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  1. #571
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonO View Post
    Not trying to justify what these guys did, but this is the part I don't get. Where is the threat of violence in this statement? Not only is there no explicit (or implicit) threat of violence, but I am not aware of any instances of this statement leading to any violence. It's vulgar, crass and rude, but violent? What am I missing?
    Fair question, so I want to answer it with respect.
    When a women (in this case one in the media) asks a question and wants to establish a topic- If the response is totally off topic and crude and sexually blunt, yes it is subtle and easily denied, but the change of topic can have violent implications. The uttering of the statement is meant to make the woman look bad. It also positions a male into having ALL the power. The violence comes in with the undertone that just as I can change this conversation to blunt sexual function, I could change your life with my sexual function(and maybe all you are good for is sexual function). Most of us are confused - we think sex- desire- maybe rape is an overflow of desire? But rape is all about power, not desire. Because there is no "hey baby, you are looking good" aspect- most of us guys don't pick up on the violence. The situation was "we are not going to talk about soccer, we don't have to stay on your topic, we are wielding our power and if you look bad - we will think that is funny (because it gives us more power)... I am no expert, but well read and I am trying to capture the ideas that will help you see the violence enmeshed in the situation....

  2. #572
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    Quote Originally Posted by Still Kicking View Post
    Fair question, so I want to answer it with respect.
    When a women (in this case one in the media) asks a question and wants to establish a topic- If the response is totally off topic and crude and sexually blunt, yes it is subtle and easily denied, but the change of topic can have violent implications. The uttering of the statement is meant to make the woman look bad. It also positions a male into having ALL the power. The violence comes in with the undertone that just as I can change this conversation to blunt sexual function, I could change your life with my sexual function(and maybe all you are good for is sexual function). Most of us are confused - we think sex- desire- maybe rape is an overflow of desire? But rape is all about power, not desire. Because there is no "hey baby, you are looking good" aspect- most of us guys don't pick up on the violence. The situation was "we are not going to talk about soccer, we don't have to stay on your topic, we are wielding our power and if you look bad - we will think that is funny (because it gives us more power)... I am no expert, but well read and I am trying to capture the ideas that will help you see the violence enmeshed in the situation....
    Additionally, violence is implicit in the context. If something similar is said to a 6' 2", 220 lb. male, it could be easily laughed off, but to a 5'2", 120 lb. woman, who's likely had to deal with sexual aggression most of her life, the context is WAY different. I imagine a gay male having to deal with homophobia in the locker room would have a different view of locker room humour - and its relationship to violence - than the average hetero male as well.

    It doesn't have to be blatantly obvious to be violent or threatening, either. Ask the CBC intern if she felt threatened with Jian Gomeshi when he allegedly told her: "I so want to hate fuck you". Pure violence, even if the tone of voice was soft and friendly!
    Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

  3. #573
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    Why is this thread still going.
    20 pages to talk about guys who did something while being drunk and foolish.

    /Thread.

  4. #574
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jahinho_Guerro View Post
    Why is this thread still going.
    20 pages to talk about guys who did something while being drunk and foolish.

    /Thread.
    Because sometimes a TFC issue connects with a larger issue in the world.

    I am incredibly proud of the way RPB commenters reacted to the news years ago that Robbie Rogers had "come out"

    I think that RPB's willingness to establish a french language song in support of TFC was a strong statement - it is possible to cheer against and boo Montreal without turning it into a slur against language and culture.

    The MLS "Don't Cross the Line" is a worthy message.

    Nobody is forcing you to read the thread. Some of us are trying to keep it civil and informative. My TFC (and my MLS) cares about our impact in the community beyond scores, standings and holding up a cup in December..

  5. #575
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Bigby View Post
    Additionally, violence is implicit in the context. If something similar is said to a 6' 2", 220 lb. male, it could be easily laughed off, but to a 5'2", 120 lb. woman, who's likely had to deal with sexual aggression most of her life, the context is WAY different. I imagine a gay male having to deal with homophobia in the locker room would have a different view of locker room humour - and its relationship to violence - than the average hetero male as well.

