field with his teammates...there's a certain lack of warmth or commraderie between the captain and the rest of the guys. You need to be emotional to light a fire under your team.

Yzerman, Toews, Kobe - they could affect the outcome of the game just by themselves. Bradley can't do that so he should be able to at least motivate which he clearly can't judging by how often we come out flat.

[Canary10]

That is a fair point, and Davidson has an excellent body of work.

I just think people (fans, reporters, everyone really) have weird unconscious biases about where "motivation" comes from and fits into team performance. The results totally inform their conclusions, not the other way around. Bradley's style is one you see a lot, but because we lost, it's a problem.

People go on about the leadership style of Jonathan Toews (and Steve Yzerman before him) - who "lead by example" but never showing emotion or saying anything that isn't banal. But of course it's great with those guys, because they won.

Yeah I agree with that. I appreciate his style personally. You need a combination of people who lead with effort and example and those that can rile people up.

[MightyDM]

Davidson is wrong. This is suddenly becoming a "thing". I don't see this or accept this. Bradley is intense, but aloof? No way.

The fact that Bradley almost entirely operates behind closed doors, and is measured and respectful in public, is being misconstrued.

Bradley hasn't been worth what he has been paid, but that is a different issue. He remains a good use of a DP slot.

i completely agree about Bradley's persona with the press being measured and respectful, and that shouldn't be misconstrued. He is a tough and effective player, I loved the staples in his head. I will always cheer for him here. But yet there is a nagging feeling - two managers, one right out of the Premier League, have not been able to get the best out of the team with him in it. Maybe he isn't a fit for us. And maybe we could do really well in a trade or sale to a US media centre. To LA for Gerrard and Dan Gargantuan....

(obviously not the trade but we could get a winger with pace and a RB, or a RB and a CB or a DM like Dax or or or.)

[ensco]

I loved the staples in his head. I will always cheer for him here. But yet there is a nagging feeling - two managers, one right out of the Premier League, have not been able to get the best out of the team with him in it. Maybe he isn't a fit for us.

Well put.

I don't think there is a "trade" out there, given that contract.

The team that needs Michael Bradley more than any other in MLS is Chicago.