The Vanney Era Deathwatch Thread

[molenshtain]

If you are going to be that precise, the question is, how many coaches took over a team in a plyoff position, guided it out of the playoffs, and in the next year made the playoffs? That's more accurate and more fair to Vanney.

I liked last year's team and agreed with the counter attacking style, it works in MLS. This year, giovinco is likely to be the best player we will see in a Reds uniform. He is a delight to watch and he bradley jozy (on a good day) osorio and delgado combine brilliantly. But there is often something off in the balance of selections or the formation. Th fact that we rarely draw is telling. And I think that's where we see Vanneys weakness. There also seems something off in the teams passion - go look at the clip of the team celebrating gilbertos goal in the clip Ensco posted in the Chicago game thread and they all look full of joy. I found it strikingly different from this year. That may or may not have something to do with Vanney and his personality/ motivation.

I don't know how many times I have to say this: Nelsen's team had won 3 of their last 13 games. Vanney would have had to have performed a miracle to take that team, a team so worn down and demotivated and lacking of tactical thinking due to Nelsen's tenure, to the playoffs. We didn't really play counterattacking football last year, we just sent out a 4-4-2 every game and had dudes run hard. We were bleeding goals by the end due to our lack of tactics.

Your last point is 100% conjecture and therefore impossible to argue. whatever.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Nelsen's team had won 3 of their last 13 games. .

This is something a lot of people seem to forget on a regular basis

[molenshtain]

This is something a lot of people seem to forget on a regular basis

Trust me, I know.

[ManUtd4ever]

This team was underachieving under Nelsen and heading on the wrong trajectory without question. That's not to say that the same pattern isn't developing under Vanney, albeit under a different guise.

Hopefully, the remaining games will tell a different story.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I don't know how many times I have to say this: Nelsen's team had won 3 of their last 13 games.

Yes but can you guarantee Nelsens team wouldn't have won every game after his dismissal?

It's not your fault. Some peeps gotta

[Oldtimer]

This is what I think. He plays an attacking style with too little effort given to being certain about defence, with the result that we are easy to score on. And we beat teams who are also easy to score on because of the coaching and the talent.

... and you base that on what? The fact that we have poor defense? You don't know, maybe 3-1/2 hours out of every 4 hour practice is spent on defense and it's just that we have lousy defenders who pass the ball in front of their own net with the other teams strikers in the vincinity. You can't coach out stupidity and panic when it's something that should have been learned in rep league.

[PopePouri]

If you are going to be that precise, the question is, how many coaches took over a team in a plyoff position, guided it out of the playoffs, and in the next year made the playoffs? That's more accurate and more fair to Vanney.

No it's not.



Here's the PPG for the last couple of games of the season. Due to the incredible form of NY, NE and Columbus, the only team we could have caught was Sporting. DC was out of sight. The required PPG to reach 50 points, because Sporting's goal difference was much better, was 1.7. Nelsen's last 10 games yielded a PPG of 1.2 (that's with 3 wins) and if you extend it to 13 games, it's 1.08. Couple that with an injury riddled squad that included Defoe, it's highly unlikely that Nelsen would have turned it around.

[C.Ronaldo]

... and you base that on what? The fact that we have poor defense? You don't know, maybe 3-1/2 hours out of every 4 hour practice is spent on defense and it's just that we have lousy defenders who pass the ball in front of their own net with the other teams strikers in the vincinity. You can't coach out stupidity and panic when it's something that should have been learned in rep league.

hey watch it, i only played house league and know not to do that

[MightyDM]

... and you base that on what? The fact that we have poor defense? You don't know, maybe 3-1/2 hours out of every 4 hour practice is spent on defense and it's just that we have lousy defenders who pass the ball in front of their own net with the other teams strikers in the vincinity. You can't coach out stupidity and panic when it's something that should have been learned in rep league.

I find it interesting that on this thread our coaches are either disasters or heroes. No nuance. If I ever say anything about Nelsen that is remotely positive, people go crazy and say things like " beating a dead horse". If I say things about Vanney that include his record for last year, they go all "he's better than Nelsen" on me. FWIW, my view is that Nelsens counter attacking defence first 4-4-2 was a valid option in this league where there are huge differences In talent on the same team. He had us in a playoff position, but was too reliant on Defoe and when Defoe got hurt couldn't find another solution.

