Argos to BMO decision - Wednesday, May 20th

[Cashcleaner]

I think ultimately if the City wants this done, then MLSE can't do too much about it. However, I've seen little evidence that the City is leaning THAT hard on them, and plenty of evidence that MLSE/Leiweke WANT the Argos to come to BMO, because they're convinced they can have their good playing surface cake, and eat it too. They want BMO Field to become a hub for all kinds of sports and events, because obviously it makes them more money.

Of course, it has also been made abundantly clear to Leiweke that the fans don't want this move, and it's clear that he's gotten that message, because he's commented about the sentiment publicly. At this point, what can you do? You either walk away from the team (which I think would be incredibly premature, to say the least), or b) make noise so they do everything possible to try and preserve the soccer experience for the fans and team alike, and remain cautiously hopeful that they will take that to heart.

My hope is that these talks fall through because no one wants to put up the money necessary to do the retrofitting for the Argos, and they go somewhere else.

Yep, I'd agree with all that. And like you mentioned, the ball isn't really in one particular court - both MLSE and the City have a say when it comes to usage of the facility. And you're right about the lack of pressure from the city to put this plan in motion, although council may just figure it has bigger fish to fry now with the new mayor and his new platform focused at transit and city infrastructure.

[Shakes McQueen]

Yep, I'd agree with all that. And like you mentioned, the ball isn't really in one particular court - both MLSE and the City have a say when it comes to usage of the facility. And you're right about the lack of pressure from the city to put this plan in motion, although council may just figure it has bigger fish to fry now with the new mayor and his new platform focused at transit and city infrastructure.

It's possible that, privately, councilors are putting pressure on MLSE to accommodate the Argos - but there certainly hasn't been any public evidence of this. On the other hand, there was lots of talk from people Leiweke, about the various kinds of events they'd like to see at BMO Field.

I'd say there's still likely to be serious hurdles to the Argos coming to BMO - for starters, I wouldn't be shocked if they have to come up with the money for the renovations to the stands to accommodate the CFL field. Considering Braley (over-) values his entire team at around $10 million, there's no chance he puts up that cash. Which leaves the CFL itself. And "garnishing" lost revenues for teams who are still waiting for their new stadium to be finished (an example previously offered by someone), is not even close to the same as the CFL putting up money to get one of their teams a new home.

And if the money is put up as a loan of sorts to the Argos, that's only going to make buying the team that much less appealing. I'll go on the record as saying if they don't end up in BMO, the Argos probably end up playing in the outskirts of Toronto. The bottom line is that they just aren't a lucrative property. Maybe Bell buys them, just to preserve the value of their CFL television rights.

[Auzzy]

I think there was public evidence of the Exhibition Place board (an agency of the City) and specifically Mark Grimes wanting the Argos at BMO Field. For them, it's hoping to get more income in, and building their fiefdom -- plus Grimes is generally a big gridiron booster. Of course also the mayor at the time, his name has slipped my mind. Now Tory is mayor, former CFL commissioner, I'm sure he's also supporting it. There hasn't been any other decision since the election, so that remains the Exhibition's official position, who represent the city in this matter. Mark Grimes was re-elected as councillor, but I don't know if he's still running the Ex board.

I agree with Shakes that financially it's not a sure thing.

[greatwhitenorf]

UofT - (Varsity Stadium) - Temporary President of UofT cancelled plan due to nimby complaints.

York was cancelled because it seemed Ted Rogers and David Braley begged C&S to keep the Argos at the dome, there may have been other factors, but the way it's described it wasn't just a "free rent stay" They considered it, but untimely got bad advice from the now current Argo owner who many Argo Fans hate.

Both detailed here

http://www.thestar.com/sports/argos/..._says_cox.html

It's a little hard to take anything Cynamon and Sokolowski say seriously. Especially to Damien Cox, Hamilton boy,Ti-Cat fan and hardly soccer's best friend.

First of all, anything coming out of the collective mouth of C & S was put there by David Braley. He gave them half of the money - $1 mil of a feeble $2 million - to buy ownership of the Argos, at that time being run by the league after their second bankruptcy. Braley also underwrote half of the losses incurred annually during the C & S tenure. He has effectively been owner of the Argos since 2003, but the league was too embarrassed to admit this until they had no choice when C & S tossed what was left of their keys on the table.

Cox is an ardent Ti-Cats fan. The one thing the Ti-Cats need more than anything - well, other than a bank statement in anything but red ink - is a healthy rivalry with the Argos. That healthiness extends to the Argos financial state. If they flounder, the Ti-Cats suffer. So Cox is more than willing to lend his profile to the cause.

