Argos to BMO decision - Wednesday, May 20th

[greatwhitenorf]

True, but MLSE is looking to make a huge profit which they can at bigger stadium like Rogers Centre than BMO field. Also, it isn't uncommon to host "outdoor" game in domed stadium (example: Vancouver hosting it at BC place)

No doubt Rogers would love to see an outdoor game in the baseball stadium they own. That's win-win squared. For maximum value, they'd have to have the Habs in as opponents.

After that, people will learn that sitting three or four or five, even ten times further away from the action as they would at the ACC is nothing to get excited about and it would be a tougher sell. They'd also want to stage outdoor games against a number of other worthy rivals like Buffalo, Detroit, Ottawa.

So, by shifting subsequent games to BMO Field, they'll be able to market a fresher, more intimate experience because fans would only be two or three or four times as far away. They'd also have the CNE grounds to expand game-related events to and by the time the second or later games are arranged, the roof is on at BMO and all the logistics there are well in hand.

[greatwhitenorf]

The NFL-to-Toronto talking might have stopped.

Don't assume the NFL-to-Toronto thinking hasn't.

If MLSE take over the Argos, that absolves the NFL of any guilt should an NFL-to-Toronto opportunity arise.

[Beach_Red]

^ I didn't realize there was any ownership looking into it. Without corporate ownership - which the NFL doesn't allow - and no stadium I didn't think there was anyone interested in spending the money it would take to bring a team to Toronto.

[Blizzard]

I agree, but that is pure plastic.

We are talking about the hybrid stuff, so the ground can get torn up when lets say a 300 lb dude is digging in for tackles. The elements can be at play along with the stress on the surface. If lets say the Argos play on a sloppy weather weekend, is the pitch going to be ready for a CCL game on the following Wednesday night?

I'm late to this but Phil is right. The grass may end up looking fine but it may also be hiding the lack of smoothness of the earth under the grass.

This used to be the case regularly when the Blizzard were sharing Varsity with the U of T Blues way back when. It also used to be the case in Edmonton when the CMNT was playing during the CFL season. Even if they'd managed to clean up the lines and keep the grass healthy, we'd later hear about how awful the footing was between the hash marks and the bad bounces were obvious to all of us.

In regards to scheduling of CCL, ya, we could be screwed if we can't get the matches schedule for the week after a TFC match ..... or, as often they are back to back/week to week, we might have to play the first or second match away depending on how the the schedule comes to together.

Whatever happens, it will be a challenge for TFC management. I just hope we can put this off to the 2018 season (at the earliest). I also wish MLSE hadn't put so much money into the current stadium so that it would be easier to walk away to a new facility if the Argos thing turns out to be a disaster. They're not going to walk away from BMO anytime soon after this investment.

[Fort York Redcoat]

The NFL-to-Toronto talking might have stopped.

Don't assume the NFL-to-Toronto thinking hasn't.

If MLSE take over the Argos, that absolves the NFL of any guilt should an NFL-to-Toronto opportunity arise.

^ I didn't realize there was any ownership looking into it. Without corporate ownership - which the NFL doesn't allow - and no stadium I didn't think there was anyone interested in spending the money it would take to bring a team to Toronto.

I think we're seeing gridiron prioritizing. Why think about NFL to Toronto when the homeless Argos question has to come first?

Once that's done I'll start the "NFL team to expanded BMO" thread

[Initial B]

I'm late to this but Phil is right. The grass may end up looking fine but it may also be hiding the lack of smoothness of the earth under the grass.

In that case, they'll probably use a water drum like I use on my lawn to flatten it out after every CFL game. I think professional groundskeepers will know how to remove any lumpiness from the pitch.

[Blizzard]

In that case, they'll probably use a water drum like I use on my lawn to flatten it out after every CFL game. I think professional groundskeepers will know how to remove any lumpiness from the pitch.

As a last resort, they could do that. It's terrible for the health of the field though. I suppose that as long as they aerate it immediately afterwards, it could be ok. Not sure how heavy they can go considering all the builg in drainage pipes that exist though.

[MightyDM]

In that case, they'll probably use a water drum like I use on my lawn to flatten it out after every CFL game. I think professional groundskeepers will know how to remove any lumpiness from the pitch.

They didn't seem to know how at Wembley. It's a very real concern. It isn't that long ago that we had trouble recruiting DP's because of our turf. A shared use field adds back that barrier. Imagine if someone got hurt! Is a Giovenco going to be so ready to come here? It will certainly be a barrier.