Vanney, on the other hand, seems to produce very exciting offensive soccer with a giant gaping hole for defence. This is on him tactically ( and earlier this year from a selections perspective) . In thirty games, including last year, his team has given up the first goal in the first half. In nine we have scored first. It is mind boggling how often this happens. And I blame the tactics and possibly the motivation. Look at Gilberto's first goal. Altidore dawdles on the ball (Jozy, what on earth were you thinking), Konopka should have saved it, but the real culprit was Delgado who was in a position that was far too attacking and could not recover to prevent Gilberto's run. If he had been in a more defensive position, the shot would not have happened because Williams and Perquis were in position - Gilberto's run was wide of Williams into the space left by Delgado. It is clear that Vanney is instructing his fullbacks to play a high line - they are always stationed there - so this is on him and his tactics.

I also wonder about his motivational ability. He is so analytical and always says things like " we talked about it". That is NOT how you coach. You do it! Endlessly. Mind numbingly, until it is habit. In this regard he reminds me of Winter. Plus it's our best players who are making the worst mistakes. Where is the coaching there?

I hope he learns and grows and is our version of Alex Ferguson at Aberdeen. I really hope so. His selections have shown growth. But conceding a goal to our former DP striker in the first minute of a critical game against a truly weak team doesn't give confidence in his ability to analyze problems, find solutions to them, and motivate the team to implement the solutions.

[Oldtimer]

So I take it you believe it's on the coach, and poor defenders had nothing to do with Gilberto's goal. Well... whatever.

[MightyDM]

So I take it you believe it's on the coach, and poor defenders had nothing to do with Gilberto's goal. Well... whatever.

What are you saying? Perquis caused the first goal? Morrow? Williams? If you are saying that, you are beating the dead horse that our poor centre backs cause all our goals.

Watch the replay. Altidore loses the ball poorly. That's on him, mostly, although it's on the coach to figure out hoe to motivate him. Konopka screws up. That's totally on him. But Delgado being in an attacking position instead of a defensive one - that's on Vanney because it's clearly what he is telling them. You know that Oldtimer because you have commented on the high position our fullbacks are in. Delgado did as instructed, and despite Altidore and Konopka, if he had been two steps more defensive, no goal.

Over to you, dude.

[Yohan]

What are you saying? Perquis caused the first goal? Morrow? Williams? If you are saying that, you are beating the dead horse that our poor centre backs cause all our goals.

Watch the replay. Altidore loses the ball poorly. That's on him, mostly, although it's on the coach to figure out hoe to motivate him. Konopka screws up. That's totally on him. But Delgado being in an attacking position instead of a defensive one - that's on Vanney because it's clearly what he is telling them. You know that Oldtimer because you have commented on the high position our fullbacks are in. Delgado did as instructed, and despite Altidore and Konopka, if he had been two steps more defensive, no goal.

Over to you, dude.

You are correct that Vanney has the RB pushing up aggressive on offence. It is a tactical decision.

Here's the reasoning why.
Giovinco is the primary concern for opposition on defence. Usually, they will either try to contain him, or double team him. With Giovinco's tendency to drift to the left, even if Giovinco doesn't have the ball, the opposition will slide more to TFC left, leaving right side available to be exploited. Combined with TFC wide midfielders to drift inside and pulling the opposition FB with him, that leaves a lot of room for RB to exploit.

If I was Vanney, and I see opposition pretty much allow my RB to exploit the space unmarked, I'll tell my RB to push up too. You'll notice that Morrow at LB is more conservative pushing up, because well, Morrow is a defensive FB first, plus he'll be occupying a lot of same space Giovinco does, therefore not as effective.
RB pushing up high also creates an overload on opposition left side, and as the ball played to TFC right and opposition has to shift to compensate, opposition is now in transition and aren't keeping their shape as well, leaving potential for TFC offence to try to find gaps in defence. And more importantly, Giovinco might be able to lose his marker and find space as TFC offence tries to find him with a pass again.

You take a risk when you push up your FB high. But I think it's worth the risk.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I find it interesting that on this thread our coaches are either disasters or heroes. No nuance. If I ever say anything about Nelsen that is remotely positive, people go crazy and say things like " beating a dead horse". If I say things about Vanney that include his record for last year, they go all "he's better than Nelsen" on me. FWIW, my view is that Nelsens counter attacking defence first 4-4-2 was a valid option in this league where there are huge differences In talent on the same team. He had us in a p****** position, but was too reliant on Defoe and when Defoe got hurt couldn't find another solution.

Vanney, on the other hand, seems to produce very exciting offensive soccer with a giant gaping hole for defence. This is on him tactically ( and earlier this year from a selections perspective) . In thirty games, including last year, his team has given up the first goal in the first half. In nine we have scored first. It is mind boggling how often this happens. And I blame the tactics and possibly the motivation. Look at Gilberto's first goal. Altidore dawdles on the ball (Jozy, what on earth were you thinking), Konopka should have saved it, but the real culprit was Delgado who was in a position that was far too attacking and could not recover to prevent Gilberto's run. If he had been in a more defensive position, the shot would not have happened because Williams and Perquis were in position - Gilberto's run was wide of Williams into the space left by Delgado. It is clear that Vanney is instructing his fullbacks to play a high line - they are always stationed there - so this is on him and his tactics.