I can't stand Damien Cox. He's a poseur of the first order. He shows up on Sportsnet junior telecasts or on NHL draft spouting an alleged expertise about junior hockey players like he's watching them closely. What a joke. There's a running gag amongst junior hockey fans about Damien Cox sightings in OHL arenas. Of course, there all false alarms. The man never attends games in person unless it's the Memorial Cup where the studio is set up, yet he's propped up as an expert.

So when he takes dick-tation at the feet of David Braley's CFL sock puppets, it breeds nothing but cynicism and skepticism. It's all agenda driven drivel and none of it is good for MLS.

[greatwhitenorf]

Surely this is a done deal. There is no way the stadium modifications were done for #TFC - no way to justify this with the recent season's attendance problems.

The Leafs will play as many outdoor games as the NHL permits them to stage. And they will stage them annually because it's good for the industry.

They will make more money from the first outdoor event than they'll make from many seasons of Argos rentals. It won't just be one game. It will be a whole week of events and nostalgia tied into it. The Marlies and OHL and alumni will play preliminary games. The whole Ex grounds area will be turned into a giant hockey-themed carnival. There'll be merchandise out the ying-yang and money will flow like shit through a goose.

The Argos are just a troublesome, irritating footnote that dolts like Mark Grimes are trying to push onto MLSE's lap.

The city? All they really care about is facilitating the staging of good things that reflect well on Toronto and, above all, make money. Factor in the long-term ability of TFC and soccer events in general to make money and the only element in the stadium equation that isn't a dead-nuts lock to make money is the Argos. But they are capable of fucking up things on the soccer side.

They're aptly called The Boat Men and as boat owners well know, a boat is a hole in a lake you pour money into.

[king10]

The Leafs will play as many outdoor games as the NHL permits them to stage. And they will stage them annually because it's good for the industry.

They will make more money from the first outdoor event than they'll make from many seasons of Argos rentals. It won't just be one game. It will be a whole week of events and nostalgia tied into it. The Marlies and OHL and alumni will play preliminary games. The whole Ex grounds area will be turned into a giant hockey-themed carnival. There'll be merchandise out the ying-yang and money will flow like shit through a goose.

The Argos are just a troublesome, irritating footnote that dolts like Mark Grimes are trying to push onto MLSE's lap.

The city? All they really care about is facilitating the staging of good things that reflect well on Toronto and, above all, make money. Factor in the long-term ability of TFC and soccer events in general to make money and the only element in the stadium equation that isn't a dead-nuts lock to make money is the Argos. But they are capable of fucking up things on the soccer side.

They're aptly called The Boat Men and as boat owners well know, a boat is a hole in a lake you pour money into.

The 2017 outdoor game won't even be held at BMO....

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/to...n-2017-source/

The outdoor game involving the Leafs will apparently be held at Rogers Centre with the roof open and not at the outdoor BMO Field, the source said.

Also you say the city is concerned about facilitating and staging good things that reflect well on Toronto. A CFL (canada's only national league) franchise folding doesn't really reflect well on Toronto(Canada's largest city).

[TFC07]

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/to...n-2017-source/

The outdoor game involving the Leafs will apparently be held at Rogers Centre with the roof open and not at the outdoor BMO Field, the source said.

Problem with that line is that Rogers Centre's roof can't be open during winter time. However, I agree it will make more sense to host Leafs outdoor game at Rogers Centre while host AHL and old farts pickup hockey game at BMO field.

[king10]

Problem with that line is that Rogers Centre's roof can't be open during winter time. However, I agree it will make more sense to host Leafs outdoor game at Rogers Centre while host AHL and old farts pickup hockey game at BMO field.

It's not that the roof can't be opened. It's that they seal it shut for the winter. They can obviously remove the snow and ice and "unseal" it for this winter event. Of course for a cost, which can probably be recuperated from the outdoor event.

Roof literally only needs to be opened for 3 hours. Im sure Rogers being part owners of MLSE will see how much revenue this event could make and would put in the extra funds to open the roof.

EDIT: It says the roof can't be opened or closed if temperature fluctuate above and below 10 degrees celcius. But what if they were constantly below? Im not really sure.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseba...is_season.html

The dome is sealed through the winter, and the roof testing can’t begin until all snow and ice have melted. Given this year’s mild winter, testing was able to occur a little earlier than usual.
Temperatures below 10 C put the opening and closing of the roof at risk, said Stephen Brooks, Blue Jays Senior Vice-president, who added that the metal rails on which the roof moves expand and contract with the weather.
“At around 10 degrees, if we were to open the roof, and the temperature then dropped, we risk not being able to close it,” Brooks said, adding that the system shuts down if the roof gets out of alignment by a couple centimetres. “Because the stadium is without drainage, a roof that is shut down can be problematic if it were to rain.”

