$120M to build the stadium somewhere else? Does that factor in the cost of land acquisition, rezoning, permit application, transportation linkages, accessible parking etc?Originally Posted by Blizzard
$120M to build the stadium somewhere else? Does that factor in the cost of land acquisition, rezoning, permit application, transportation linkages, accessible parking etc?
Jloome said it best. This is about atmosphere and the emotion associated with the team.
Of course folks care about results but if winning quality football is your aim you wouldn't choose TFC and you probably wouldn't choose MLS 2.0 now with 10% more playoff qualification.
The issue of the lines or pitch is emotional and reflects an emotional association with this particular club. If it was about winning and nothing else, you could cheer for any club in MLS not just the local one.
They are risking that relationship and I think it is causing a number to rethink how vested they are in the club if the ownership isn't equally vested in itself.
Just a couple of observations.
- If there ends up being no North Stands (which I'm not sure is the case) - is that really such a big deal? There wasn't a north stand the first few seasons at BMO and everybody raved about the atmosphere at the place and many really enjoyed the north end patio
- I'm assuming that like THF the football configuration for BMO will have both benches on one side - and it will not be on what area is used as the soccer pitch so I think the sidelines is not a worry. The likely areas where wear and tear will possibly be a problem is in the mid field area.
- I'm amazed so many are so hung up on the deal breaker being if they see some faded lines on the pitch. Faded hard to see lines will have ZERO impact on my ability to enjoy a good soccer game, just like having ads on the boards and ads on the ice at NHL games have zero impact on me being able to enjoy a hockey game or all the funky paint jobs on NBA floors have zero impact on my ability to enjoy basketball games. Those huge electronic ribbon advertising boards that ring the field already (in all soccer leagues) are way more distracting at times than a few faded lines will ever be IMO.
Last edited by TravelPat; 05-21-2015 at 12:43 PM.
Ever play on a pitch with extra lines? It effects the game.
If you want to be "professional" soccer club and want to be taken seriously by soccer fans in this market, then you need to do things right. Having football lines is bush league which will make it harder for soccer fans to take soccer at BMO field seriously. Remember in this market, soccer fanbase is a lot more purists compare to other MLS markets. TFC is a success off-field despite on-field results because they actually market to soccer fans not to soccer moms which other MLS markets do.
Also, main concern is turf (grass) which affect quality of play based on condition of field. So far, MLSE hasn't shown any proof that they're capable of maintaining turf or show any evidence that it can workout. So far, they have been telling us to trust them which is hard thing to do based on their history.
Tim Leiweke's words are useless since he's gone by end of next month, so unless Bell and Larry T come out and defend their plan to maintain turf, then we got every right to question and even consider not renewing our tickets for next year.
Both points outline a step backwards for the game at BMO. Apparently you are one of the many it doesn't bother.
I am not alone in thinking gridiron lines make the stadium look like a joke. We've all laughed, and sneered at other MLS stadiums that don't have SSS that respect the game.
Compromise when none was necessary is a difference in standards.
It's all perspective. See NHL jersey sponsorship discussion compared to IHF tourney jersey sponsorship.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
Nobody sits on those benches. They all stand within 4 metres of the sideline. So, yes it is an issue. Especially as it requires moving out the tables/lounge chairs on both sides of the pitch that are behind the advertising hordings, even if both teams are on the same side like at TMH.
genuine question:
Did the various supporters groups work together to try and dissuade MLSE from bringing in the Argos ? And I'm talking over the past year or so , not the past few weeks?
oh God no
if there are gridiron lines, I'm going to get much more creative with my protest.
there cannot be extra lines on the pitch
No, it doesn't. You determine what's sensible by exploring all of the possibilities. If you don't think a second-rate fan experience could threaten TFC's financial viability long-term, then I have to disagree.
The Argos, conversely, will never get bigger. They can't. The league is limited by geography, size, scopy and interest to where it already is. So MLSE may profit in the way you state, but to suggest that ignores how Canadian soccer fans treated the game when they were given an inferior product. We already have a team that doens't win; do we really want them on a shit pitch, with stands too far away and possibly gridiron lines?
I don't think this is nearly as cut-and-dried as you think it is. If it were, the CSL might have survived.
that could have easily been done at the ontario soccer centre in vaughn for that price.
Thats where sporting Kansas City put their stadium with success.
ML$E choose to stay downtown and not have total control over the stadium.
I have never missed a single minute of TFC save for one game in an emergency, in the team's history. I have spent considerable time and money flying to games from western Canada. I am on this board for probably 90 min. a day. And yet I am seriously considering what I'll do if it goes down this road and they are wrong about the gameday impact.
