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  1. #181
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    I'm an Argos fan, I would like to see them succeed. But it is very hard to sympathize with them when as noted their ownership in recent history, has always been looking for a handout.
    TFC, and its supporters have created a great game experience at BMO Field. It isn't fair to risk damaging that for some charity case of a franchise.
    If the Argos want us to be supportive, they should at least put some money forward. Not through the league, or through the government, but some actual money.
    It's sad that the Argos have not had solid ownership, but what does it say about a team when noone in the country with deep pockets wants to buy the franshise with a long history, and in the largest market?
    Heck, it appears that MLSE doesn't even want to own the club, and they want to have a monopoly on every franchise in this city.
    Argos at BMO seems to be a done deal. But we can still remind MLSE, and the Argos, whose house it actually is.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    A little historical perspective for those against hand outs and government funding.

    MLSE paid $10M for the franchise and contributed $8M to the stadium while receiving approx $70M in funding in corporate welfare.

    Absolutely no way MLSE invests that out of their own pocket with projections of 14k in their financials.

    Without a hand out, TFC doesn't exist.

    Value for the Argos is about the same.

    Stone throwers beware, this Home of TFC may be built of glass.
    People can still watch and enjoy TFC and still oppose the concept of corporate welfare for multi-billion dollar sports consortia, though. I know I would have much preferred it if MLSE just went ahead and constructed their own stadium according to their needs rather than asking for financial aid and tying themselves up to the conditions placed upon them by the city and province.

    Also, I would hesitate to say that without government cash there would be no TFC. MLSE could have possibly gone about the franchise bid themselves exclusively or some other group in the city could have invested in a franchise - don't know what the chances of either of those scenarios happening are, but it wouldn't be beyond the realm of possibility. Saputo was able to build his stadium initially without any significant government subsidy, though the Quebec government did throw in cash for the upgrades when the Impact moved up into MLS.
    Last edited by Cashcleaner; 02-24-2015 at 10:55 PM.
    Did the USA , of all countries, just fix soccer? - C. Ronaldo, May 27th commenting on the FBI-led investigations into fraud and corruption throughout FIFA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC07 View Post
    No not really since MLSE has kept on invested on BMO field (grass, north stands and now expansion with roof) while Argos never contribute one cent for Sky Dome and don't look like they're willing to invest in BMO field either.

    Argos' owner is having trouble selling Argos for $10 million! So no, they're not same level/value as TFC.
    If you cared to look, you'd find out that the Argos owners at the time did contribute to the construction of the Skydome.

    Always seem to forgotten is that $145m of the $570m cost of the skydome was privately financed.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulder View Post
    If you cared to look, you'd find out that the Argos owners at the time did contribute to the construction of the Skydome.

    Always seem to forgotten is that $145m of the $570m cost of the skydome was privately financed.
    Not quite - the investors got in and gained exclusive advertising rights. The 3 big beer companies at the time got in so they would have a chance to put in beer later. O'Keefe paid $5 million as a beer company, not as owners of the Argos. Labatts, as the owners of the Jays also put in $5 million more, so I can see why the Dome became baseball friendly and sold Labatts at first.

    In reality, the Dome was financed through strip mining future revenue streams. And the Argos put in the bare minimum.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulder View Post
    If you cared to look, you'd find out that the Argos owners at the time did contribute to the construction of the Skydome.

    Always seem to forgotten is that $145m of the $570m cost of the skydome was privately financed.
    It was supposed to cost $120 million.....

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    Value for the Argos is about the same.
    Talk about reaching...

    Pook, you are really out there with this one but let me help

    If one takes into account the attractive tv market of the Argos over ours and ignores the value of actually buying the franchise then, yes, in that world of give and take, in someones eyes, the value is comparable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Not quite - the investors got in and gained exclusive advertising rights. The 3 big beer companies at the time got in so they would have a chance to put in beer later. O'Keefe paid $5 million as a beer company, not as owners of the Argos. Labatts, as the owners of the Jays also put in $5 million more, so I can see why the Dome became baseball friendly and sold Labatts at first.

    In reality, the Dome was financed through strip mining future revenue streams. And the Argos put in the bare minimum.
    Yet O'Keefe used the Argos not playing there as leverage to get in on those advertising rights after they were originally excluded. Owner investment is owner investment no matter how you try and spin it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulder View Post
    Yet O'Keefe used the Argos not playing there as leverage to get in on those advertising rights after they were originally excluded. Owner investment is owner investment no matter how you try and spin it.
    How "one" spins it. Og said there was investment. Another user was stating there was none. Just saying.