So really who knows whats going on in 2017 until its officially announced. Maybe that source has inside info. Or maybe it'll be a closed roof like in Vancouver.

[Brooker]

“There are some big hurdles to overcome and deal with,” he said without providing specifics. “But there’s never a hurdle that can’t be overcome.“It’s just a question of if you can get over it or not.”

Huh?

[ensco]

I think they could easily solve the Skydome roof issue with a million bucks - they could leave it open all winter, and use some sort of temporary bubble protection that can be removed for the game.

Could be a lot of burst pipes though if they get unlucky (remember when that happened at the BMO opener one year?)

[Phil]

I think they could easily solve the Skydome roof issue with a million bucks - they could leave it open all winter, and use some sort of temporary bubble protection that can be removed for the game.

Could be a lot of burst pipes though if they get unlucky (remember when that happened at the BMO opener one year?)

It would take more than a million....all the winter events that the skydome can host - car show, motocross, disney on ice shows, spring time fairs - all add up as moneymakers for them no?

[Areathrasher]

Surely if there was some way the dome could be open during winter, it would have been done already?

[TFC07]

The only way to get it done is rip off roof (which they might have to do anyway if they end up with grass) and winterized Rogers Centre (replacing current pipes etc that can handle the cold).

[Rudi]

Surely this is a done deal. There is no way the stadium modifications were done for #TFC - no way to justify this with the recent season's attendance problems.

Except the stadium still can't accommodate the Argos with the current modifications. It would need the final phase.

[Petor]

Except the stadium still can't accommodate the Argos with the current modifications. It would need the final phase.

Yup, so we are looking at 2017 at the earliest for the Argos unless the CFL agrees to let them play on a smaller field until phase 3 is done.
A lot can happen between now and then.

[ensco]

It would take more than a million....all the winter events that the skydome can host - car show, motocross, disney on ice shows, spring time fairs - all add up as moneymakers for them no?

It's Disney on Ice, 2-3 monster truck things ... and that's about it.

I have no idea what they make on those.

You can see it all here.

http://events.rogerscentre.com/

[Shakes McQueen]

Also you say the city is concerned about facilitating and staging good things that reflect well on Toronto. A CFL (canada's only national league) franchise folding doesn't really reflect well on Toronto(Canada's largest city).

They aren't going to save an economically failing football team in a second-tier football league, because of concerns about it "reflecting badly" on the city. That doesn't even make sense, because the team is a private entity, and playing in a half empty stadium already looks plenty bad.

And who would it reflect poorly towards? Other Torontonians? The same people currently not bothering to attend Argos games? Does the rest of the world care about our CFL team? You don't financially prop things up, simply because businesses failing might "look bad" to... someone.

I also have no warm fuzzies about the fact that the CFL is "Canada's only national league", or that the Argos are North America's oldest pro sports team. Both make interesting Trivial Pursuit questions, but not much else.

[Pookie]

It's possible that, privately, councilors are putting pressure on MLSE to accommodate the Argos - but there certainly hasn't been any public evidence of this. On the other hand, there was lots of talk from people Leiweke, about the various kinds of events they'd like to see at BMO Field.

I'd say there's still likely to be serious hurdles to the Argos coming to BMO - for starters, I wouldn't be shocked if they have to come up with the money for the renovations to the stands to accommodate the CFL field. Considering Braley (over-) values his entire team at around $10 million, there's no chance he puts up that cash. Which leaves the CFL itself. And "garnishing" lost revenues for teams who are still waiting for their new stadium to be finished (an example previously offered by someone), is not even close to the same as the CFL putting up money to get one of their teams a new home.

And if the money is put up as a loan of sorts to the Argos, that's only going to make buying the team that much less appealing. I'll go on the record as saying if they don't end up in BMO, the Argos probably end up playing in the outskirts of Toronto. The bottom line is that they just aren't a lucrative property. Maybe Bell buys them, just to preserve the value of their CFL television rights.

The $10M could come in a lot of ways.

A cheque is one. But instead of a cheque, they could offer a shiny new Grey Cup game that also generates approx $10m.

It isn't unheard of. In fact, the FIFA U20 to BMO probably mitigated a lot of the investment MLSE made at the beginning.

[Shakes McQueen]

The $10M could come in a lot of ways.

A cheque is one. But instead of a cheque, they could offer a shiny new Grey Cup game that also generates approx $10m.