Why, if I'm not there most of the time? Because I know human nature. People glammed onto this team in the first place because it felt like a European club: chants, real pros, chip butties and beer, fan TIFOS. But that stuff RELIES on people considering it a serious football club, with serious intentions. This is demonstrating MLSE is willing to risk all of that.
One day, I hope we will get to the stage in this country that someone with money will have the common sense to listen to hardcore fans, the ones who drive the sheer existence of the beast, instead of caving to cultural hegemony from traditionalists in the sports media and establishment. All of the Canadian MLS clubs have proven that if you spent even what the CFL does on player salaries -- about $5 million a year -- you can produce a quality, well-attended, community supported soccer club. I don't think there's any logical reason, other than ignorance, why we couldn't do this alone in Canada, or even have more Canadian cities in MLS (and the INEVITABLE MLS2).
Can I ask a stupid question, probably something only an aspie like me would miss:
If there's still line residue on the field, can't they paint it with green paint? If putting down white paint for the lines leaves damage, can 't they just camouflage it. Or is that too expensive or something? You know, put it down a day earlier so it's set by game time.
You know I agree with you. But here's the problem - someone with money and community supported. One is a franchise and one is a club. the weird thing is that the CFL was once close to this idea with community-owned teams. It could certainly work to have community-owned soccer teams playing in community-owned stadiums.
It's not going to happen, of course, but it could work.
Its been brought up in meetings and at STH events and always evaded.
Then it becomes the pass the buck game - nothing official being talked about, then talks have broken off and its not happening, then the province and city demand it, then the prime minister, then ownership splinters, then 'look at the new stadium'.
I have been on them for over 2 years about this and its always been the shell game.
Road Trips: July 7 2007 Chicago, July 22nd 2007 Columbus, August 11 2007 NY, October 13 2007 LA, March 29 2008 Columbus, May 24th 2008 DC, May 26 2008 Montreal, June 28th 2008 NE, March 7-11-14 2009 Charleston, March 28 2009 Columbus, April 10 2010 New England, May 12 2010 Montreal, April 7 2012 Montreal, March 16 2013 Montreal , June 3 2014 Montreal, March 14 2015 Columbus
Twitter: @RPBPhil
I've seen faded white lines been painted green before. The green paint they use is generally not the same shade of green as the grass so you can still tell there were other markings on the field.
Yeah always the same answers....conversations have taken place but nothing has been agreed to. Every time TL was asked....same answer. Although, if I recall, I am pretty sure he mentioned on at least one occasion that they wouldn't do anything without talking to the SSH's first. By that he didn't mean to get our opinion I am sure. He knew what that was. I don't remember him asking what we thought in any sort of communication. Maybe it is all a dream and none of this is happening....hard to say...I am getting old.
Yeah painting lines green is crap. Looks as bad as the white lines because it just looks like a half-assed cover up attempt.
Bottom line for me; Desso will not work. At least not enough to keep most of us and more devoted supporters happy. At best, there will be no lines but definite worn patches where the hash marks are. It will be shit. The question is exactly how shit will it be?
And yes the deal is done and settled but really, I am most disappointed that they aren't considering the roll over turf system. It's really the only viable option is my eyes. Like this, I expect next season will probably be my last.
Do you think that may be part of the selling feature of the team? Do you not have huge marches to the stadium from bars and high density/commercially zoned areas? Do you believe that something like this would be allowed in Vaughan? I suggest you talk to some of the LA Galaxy faithful and find out why they need to play games at specific times because of noise pollution (residents complaining).
My idea of going to a sporting event is to make it an actual event.. visit a City's downtown, spend time in a bar pre or post game, check out the sites and then head home. Maybe you're different than me but I don't see anything appealing about driving to a massive parking lot in suburbia to watch the game and leave asap.
Back to your comment about it being easily done, you say that like it's a fact but you don't realize all the steps that are involved with such a development (permits, residential inquiries/input, traffic flow, parking space). Kansas City isn't Toronto. We're all about to see the difference between a suburban stadium and one that is located closer to the core. That being LAFC. Cannot wait to see how that team draws in comparison to LA Galaxy.
Last edited by barticusz; 05-21-2015 at 03:13 PM.