[Justin10000]

It's amazing MLSE will prioritize 8 CFL games over 18 TFC games.

[Mulder]

It's amazing MLSE will prioritize 8 CFL games over 18 TFC games.

10 actually. (11 including playoffs)

[Wagner]

Maybe 1 preseason, although they seem to move that around, Varsity, Universities.

Likely 9 regular season home games, although there is chance they could be involved in the Atlantic Canada games.
and then approx 50/50 hosting a playoff game.

So anywhere from 8 to 11 Argo Events.
From Canada day until Mid November.

[pdogg]

Maybe 1 preseason, although they seem to move that around, Varsity, Universities.

Likely 9 regular season home games, although there is chance they could be involved in the Atlantic Canada games.
and then approx 50/50 hosting a playoff game.

So anywhere from 8 to 11 Argo Events.
From Canada day until Mid November.

And in the same vein, it would not affect all 18 TFC games, just those after July 1st. Having said that, it should affect 0 games, with us being the primary tenant and the necessity for a better surface than for a CFL game.

[TFC07]

The NFL-to-Toronto talking might have stopped.

Don't assume the NFL-to-Toronto thinking hasn't.

If MLSE take over the Argos, that absolves the NFL of any guilt should an NFL-to-Toronto opportunity arise.

NFL in Toronto?

NFL will only come to Toronto as part of their international expansion, but I highly doubt that will happen since no one with money (please don't say Larry T or Rogers since those guys don't have money to buy NFL team AND build NFL size stadium) wants to have a team in Toronto or any other Canadian city and build a $1 billion stadium (I don't see tax dollars being used unless it's for hosting World Cup or Summer Olympics).

[Fort York Redcoat]

NFL in Toronto?

NFL will only come to Toronto as part of their international expansion, but I highly doubt that will happen since no one with money (please don't say Larry T or Rogers since those guys don't have money to buy NFL team AND build NFL size stadium) wants to have a team in Toronto or any other Canadian city and build a $1 billion stadium (I don't see tax dollars being used unless it's for hosting World Cup or Summer Olympics).

We're already talking about hosting a World Cup. While I think its as ludicrous as an NFL team here it's a rumour for a reason.

[greatwhitenorf]

NFL in Toronto?


NFL will only come to Toronto as part of their international expansion, but I highly doubt that will happen since no one with money (please don't say Larry T or Rogers since those guys don't have money to buy NFL team AND build NFL size stadium) wants to have a team in Toronto or any other Canadian city and build a $1 billion stadium (I don't see tax dollars being used unless it's for hosting World Cup or Summer Olympics).

A great many current NFL cities look like villages compared to Toronto. Every other major league sport in North America is here and prospering. That's not lost on influential owners like Jerry Jones, a man who has rolled the bones big time with his own franchise and is looking to see less-ambitious lodge brethren get off their wallets and do likewise.

The potential to grow franchise value is beginning to find its upper boundary with the current franchise alignment. NFL owners are looking to see the league move into bigger markets to keep franchise values from declining. If London, England and Los Angeles (x2) are in the works, why not Toronto? It would instantly be more valuable than current situations in Oakland, Jacksonville, St. Louis, Buffalo and Minnesota and with a new stadium, it would easily leap ahead of many other small-market American franchises - Cincinnati, Charlotte, Tampa Bay, New Orleans, maybe Detroit and Cleveland.

The only reason the Bills aren't here is the unpickable lock created in the stadium lease deal and a sugar daddy owner - the Abramovitch of Amherst - who sees the Bills as a vanity project. Otherwise, the money and will were there to move the Bills north.

Ironically, that might have made it easier to keep the Argos alive. Like the Marlies. A certifiable money losing operation, but one that serves MLSE's greater purpose.

So, if they end up owning the Argos, it only serves to further stir up the NFL conspiracy theories.

[OgtheDim]

The Bills move thing.


The Toronto group got Jon Bon Jovi as the front person.

He was never seriously considered cause his net worth is only $350 million.

Until one of Canada's 30 or so billionaires cares to venture into that stuff, NFL ain't coming here.

[greatwhitenorf]

And in the same vein, it would not affect all 18 TFC games, just those after July 1st. Having said that, it should affect 0 games, with us being the primary tenant and the necessity for a better surface than for a CFL game.