    While you're here can you remind us how the partnership(s) with the 2 Toronto Uni's fell through again? I'd appreciate to have the info in here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fort York Redcoat View Post
    How "one" spins it. Og said there was investment. Another user was stating there was none. Just saying.

    While you're here can you remind us how the partnership(s) with the 2 Toronto Uni's fell through again? I'd appreciate to have the info in here.
    UofT - (Varsity Stadium) - Temporary President of UofT cancelled plan due to nimby complaints.

    York was cancelled because it seemed Ted Rogers and David Braley begged C&S to keep the Argos at the dome, there may have been other factors, but the way it's described it wasn't just a "free rent stay" They considered it, but untimely got bad advice from the now current Argo owner who many Argo Fans hate.

    Both detailed here

    http://www.thestar.com/sports/argos/..._says_cox.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulder View Post
    UofT - (Varsity Stadium) - Temporary President of UofT cancelled plan due to nimby complaints.

    York was cancelled because it seemed Ted Rogers and David Braley begged C&S to keep the Argos at the dome, there may have been other factors, but the way it's described it wasn't just a "free rent stay" They considered it, but untimely got bad advice from the now current Argo owner who many Argo Fans hate.

    Both detailed here

    http://www.thestar.com/sports/argos/..._says_cox.html

    Cheers. That clarifies things greatly.

    Is Braley still ok with owning the Lions or does he want out of both B.C. and Toronto ownership?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fort York Redcoat View Post
    Cheers. That clarifies things greatly.

    Is Braley still ok with owning the Lions or does he want out of both B.C. and Toronto ownership?
    Said he wants to sell them by the time he's 75. He turns 74 this May.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulder View Post
    Said he wants to sell them by the time he's 75. He turns 74 this May.
    Thanks again.
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    John Tory on cp24 tonight. You can tweet questions to #askthemayorcp24

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    Just a thought. Are there any ideas of doing an online petition for those that are whole-heartedly against this? Do you think that might be a good idea?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaLFC View Post
    Just a thought. Are there any ideas of doing an online petition for those that are whole-heartedly against this? Do you think that might be a good idea?
    I don't know who is running this but it does reference a rednation online article. Could be one of those boys.

    http://www.noargosatbmo.ca/content/keep-the-argos-out/
    Last edited by Fort York Redcoat; 02-25-2015 at 09:22 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fort York Redcoat View Post
    I don't know who is running this but it does reference a rednation online article. Could be one of those boys.

    http://www.noargosatbmo.ca/content/keep-the-argos-out/
    Whoa... a whopping 105 signatures!

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    I really hope they find somewhere else.
    MLSE does all this work for TFC and BMO Field, the Argos just can't barge in here.

  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark TFC View Post
    Whoa... a whopping 105 signatures!
    Well talk will be getting more frequent about it and I shared this one since it was already started. So be it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark TFC View Post
    Whoa... a whopping 105 signatures!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fort York Redcoat View Post
    Well talk will be getting more frequent about it and I shared this one since it was already started. So be it.
    Make that 106!!!!!!!!!!!! Shared it on FB, too.

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    Guys, petition and sending emails to John Tory and co is useless (they don't have anymore money to invest into BMO field).

    If you want to voice your opinion, then email MLSE since they're ones who have money to make it happen especially since Argos/CFL isn't willing to pay $10 million (or $20 million if provincial government doesn't pitch in).

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeRo Fan #1 View Post
    I really hope they find somewhere else.
    MLSE does all this work for TFC and BMO Field, the Argos just can't barge in here.
    MLSE exactly isn't innocent on this issue either. They're ones who bought up this issue with their upgrades! If I was in their shoes, I would sit back and let City pay for expenses and upgrades needed to fix BMO field (it already needed an upgrade before MLSE decided to expand to 30K since it has some maintenance issues due to BMO field being built cheaply. It would have cost city around $10-15 million to make necessary upgrades to keep BMO field running).

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC07 View Post
    MLSE exactly isn't innocent on this issue either. They're ones who bought up this issue with their upgrades! If I was in their shoes, I would sit back and let City pay for expenses and upgrades needed to fix BMO field (it already needed an upgrade before MLSE decided to expand to 30K since it has some maintenance issues due to BMO field being built cheaply. It would have cost city around $10-15 million to make necessary upgrades to keep BMO field running).
    MLSE are opportunists, they have no love for any particular sport. Right now MLS is the best investment but who knows, that could change. They're never going to rule out anything completely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beach_Red View Post
    MLSE are opportunists, they have no love for any particular sport. Right now MLS is the best investment but who knows, that could change. They're never going to rule out anything completely.
    Exactly.