    It doesn't have to be blatantly obvious to be violent or threatening, either. Ask the CBC intern if she felt threatened with Jian Gomeshi when he allegedly told her: "I so want to hate fuck you". Pure violence, even if the tone of voice was soft and friendly!
    There is certainly an element of that, however if we're talking context you can't ignore this originated from an internet meme where the intent looks to be 100% disrupting a live broadcast and 0% actual action. To the casual viewer, who has no idea about the meme, this all comes across as shocking and awful. Not to say it isn't otherwise, but to me at least the genesis of this is: 1) douchy frat-boy humour 2) Society overlooking of some pretty awful messages with a sexual context.

    Obviously these guys were caught in a world where their intent (say stupid stuff in front of a camera) was brought to a larger audience and their lack of introspection combined with a bunch of other hot button issues saw them roundly roasted. And to be fair, you can't expect everyone to interpret things the same way and mouthing off to the camera was really what set people off.

    If they just sheepishly walked away and said we're sorry for our friend that would have been it. It would have gone down in history with one of the other 10,000x someone has jumped in front of a camera to say this dumb crap.

  6. #576
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    Quote Originally Posted by flamehawk View Post
    Ha, never would I imagine Foucault being mentioned here, but you are right, it's highly relevant to the discussions here.

    "People know what they do; frequently they know why they do what they do; but what they don't know is what what they do does.”
    Michel Foucault

    And that is why intentions don't matter, the the implicit is more dangerous than the explicit as it allows for problematic actions to be 'easy' or 'unchallenged'. Though ironically, I'd still see this act as more 'explicit' relative to other things in the context of the response, even though it may be more 'implicit' to those engrained in internet culture/those that participate in the 'meme'.

    For more accessible writing on the same topic, Stuart Hall is great. Relevant is his discussions of intertexuality: "Accumulation of meanings across different texts, where one image refers to another, or has its meaning altered by being 'read' in the context of other images". Once again, actions don't exist in a vacuum. We must examine context (gendered violence, sexist discourses) to see impact of an action/what an action does. Counter arguments state that "FHRIP" was only intended for its shock value and disruption, but why does this statement cause shock? Why does it elicit at the same time laughter? I think it was actually Foucault that suggests laughter/what we find funny as a good starting point for analyzing social control.

    ------

    “We have to be there at the birth of ideas, the bursting outward of their force: not in books expressing them, but in events manifesting this force, in struggles carried on around ideas, for or against them.”
    Michel Foucault

    Unfortunately, I am also more cynical about this being the 'tide that was held back for decades'. I see it more as appropriation at best of these forces. It's important to address this matter ... but it also individualizes sexism. The culprit is seen as without versus within. Fire the guy, absolve ourselves of sexism .. instead of addressing gendered wage disparities within the organizations, how the impact of utility costs disproportionately affect women, in the case of MLSE - the impact of their business model in relation to accessibility of sports/support of 'circuses' over bread and so forth. As much as I wouldn't shed much tears at the firing of the guy, I also don't think it can be understood as a great feminist act that breaks down sexism and gendered violence.
    I don't know who has done good writing on cynicism, but I imagine there's someone out there . In the meantime, we react to what's in front of us and try to stay moving in the right direction. Sure, it would be better if the reaction took in wage disparities (or even just opportunities - the guy in question here is an engineer, my wife received an engineering degree in the 80s and change is sloooow) but as the saying goes, perfect is the enemy of good. Just because the response wasn't the perfect one, maybe we shouldn't be too cynical about it. I think we have to be careful, because there is a lot of, "be patient" for change in that and what that really means is, "we're not going to change."

  7. #577
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beach_Red View Post
    I don't know who has done good writing on cynicism, but I imagine there's someone out there . In the meantime, we react to what's in front of us and try to stay moving in the right direction. Sure, it would be better if the reaction took in wage disparities (or even just opportunities - the guy in question here is an engineer, my wife received an engineering degree in the 80s and change is sloooow) but as the saying goes, perfect is the enemy of good. Just because the response wasn't the perfect one, maybe we shouldn't be too cynical about it. I think we have to be careful, because there is a lot of, "be patient" for change in that and what that really means is, "we're not going to change."
    I don't disagree. The concern is more when institutions try to use their response in these cases to deflect criticism regarding systemic issues.