You're just looking at regular season MLS games. What about the effect on Champions League games, international friendlies or men's and women's national team games? I realize that some of those games are outside MLSE's domain, but the sport of soccer has the ability to bring more than 30 games to BMO Field annually. Add CFL football to that and the pitch is bound to take an absolute pounding, especially in autumn when we might be pursuing or hosting playoff games.

[greatwhitenorf]

The Bills move thing.


The Toronto group got Jon Bon Jovi as the front person.

He was never seriously considered cause his net worth is only $350 million.

Until one of Canada's 30 or so billionaires cares to venture into that stuff, NFL ain't coming here.

The Toronto group weren't that far south of Pegula's over-inflated bid. I believe Larry T wouldn't have a hard time getting the boy Rogers on the blower if something came up.

[OgtheDim]

The Toronto group weren't that far south of Pegula's over-inflated bid. I believe Larry T wouldn't have a hard time getting the boy Rogers on the blower if something came up.

He had years to do that. Didn't happen. They knew darn well they needed a billionaire front boy and couldn't persuade any of the Canadian ones to give up a big chunk of their personal and family fortune for the sake of a sports franchise. Larry T is NOT that persuasive. (And I heard the Bon Jovi group was off by $750 million.)

Its done, for the next 20 years. The generation with cash and influence who were most interested in this are getting old. If there is a Canadian interested in running a sports team who is around 30 now and who becomes a billionaire in the next 10 years, might happen 10 years after that.

Until then, the NFL to Toronto talk is dead.

[mowe]

The Toronto group weren't that far south of Pegula's over-inflated bid. I believe Larry T wouldn't have a hard time getting the boy Rogers on the blower if something came up.

Something did come up. The Bills were up for sale. That was by far Toronto's best chance at a team and they fell short.

Now they have to hope for another NFL team to be sold or an expansion team to be awarded. In either case there will be many more bidders that will be in front of the line. There just isn't enough money in Toronto to buy an NFL team and build a stadium.

[greatwhitenorf]

No. Toronto bidders never really had a chance. The terms of the stadium lease set up an unpickable financial lock. Punitive terms to break it.

What the NFL were content to see happen was having the Toronto bid used as a stalking horse to get Pegula's bid up and not have a him win in a walkover with a bid below $900 million. A lot of owners would have been upset to see the Bills sale work to lower the average value of their franchises.

There's more than enough money in Toronto to buy a franchise and build a stadium. And, if need be, own and operate the Argonauts at their normal annual loss.

[Beach_Red]

No. Toronto bidders never really had a chance. The terms of the stadium lease set up an unpickable financial lock. Punitive terms to break it.

What the NFL were content to see happen was having the Toronto bid used as a stalking horse to get Pegula's bid up and not have a him win in a walkover with a bid below $900 million. A lot of owners would have been upset to see the Bills sale work to lower the average value of their franchises.

There's more than enough money in Toronto to buy a franchise and build a stadium. And, if need be, own and operate the Argonauts at their normal annual loss.

Personally I don't care of the NFL comes or not, it's really a TV show now, not a live experience. Who watches one NFL game at a time when there's red zone?

But the money has never been the issue. Sure, there's enough money in Toronto, there's also enough money to have our own movie/TV business or car company but there isn't the need (or the leadership). I'm kind of glad no Canadian billionaire wants to spend that kind of money on an NFL team.

[mowe]

No. Toronto bidders never really had a chance. The terms of the stadium lease set up an unpickable financial lock. Punitive terms to break it.

What the NFL were content to see happen was having the Toronto bid used as a stalking horse to get Pegula's bid up and not have a him win in a walkover with a bid below $900 million. A lot of owners would have been upset to see the Bills sale work to lower the average value of their franchises.

There's more than enough money in Toronto to buy a franchise and build a stadium. And, if need be, own and operate the Argonauts at their normal annual loss.

The lease had an opt-out after the 2019 season for $28 million. The Wilsons were comitted to selling to the highest bidder. Why didn't Tanenbaum do everything he could to make sure he had the highest bid? This was his best chance to own an NFL team, and he had the option to pull a Seattle-OKC in 5 years.

I remain unconvinced that there is a willingness here to put together $2.5 billion plus to bring a team and stadium to Toronto. The only way we get a stadium is if we host the World Cup or Olympics. The chances of either are slim to none.