Yeah always the same answers....conversations have taken place but nothing has been agreed to. Every time TL was asked....same answer. Although, if I recall, I am pretty sure he mentioned on at least one occasion that they wouldn't do anything without talking to the SSH's first. By that he didn't mean to get our opinion I am sure. He knew what that was. I don't remember him asking what we thought in any sort of communication. Maybe it is all a dream and none of this is happening....hard to say...I am getting old.
to be honest, if MLSE and levels of government had this down to get done there is likely nothing supporters could have done.
Nonetheless, supporting TFC is becoming an abusive relationship, and there is a limit to how often people will go back for another beating.
First sign of lines of the pitch, and I'm done.
I am willing to believe TL as he is a soccer guy, but once he is gone and some puck head who has the usual disdain for soccer replaces him, we could be in some serious trouble regarding all the promises TL has made.
We all know exactly how much we can trust the suits at mlse...
Downtown stadiums are soooooo much better then suburban. Everybody but SKC has struggled in the suburbs.
FC Edmonton Field yesterday. Granted that it is turf, there were CFL lines on the field on May 19th, one day before the game. I have to say this doesn't bother me.
Highlights of the match for a better view of the field:
https://youtu.be/6w96Ib1CXBw
Going through Chester on the shuttle from the train station to PPL Park is like going through a war zone. Man I am glad I do not have to do that week in, week out. Now once at the stadium its a different story, pretty nice inside and along the water.
Remember The Man, The Legend, The Goal 5-12-07 and All That #9 Left On The Pitch, Thanks For The Memories !!!
Yeah if you live in downtown core.
Getting to downtown Toronto from suburbs isn't exactly easy especially when you're dealing with transit and road closure.
Varsity Stadium would have been an easier location, but good point - the TTC has become pretty unreliable and the city goes construction-crazy in summer. BMO isn't a great location in my books.
Admittedly I live in Willowdale and am thus spoiled rotten for transit options from my inner suburb perch.
But, like it or not, the critical mass of transportation in this city serves the downtown - its the only real employment node in the city.
2 streetcar lines and another within walking distance, a suburban train line a direct bus line and an other within walking distance....that's hard to beat to get to if you don't want to drive. Only better place is the ACC.
Compare that to anywhere north of Steeles and people just won't go. We then become like the Argos - a team supported by 905ers, who skew older.
I also grew up in Kitchener where the busiest bus line was every 7 minutes, with most being every 20 during rush hour - so maybe I'm a bit biased.
I live in Toronto proper, but not downtown, and it is a pain to get to. If it was on the subway line it would be a breeze. I can get to Union station from home on the subway in about 30 minutes. BMO is physically closer, and takes me about an hour to get to.
Other MLS teams would kill for a location like BMO.
I used to live within walking distance of BMO and on those same transit lines (which I relied on to get to work). It is an absolute mess. The streetcars are overloaded and the streets are rammed. Traffic in that area was set up to serve an industrial & comerical area in King West. The condo explosion has seen 10s of thousands of people move in there and the transportation arteries have done little to nothing to keep up. It is a disaster. I lived there before the condo explosion and it was decent. Every year I was there it got worse and worse.
The buses. That is my route now. Subway across the Bloor line then down on the bus. For perspective - Google maps puts me at an 11 minute drive from BMO. The TTC route planner puts me at 35 minutes from BMO (I take transit and never drive though). In practice, I need to leave an hour and a half early to make there for kick off to account for delays, which occur most games.
RE painting green over residual white lines -- yes it can be done as others have mentioned.
I've also seen them paint the pitch green if it's a bit brown or damaged. Pretty funny when it gets all over the players' legs & uniforms.
Hopefully we don't have to get too deeply into the downtown/suburban stadium issue here. It's been discussed so many times. Yes it's easier to build outside the city. But the stadiums closer to downtown have been seen as a big part of the MLS 2.0+ success (even if it's not the case in every MLS city). Yes it's often very annoying to get to BMO Field. But despite all the road and transit hassles, if you look at travel time contour maps, near downtown is where the largest number of people can reach the stadium in a given amount of time, including via a variety of travel modes. Especially if you're trying to capture some of the young urban demographic, and not just the soccer family crowd. Downsview would also be acceptable, but only if access from the subway is quick and easy. Vaughan would be a very tough sell.
Argos should have swung a Pan Am-related deal with York University. Or with Ryerson in the port lands. Or I guess MLSE could have done that for TFC, instead of extending at BMO. Leaving BMO for the Argos, which wouldn't have worked, since they couldn't afford it on their own, and it would be a huge loss in income for the city. (But they say TFC fans act entitled about BMO Field...)
Last edited by Auzzy; 05-21-2015 at 03:57 PM.
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