    MLSE could easily stop this Argo move if they wanted to (they sort of have in the past with north stand and amount of concrete they used on it which it make it hard and expensive to knock down north stand to make room for CFL field).

    MLSE already made their ROI from TFC (they only paid $10 million to get into MLS and now TFC is worth north of $100 million).

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC07 View Post
    Exactly.

    MLSE could easily stop this Argo move if they wanted to (they sort of have in the past with north stand and amount of concrete they used on it which it make it hard and expensive to knock down north stand to make room for CFL field).

    MLSE already made their ROI from TFC (they only paid $10 million to get into MLS and now TFC is worth north of $100 million).
    Just to clarify, nothing must be done in the north. It can remain as is but the south can come down and those retractable seats put in. I can only put my faith in the board room pissing match preventing this from happening.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC07 View Post
    MLSE exactly isn't innocent on this issue either. They're ones who bought up this issue with their upgrades! If I was in their shoes, I would sit back and let City pay for expenses and upgrades needed to fix BMO field (it already needed an upgrade before MLSE decided to expand to 30K since it has some maintenance issues due to BMO field being built cheaply. It would have cost city around $10-15 million to make necessary upgrades to keep BMO field running).
    Exactly. I've never believed the line that guys like Paul Beirne loved to spin about how they'd love nothing more than to keep BMO Field soccer-specific. If the company can find more tenants that will allow them to squeeze more capital out of their investment, they're not very likely to say no. It's all about maximizing the revenue they could get from the facility. Argos to BMO Field makes quite a bit of financial sense to almost all parties involved except TFC and it's fans specifically.
    Did the USA , of all countries, just fix soccer? - C. Ronaldo, May 27th commenting on the FBI-led investigations into fraud and corruption throughout FIFA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cashcleaner View Post
    Exactly. I've never believed the line that guys like Paul Beirne loved to spin about how they'd love nothing more than to keep BMO Field soccer-specific. If the company can find more tenants that will allow them to squeeze more capital out of their investment, they're not very likely to say no. It's all about maximizing the revenue they could get from the facility. Argos to BMO Field makes quite a bit of financial sense to almost all parties involved except TFC and it's fans specifically.
    I think ultimately if the City wants this done, then MLSE can't do too much about it. However, I've seen little evidence that the City is leaning THAT hard on them, and plenty of evidence that MLSE/Leiweke WANT the Argos to come to BMO, because they're convinced they can have their good playing surface cake, and eat it too. They want BMO Field to become a hub for all kinds of sports and events, because obviously it makes them more money.

    Of course, it has also been made abundantly clear to Leiweke that the fans don't want this move, and it's clear that he's gotten that message, because he's commented about the sentiment publicly. At this point, what can you do? You either walk away from the team (which I think would be incredibly premature, to say the least), or b) make noise so they do everything possible to try and preserve the soccer experience for the fans and team alike, and remain cautiously hopeful that they will take that to heart.

    My hope is that these talks fall through because no one wants to put up the money necessary to do the retrofitting for the Argos, and they go somewhere else.
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

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    Surely this is a done deal. There is no way the stadium modifications were done for #TFC - no way to justify this with the recent season's attendance problems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamilton_Red View Post
    Surely this is a done deal. There is no way the stadium modifications were done for #TFC - no way to justify this with the recent season's attendance problems.
    By the same token you could say there's no justification for potentially further alienating your fanbase - especially when it's to accommodate a team you don't even own.
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakes McQueen View Post
    By the same token you could say there's no justification for potentially further alienating your fanbase - especially when it's to accommodate a team you don't even own.
    That's question, isn't it. Would the revenue from Argos games be enough to make up what might be lost in TFC revenues?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beach_Red View Post
    That's question, isn't it. Would the revenue from Argos games be enough to make up what might be lost in TFC revenues?
    MLS soccer has a billion times the growth potential, even if MLSE decided in a year or two to buy the Argos outright. If they look at TFC as a long-term investment, and it's an either/or proposition, then I don't see any way the revenue from the Argos remotely makes up for it.

    Who knows what MLS franchise values could conceivably be in 20 years.
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

 

 

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