This was the smart part. Because he is saying this call is not just about Vanney, it's about Bez too. He'll do more than just fire Vanney, if that's where this goes.Originally Posted by trane
His timeline is driven by the summer window, because that is realistically when he will move the expensive guys, if he goes to a new plan.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
That would be smart, if Bez/Vanney were capable of competing in this league.
This past season does not suggest they are catching up, while we should expect other teams to improve. Where will the edge come from?
It would be difficult to get people excited about the team in the off-season as well.
Last edited by starter; 11-04-2015 at 09:33 AM.
To me this is the stupid part. He is setting it up to destroy it. You dump Vanney and replace him with Kreis and he tweaks things and at worst, we're similar until some roster moves go down. Then we could build from there. It would be better for the term that we have players like Seba and would give us a chance to maybe win something.
The way he laid it out is like taking a kid who can't swim out in a boat and tossing him in the lake. If he swims to shore then he lives then we go from there, if not then we have a new baby and start over. That's what I read between the lines. He wants to blow it all up but doesn't want backlash so he says the right things (yeeehaw stability!) and gives an obvious failure the opportunity to give him an excuse to start over.
I expect 2016 & 2017 to be write offs unless somehow Vanney becomes a football manager but I fear he will meat for social Darwinist beast.
If Kreis expressed an interest in joining the organization and Manning still opted for the status quo, then it would warrant criticism. We'll never know the truth, but I suspect Kreis said thanks but no thanks.
http://www.hudsonriverblue.com/2015/...reis-was-fired
Good article on why Kreis got fired.
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
I wonder if Vanney has the balls to bench Bradley if he doesn't do what Vanney wants him to do.
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
I say no. Vanney would get benched first.
I'm wondering if its ironic that those saying that Vanney shouldn't get another season and that Kreis should replace him realise that Kreis' first full season in charge of RSL they were bottom of the west (and only 2 points more than TFC in their woeful first season)?
I'm assuming that there were probably many RSL fans at the end of that first season saying "fire this guy"! Vanney has done a lot better than Kreis in his first full season.
He had a lot more to work with. RSL was and is cheaply run.
I already looked up 2007 during some Twitter stuff with Larsun and in 2007 RSL only had 4 players earning over $100K. Our shitty TFC team had 10 and it'd be 11 if I was to count Dunivant's $99,975 as $100K.
That's a another good reason why. Kries managed that team up to be good. Vanney hasn't 'managed up' anyone other than Morgan who he dumped as soon as he regained some form. That is the difference between the two. As for them managing established DPs? Jury remains out on both of them but at least one has shown he can get something from low to mid range MLSers.
I just don't think you can judge anything on their first full season.
It's like being judged in your first year of your job AND actually meeting your objectives.
If I was then fired I would burn the place down (which I realise would be difficult at BMO as its made of concrete and metal!).
The team underachieved relative to the collective talent on the roster. That falls on the coach. The only benefit of the doubt I'll give Vanney is that he had to contend with abysmal goalkeeping most of the season.
Actually, what the RSL fans said was much worse than what you will see about Vanney. They thought Kreis was a total idiot, dealing away their best players, seemingly clueless about tactics. He was a player promoted to coach, and was the cheap option. They had a terrible record for almost two seasons and then lucked into the playoffs by 1 point only because of TFC losing to NYRB (the last place team at the time) in the last game of 2009. The rest is history.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
That is why as much as I love us here and beyond, what fans/supporters think about who should be coach/gm, in the starting 11 is something I do not put much creedance into as it gets way too heated, emotional, heavy hearted etc. I love the banter we have but that is what it is, nothing more, nothing less but at the end of the day its up to decide what is right for the team and it's only time that will tell if it is.
I personally am really happy the Bez and Greg are being allowed to continue on, dealing with another change was just something that had no interest to me.
Remember The Man, The Legend, The Goal 5-12-07 and All That #9 Left On The Pitch, Thanks For The Memories !!!
Nope. Can't win that one unless you are the man.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
I do not want to be negative, but so many of the comparisons and logic used to justify as to why Vanney should be given another chance are so deeply flowed. I know they come from good places, but it is mostly overly positive. What Manning is saying is also not a vote of confidence, he is saying you are not cutting it, I give you 8 games, to prove me wrong. This is as good a chance as Vanney can expect. I would not give it to him, unless I do not think that I can find a coach that can keep the team progressing, but Manning has. However, it is not a vote of confidnece, it is more of what most in the thread have said, the team under him has improved offensively ( but Manning said what we have been saying with Giovinco and co- it would be hard for it not too)but it is not good enough defensively.