It isn't unheard of. In fact, the FIFA U20 to BMO probably mitigated a lot of the investment MLSE made at the beginning.

Did the last Grey Cup in Toronto generate $10 million in profit for the Argos?

[Fort York Redcoat]

Did the last Grey Cup in Toronto generate $10 million in profit for the Argos?

When have those numbers ever been trustworthy, though? It's a he said/she said that sounds as accurate as reported attendance numbers.

[OgtheDim]

Teams view for those Grey Cups and are ticked that Braley has a deal with 3 more coming up in the next 10 years that he can use in either Vancouver or Toronto.

Its a money spinner.

[Fort York Redcoat]

The $10M could come in a lot of ways.

A cheque is one. But instead of a cheque, they could offer a shiny new Grey Cup game that also generates approx $10m.

It isn't unheard of. In fact, the FIFA U20 to BMO probably mitigated a lot of the investment MLSE made at the beginning.

Are we saying that the Grey Cup is such a rare prize that it would be a decider here with the BMO expansion situation?

As much respect that I have for the institution of the league Toronto has hosted Cups when it should've gone elsewhere and ignored the cups for years at a time. The only difference now would be one new venue for the event and the feel being more like Hamilton than Vancouver.

I'm sure people would find it fun, kitch, but it seems pretty funny to have the event minutes away from a place that doesn't need to be expanded to look ramshackle.

[Pookie]

Did the last Grey Cup in Toronto generate $10 million in profit for the Argos?

Actually... Yes

"Toronto Argos owner and Canadian senator David Braley earned as much as $10 million in profit as the host of the 100th Grey Cup."

http://m.thestar.com/#/article/sport...s_sources.html

[cdnorman]

Problem with that line is that Rogers Centre's roof can't be open during winter time. However, I agree it will make more sense to host Leafs outdoor game at Rogers Centre while host AHL and old farts pickup hockey game at BMO field.

I find it hard to believe they'd go through all the effort to put this at the dome. Part of the appeal of these outdoor games is the outdoor feel, no domed-in stadium will provide that.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Actually... Yes

"Toronto Argos owner and Canadian senator David Braley earned as much as $10 million in profit as the host of the 100th Grey Cup."

http://m.thestar.com/#/article/sport...s_sources.html

"two people familiar with the event told the Star."

Why wouldn't they name those people and their stations?? Not a conspiracy really, I'm just pointing out that one can find someone to say anything...

[TFC07]

Actually... Yes

"Toronto Argos owner and Canadian senator David Braley earned as much as $10 million in profit as the host of the 100th Grey Cup."

http://m.thestar.com/#/article/sport...s_sources.html

Don't forget that taxpayers give $10 million to CFL for 100th Grey Cup event.

[TFC07]

I find it hard to believe they'd go through all the effort to put this at the dome. Part of the appeal of these outdoor games is the outdoor feel, no domed-in stadium will provide that.

True, but MLSE is looking to make a huge profit which they can at bigger stadium like Rogers Centre than BMO field. Also, it isn't uncommon to host "outdoor" game in domed stadium (example: Vancouver hosting it at BC place)

[Fort York Redcoat]

True, but MLSE is looking to make a huge profit which they can at bigger stadium like Rogers Centre than BMO field. Also, it isn't uncommon to host "outdoor" game in domed stadium (example: Vancouver hosting it at BC place)

bit different, no? The Dome is either open or closed.

[greatwhitenorf]

The 2017 outdoor game won't even be held at BMO....

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/to...n-2017-source/

The outdoor game involving the Leafs will apparently be held at Rogers Centre with the roof open and not at the outdoor BMO Field, the source said.

Also you say the city is concerned about facilitating and staging good things that reflect well on Toronto. A CFL (canada's only national league) franchise folding doesn't really reflect well on Toronto(Canada's largest city).

The dome talk might be true. It might also be MLSE taking a fall-back position in case BMO Field expansion hits a glitch.

The folding of the Argonauts isn't a reflection on the city of Toronto. Certainly not the government of the city, which is what I alluded to in the post you quote.

The folding of the Argonauts would be a reflection of the withering interest in the CFL by the sports fans of Toronto and environs. It would also be a reflection on the league's lack of wit and vision that they keep declaring how important the market is yet have not come up with a way to house the Argos in a venue that makes Canadian football a priority in order to properly promote and cultivate the sport in such a vital location.

Two bankruptcies and David Braley's philanthropic involvement as de facto team owner since 2003 suggest that that reflection has been there for decades. CFL fans are either unable or unwilling to look at it.

[Beach_Red]

^ Maybe now that the NFL-to-Toronto talk has stopped we'll some actual planning by the CFL in Toronto.