I also wonder about his motivational ability. He is so analytical and always says things like " we talked about it". That is NOT how you coach. You do it! Endlessly. Mind numbingly, until it is habit. In this regard he reminds me of Winter. Plus it's our best players who are making the worst mistakes. Where is the coaching there?

I hope he learns and grows and is our version of Alex Ferguson at Aberdeen. I really hope so. His selections have shown growth. But conceding a goal to our former DP striker in the first minute of a critical game against a truly weak team doesn't give confidence in his ability to analyze problems, find solutions to them, and motivate the team to implement the solutions.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nuance

Here's the thing:

You talking about Nelsen in the present tense - beating a dead horse (He's gone[dead in this sense] and not relevant to what our new coach is doing)

Someone repeating a failing in a player that repeated said failure - relevant (not fun, mind you, but relevant)

[trane]

You are correct that Vanney has the RB pushing up aggressive on offence. It is a tactical decision.

Here's the reasoning why.
Giovinco is the primary concern for opposition on defence. Usually, they will either try to contain him, or double team him. With Giovinco's tendency to drift to the left, even if Giovinco doesn't have the ball, the opposition will slide more to TFC left, leaving right side available to be exploited. Combined with TFC wide midfielders to drift inside and pulling the opposition FB with him, that leaves a lot of room for RB to exploit.

If I was Vanney, and I see opposition pretty much allow my RB to exploit the space unmarked, I'll tell my RB to push up too. You'll notice that Morrow at LB is more conservative pushing up, because well, Morrow is a defensive FB first, plus he'll be occupying a lot of same space Giovinco does, therefore not as effective.
RB pushing up high also creates an overload on opposition left side, and as the ball played to TFC right and opposition has to shift to compensate, opposition is now in transition and aren't keeping their shape as well, leaving potential for TFC offence to try to find gaps in defence. And more importantly, Giovinco might be able to lose his marker and find space as TFC offence tries to find him with a pass again.

You take a risk when you push up your FB high. But I think it's worth the risk.

Vanney thinks it is worth the risk too, but is it? In light of our defensive issues? If we think that we can use it to outscore the opponents in most games that is ok, and too some degree we have been doing it in just enough games, but for my taste we are not potent enough, few teams are, to just count on outscoring the opposition.

Hence maybe you consider pulling the full back back.

[Yohan]

Vanney thinks it is worth the risk too, but is it? In light of our defensive issues? If we think that we can use it to outscore the opponents in most games that is ok, and too some degree we have been doing it in just enough games, but for my taste we are not potent enough, few teams are, to just count on outscoring the opposition.

Hence maybe you consider pulling the full back back.

You play more defensively without FB pushing up, and Giovinco becomes easier to mark out of the game as opposition has one less guy to keep track of in defence.

TBH a lot of TFC defending issues would be solved by a more mobile destroyer DM that can clean up in front of the CBs.

[ronzilla]

You play more defensively without FB pushing up, and Giovinco becomes easier to mark out of the game as opposition has one less guy to keep track of in defence.

TBH a lot of TFC defending issues would be solved by a more mobile destroyer DM that can clean up in front of the CBs.

What do you think of playing Bradley as DM against tougher opponents ? I know the team would lose the edge on attack but I think shoring up the back will push the team deeper in the P Offs.

[Yohan]

What do you think of playing Bradley as DM against tougher opponents ? I know the team would lose the edge on attack but I think shoring up the back will push the team deeper in the P Offs.

he's not disciplined enough as DM. Bradley is best as box to box guy.

[Ultra & Proud]

You are correct that Vanney has the RB pushing up aggressive on offence. It is a tactical decision.

Here's the reasoning why.
Giovinco is the primary concern for opposition on defence. Usually, they will either try to contain him, or double team him. With Giovinco's tendency to drift to the left, even if Giovinco doesn't have the ball, the opposition will slide more to TFC left, leaving right side available to be exploited. Combined with TFC wide midfielders to drift inside and pulling the opposition FB with him, that leaves a lot of room for RB to exploit.

If I was Vanney, and I see opposition pretty much allow my RB to exploit the space unmarked, I'll tell my RB to push up too. You'll notice that Morrow at LB is more conservative pushing up, because well, Morrow is a defensive FB first, plus he'll be occupying a lot of same space Giovinco does, therefore not as effective.
RB pushing up high also creates an overload on opposition left side, and as the ball played to TFC right and opposition has to shift to compensate, opposition is now in transition and aren't keeping their shape as well, leaving potential for TFC offence to try to find gaps in defence. And more importantly, Giovinco might be able to lose his marker and find space as TFC offence tries to find him with a pass again.