    The other question is, would there have been as much traction or quick movement had it been a high ranking executive accused of sexual harassment?

    I am always going to be more skeptical of institutional responses, and my experience has been that they are always rather superficial. I suppose that just points to the importance of social movements and the broader public to keep pushing for accountability, a reminder that the battle has no quick end.

  8. #578
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    So CityTV apparently edited the footage before it went on air. Here are the edits:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltvw...ature=youtu.be

    Make of it what you will... I think some of the questions raised by the video poster are a bit much but none the less.
    Last edited by ag futbol; 05-17-2015 at 10:02 PM.

  9. #579
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    Quote Originally Posted by Still Kicking View Post
    Fair question, so I want to answer it with respect.
    When a women (in this case one in the media) asks a question and wants to establish a topic- If the response is totally off topic and crude and sexually blunt, yes it is subtle and easily denied, but the change of topic can have violent implications. The uttering of the statement is meant to make the woman look bad. It also positions a male into having ALL the power. The violence comes in with the undertone that just as I can change this conversation to blunt sexual function, I could change your life with my sexual function(and maybe all you are good for is sexual function). Most of us are confused - we think sex- desire- maybe rape is an overflow of desire? But rape is all about power, not desire. Because there is no "hey baby, you are looking good" aspect- most of us guys don't pick up on the violence. The situation was "we are not going to talk about soccer, we don't have to stay on your topic, we are wielding our power and if you look bad - we will think that is funny (because it gives us more power)... I am no expert, but well read and I am trying to capture the ideas that will help you see the violence enmeshed in the situation....

    And she fucking responded just as I would by confronting them, fucking good on her, telling them I will not take this shit you drunken idiots, and at least they stood and responded. End of the fucking story, not need for fucking state intervention.

  10. #580
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    Quote Originally Posted by Still Kicking View Post

    I am incredibly proud of the way RPB commenters reacted to the news years ago that Robbie Rogers had "come out"

    I think that RPB's willingness to establish a french language song in support of TFC was a strong statement - it is possible to cheer against and boo Montreal without turning it into a slur against language and culture.
    Yes, the RPB supported Robbie Rogers.

    We can't take credit for the French song, however, that was originally from U-Sector. We have supported and used it, though.

  11. #581
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    So CityTV apparently edited the footage before it went on air. Here are the edits:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltvw...ature=youtu.be

    Make of it what you will... I think some of the questions raised by the video poster are a bit much but none the less.
    and after watching this, explains why I don't get concerned with this shit. There's two sides to how this story developed, but the sticking point is the vulgar statement.

    My thing is She was at a soccer game, but decided to pursue questions like she was live and direct at the scene of a homicide.
    Well kudos to her because she got that dude busted in the first 48hrs, and he didn't even want a burger or anything....just some stupid tv time.

  12. #582
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red CB Toronto View Post
    We are just fine, we need to keep it open for some of the Respect2Women things we may do in the stadium, I for one am designing a banner. We are united.
    Dude, just let it go. That's lame, please don't do that. And if you do, let me know what section you're in so I can GTFO of there.

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    Here we are a week later and everyone has stopped chasing the dude who actually said it.

    But the news cycle is over so...

  14. #584
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartinUtd View Post
    Dude, just let it go. That's lame, please don't do that. And if you do, let me know what section you're in so I can GTFO of there.
    And yes, martin is right. My understanding is we don't do political banners, we do soccer banners.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Califax View Post
    And yes, martin is right. My understanding is we don't do political banners, we do soccer banners.
    Pigs must be flying because I agree with you 2. Would be extremely embarassing to have a respect4women banner in the stands.

  16. #586
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    20 Pages is just about enough.

  17. #587
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red CB Toronto View Post
    We are just fine, we need to keep it open for some of the Respect2Women things we may do in the stadium, I for one am designing a banner. We are united.
    We said our piece as a group. If you feel you need to keep this initiative going then feel free. We're going to get to supporting the team.
    FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER

 

 

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