If he doesn't, then both should go.
who do you think will end up going first? Bez or Vanney ?
To me, if Vanney was our future saviour, it would shown in the games we were really down and then adjusted. I think that happened once this year, they game we came back to win. The rest of the time he failed to adjust.
Vanney had the entire season to make this team click and failed miserably. What makes you think that next season will be better? He will repeat all the same mistakes from this year and leave the backline exposed again.
I wouldn't say he failed miserably, but certainly short of expectations.
I'd suggest the truth lies between - how about failed significantly?
significant in my mind means not making the play offs, not breaking all club records (no matter how dismal) and making the play offs (no matter how short lived)
Let's just say that he failed in the biggest way possible when it really counted. There's absolutely nothing of value to take out of that Montreal game. Absolutely nothing. This is the sort of performance that gets managers fired all over the world. Also failed to win the last 2 games which saw us miss out on a home game.
It took bags of cash and the best player this league has EVER seen to help us to the last play-off spot. 6th in the East with 2 expansion teams.
It may have been the best season we've ever had, but we've had some of the worst seasons of any team - historically bad.
Last edited by Super; 11-04-2015 at 05:12 PM.
Once again, it depends on where you're seeing it from. I'm happy he's got another chance. He doesn't do better in his second season, I understand replacing him.
Did I not hear the team say that when that final stretch of home matches came and we were sitting in a good spot that a home playoff date was the goal?
I think that was what was said and that was a more ambitious and worthwhile goal than just making the playoffs and by those standards, we significantly failed. But most importantly we failed to fix the flaws that were evident during Vanney's 10 match run at the end of last season. It was promised during last season's postmortem, re-emphasized in spring training, and then mentioned all season long how the problems at the back were the number one priority to be fixed and the fundamental issue with our defense (the coaching/tactics) was never addressed. It probably won't be addressed this winter either.
To me that is the most significant failure. Forget cheap records and low bars; we didn't fix our squad. We had a whole season and a third to make something to build on defensively and we are no better off on that front than we were last November.
What concerns me the most is that when Vanney took over in the last 10 games of 2014 we conceded 1.5 goals per game. He talked about fixing that - because it was certainly a concern, but failed in the winter window, and in the summer window. Well, Bez and Vanney failed in bringing in GOOD replacements, and also failed in the summer window. We finished 2015 with a RECORD 1.7 goals against per game. Regular season.
This can absolutely be considered a miserable failure. I understand we technically made the play-offs, and that this was the goal, but even Bez said that NO ONE should be happy with the way the season ended. In other words: failure.
I am not 100% sure that if our CBs were Gonzalez and Marshall that we would have been amazing defensively. Better for sure but not great. People seem to want to not notice or accept that we weren't ever set up to prevent goals. Our whole set up allows our D to be overrun as they often were. When you push up our FBs so high and have wing players like Findley who doesn't track back, and mids that often roam free and didn't support the back line, you will give up goals. Many times there were numbers coming freely at our CBs. They can't do it all and they got burned accordingly. Better players can only do so much. Sometimes you need a better plan too.
Last edited by Ultra & Proud; 11-04-2015 at 05:42 PM.
Who says that Kreis would have done well for this team? Manning obviously doesn't think so. And from what I have read it doesn't sound like he would have. Kreis has excelled with non-dp teams. That's not tfc, quite the opposite in fact. Bruce Arena would be a good choice for tfc, not Kreis. I'm guessing that Manning is Mordecai than smart enough to realize this and doesn't have any better choices right now. That said, I don't think Vanney is the right guy either, for all the reasons that have been listed in this thread. Who knows, maybe Manning will find someone else before the spring, would be pretty stupid to say anything right now though.
Better defenders would have helped, but no doubt our tactics were not right most of the time. Hence the raining in of goals.
None of this speaks well of Vanney.
I personally think that Kreis is a much better coach. Certainly a more accomplished coach. He's well respected, and there's a reason why NYCFC threw a million dollars at the guy. He's a top notch MLS coach from the highest shelf - but fair enough, TFC always finds a reason to pass up on solutions and instead embrace problems.
Are you adding playoffs and friendlies in there, or have they added four games to the season?
Canadian Champ games?
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