You take a risk when you push up your FB high. But I think it's worth the risk.

I tend to agree but it should be based on opponent and none of this 'we are playing our game' thing. I saw that first goal coming as we are playing a fast, counter attacking team that has two forwards who like to stand on the defenders shoulders. I knew that we'd get burned unless we kept a solid line and sat back defensively until the game settled. This is a mistake that's repeated often and why we trail so often in matches and rarely win them. I'm not saying dump this tactic but to mix it up a bit from opponent to opponent or during the match on the fly would be a hell of a lot smarter. I know some folks love Vanney to death but objectively, he's as ham fisted as Nelsen was in his tactics but his are more geared to offense than Nelsen's were. Problem is that both are easy to figure out and when they do get figured out, we lose.

[trane]

You play more defensively without FB pushing up, and Giovinco becomes easier to mark out of the game as opposition has one less guy to keep track of in defence.

TBH a lot of TFC defending issues would be solved by a more mobile destroyer DM that can clean up in front of the CBs.

Off course, but my point is that these are coaching decisions, which impact each and every game, they have impacted our offensive out put which for TFC has been very impressive, and for our defensive problems which have been well more of the same old same old for the most part, It would be nice to find a balance.

A good DM, or TWO could render the entire middle of the defense more solid.

[Ultra & Proud]

A good DM, or TWO could render the entire middle of the defense more solid.

But in the absence of that, I think by now we could have adapted the tactics to at least cover the back line at critical moments (start of match, after restart, after goal). It's been a year now and it's the same problems, with different personnel, and it's no better now than then. Blaming it on anything other than bad coaching is a cop out and an excuse.

[OgtheDim]

Cheyrou is covering the back 4. That he has visibly slowed this season leads me to believe he's not coming back.

[shwade]

Man, Cheyrou was a stud the first half of the season. Then he got injured and his age has started to show.

[ag futbol]

Cheyrou is covering the back 4. That he has visibly slowed this season leads me to believe he's not coming back.

I agree. Wizardry on the ball notwithstanding,when the other teams are attacking the space in front of the back line it has been a struggle for him to close that space.

[trane]

But in the absence of that, I think by now we could have adapted the tactics to at least cover the back line at critical moments (start of match, after restart, after goal). It's been a year now and it's the same problems, with different personnel, and it's no better now than then. Blaming it on anything other than bad coaching is a cop out and an excuse.

Well you know that as much as I give credit to Vanney for our offense, I am with you as far as were the responsibility for our defensive performance is.

[MightyDM]

You are correct that Vanney has the RB pushing up aggressive on offence. It is a tactical decision.

Here's the reasoning why.
Giovinco is the primary concern for opposition on defence. Usually, they will either try to contain him, or double team him. With Giovinco's tendency to drift to the left, even if Giovinco doesn't have the ball, the opposition will slide more to TFC left, leaving right side available to be exploited. Combined with TFC wide midfielders to drift inside and pulling the opposition FB with him, that leaves a lot of room for RB to exploit.

If I was Vanney, and I see opposition pretty much allow my RB to exploit the space unmarked, I'll tell my RB to push up too. You'll notice that Morrow at LB is more conservative pushing up, because well, Morrow is a defensive FB first, plus he'll be occupying a lot of same space Giovinco does, therefore not as effective.
RB pushing up high also creates an overload on opposition left side, and as the ball played to TFC right and opposition has to shift to compensate, opposition is now in transition and aren't keeping their shape as well, leaving potential for TFC offence to try to find gaps in defence. And more importantly, Giovinco might be able to lose his marker and find space as TFC offence tries to find him with a pass again.

You take a risk when you push up your FB high. But I think it's worth the risk.

fair enough. but as others have said, time that. wait for the opportunities. and not in the first minute!!!!

[Huyton]

Brendan Rodgers, formerly of Swansea and Liverpool is now available if TFC decide to get rid of Vanney.

[Oldtimer]

Apparently Vanney can coach, at least Osorio thinks so.

[brad]

Brendan Rodgers, formerly of Swansea and Liverpool is now available if TFC decide to get rid of Vanney.

Mourinho should be on the market as well after another game or two

[Bobo]

Cesare Prandelli has just announced he is ready to move abroad for his next gig, with China his most likely destination at the moment. Surely Seba and TFC could lure him here instead. I've always been a huge fan of Prandelli and I'd imagine his name is at least thrown around the board room. He learned English a couple of years ago.

[GonfiaLaRete]

If we win the league I don't think Vanney is going anywhere