[greatwhitenorf]

The lease had an opt-out after the 2019 season for $28 million. The Wilsons were comitted to selling to the highest bidder. Why didn't Tanenbaum do everything he could to make sure he had the highest bid? This was his best chance to own an NFL team, and he had the option to pull a Seattle-OKC in 5 years.

I remain unconvinced that there is a willingness here to put together $2.5 billion plus to bring a team and stadium to Toronto. The only way we get a stadium is if we host the World Cup or Olympics. The chances of either are slim to none.

Had the Toronto group won the bid, it would have taken some brass to pretend to Western New York's ticket-buying public and Bills sponsors that the team was sticking around while, sooner or later, word would have leaked out about plans to build a new stadium in Toronto. That would quickly have led to two or three seasons of no fans and no sponsors, which would have added up to hundreds of millions in losses until they moved.

The optics on it would have been terrible and a shabby way for Toronto to get into the NFL.

If Tanenbaum and his group were truly serious about delivering the highest bid, then Jon Bon Jovi would not have been lead sled dog. His net worth wasn't sufficient to allow the Toronto group to bid much above $900 million. What this venture looked like was a group of potential buyers exploring the process while serving a useful purpose to the NFL to push the Pegula bid higher. Toronto didn't get the Bills, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but they probably garnered some goodwill from certain owners and gained valuable experience and insight into NFL workings.

[greatwhitenorf]

http://www.thestar.com/news/queenspa...been-paid.html

Legal and financial shitstorm about to engulf Tim Horton Field as unpaid sub-contractors chase money they're owed. Liens out the ying-yang.

It would seem that appeasing the CFL by rushing to complete the project has jacked up costs and exacerbated these problems.

Yet another reason to keep BMO Field a CFL-free zone.

[Fort York Redcoat]

http://www.thestar.com/news/queenspa...been-paid.html

Legal and financial shitstorm about to engulf Tim Horton Field as unpaid sub-contractors chase money they're owed. Liens out the ying-yang.

It would seem that appeasing the CFL by rushing to complete the project has jacked up costs and exacerbated these problems.

Yet another reason to keep BMO Field a CFL-free zone.

Correct me if I'm wrong but June 8 is their preseason at Macmaster and then they don't play at home (THfield) till Aug after the Games are finished so aren't they rushing for the Games, not the CFL?

[Mulder]

http://www.thestar.com/news/queenspa...been-paid.html

Legal and financial shitstorm about to engulf Tim Horton Field as unpaid sub-contractors chase money they're owed. Liens out the ying-yang.

It would seem that appeasing the CFL by rushing to complete the project has jacked up costs and exacerbated these problems.

Yet another reason to keep BMO Field a CFL-free zone.

Quite the piece of work you are if you think that's a legit reason to keep BMO a CFL free zone.

THF was a design-finance-build, the contractor knew when it had to be complete by. They also knew it was a 1m per game penalty if the Ticats had to miss a game there. They are also technically the 'owner' of the stadium and cannot transfer ownership and get paid from Infrastructure Ontario until all liens are taken care of. (clearly mentioned in the above article, that you clearly did not read). - So it's a matter between the sub-contractors and general contractor.

You seem to always type an awful lot without saying anything.

[Red CB Toronto]

Correct me if I'm wrong but June 8 is their preseason at Macmaster and then they don't play at home (THfield) till Aug after the Games are finished so aren't they rushing for the Games, not the CFL?

As of right now the Ticats June 8th pre-season game is scheduled for Tim Horton's Field. Now that could change, you never know. The stadium still has not been handed over to the city and for each CFL game played there, a temporary permit is issued for the day.

http://www.ticats.ca/article/tiger-c...dule-announced

[Mulder]

Correct me if I'm wrong but June 8 is their preseason at Macmaster and then they don't play at home (THfield) till Aug after the Games are finished so aren't they rushing for the Games, not the CFL?

"The Ticats will give their fans a first glimpse of the 2015 team when they open the CFL pre-season by hosting the Ottawa REDBLACKS at Tim Hortons Field on Monday, June 8."


He was referring to last season. When construction was delayed for a various amount of reasons and the ticats were forced to play their first 3 home games at McMaster. Because clearly, it was the Ticats & CFL's fault they were told the stadium would be ready July 26th (last year) and because it wasn't, perfect reason for no CFL at BMO.

[OgtheDim]

THF woes have nothing to do with it being for CFL and have no bearing on the Argo's to BMO.

That project was poorly managed. We'll see if BMO expansion is as poorly managed, but it doesn't look like it so far.