Spurs is talking about it but I think they won't actually do it. Everybody talks about Arizona, but they get a heck of a lot of sun to allow the grass to grow properly, and have the land. Spurs ain't gonna grow decent grass under ultra violet lights under the ground.
I thought the Argos model was to operate rent free at other team's stadiums and lose money doing it.Originally Posted by Red CB Toronto
While we'll never see it, the lease agreement will say a lot about how MLSE views TFC.
It's one thing to aknowledge that there were a lot of politics at play, and a compromise solution had to be made for the Argos problem.
It's another to tell your fans that you care about their interest, and loyalty, and then roll out the red carpet for a sad-sack franchise that could potentially have a very negative impact on your club and gameday experience.
How old do you think he's going to get?!?Anyway, if they didn't do it for the Bills sale there'll never be as good a deal again.
Moderator
Politics? Not so much. Like CB said, it's all about the money. MLSE and the City both stand to squeeze a bit more revenue out of the facility they jointly own and operate. And it satisfies the needs of the Argos to find a home with a competitive lease that the fans can approve of.
It's just a real shame that it's TFC and it's fans who are the only ones losing out on this deal - and we're the ones who've been there since Day 1.
Last edited by Cashcleaner; 04-28-2015 at 07:01 PM.
Did the USA , of all countries, just fix soccer? - C. Ronaldo, May 27th commenting on the FBI-led investigations into fraud and corruption throughout FIFA.
I think it's been extremely political, from Tory down to Grimes, who appears to be very hands on based on what was going out on twitter today.
When someone says they'll force Rogers from the negotiating table regarding the lease terms (with respect to MLSE's role in the operation of BMO Field), it's political.
The reality is that as it appears the initial agreement between Rogers and Bell to vote as block at the board level has gone out the window. If this is reality which I believe it is, the votes are there for Bell and Larry to do an Argo deal even with Rogers kicking and screaming.
Remember The Man, The Legend, The Goal 5-12-07 and All That #9 Left On The Pitch, Thanks For The Memories !!!
Moderator
How is it political? The vast majority of Torontonians don't care all that much about this issue. The number of TFC fans and Argo fans compared to the city at large is a drop in the bucket. To you and I this is important, but the level of general interest outside on the street just isn't there. This is not an issue that is going to effect anyone's re-election chances in three years time. I'm sorry, but a lot of this talk is descending into silliness. We got people talking about conflicts of interest (there aren't any) and trying to put some sort of shady backroom dealing spin on it (despite so much already being on public record) all to try to convince themselves and others that there is no legitimacy to the inevitable reality.
We have a number of politicians and city authorities who have been incredibly up-front for years now about wanting to put the Argos in BMO Field. The Argonauts and their ownership have done the same for obvious reasons. The only group that hasn't been as forthcoming has been MLSE, and I can't even fault the logic for them to do so. They needed the TFC fanbase to grow and stabilize before injecting a new variable into the mixture that is BMO Field.
Last edited by Cashcleaner; 04-28-2015 at 08:37 PM.
Did the USA , of all countries, just fix soccer? - C. Ronaldo, May 27th commenting on the FBI-led investigations into fraud and corruption throughout FIFA.
agreed
When all is said and done, I am willing to give ground sharing a chance based on the reassurances offered by Leiweke & Co. regarding the preservation of the game day experience for TFC supporters. If there are remnants of lines on the pitch and the surface is compromised, I will seriously consider giving up the seasons tickets that I have had since day one.
I don't think they needed that at all. If they did, they wouldn't be doing this. This is hardly a fanbase that has grown and stabilized.
The industrial logic for everything that is going on right now at BMO has very little to do with TFC.
Last edited by ensco; 04-28-2015 at 09:47 PM.
What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.
Lots of thoughtful stuff on here, but it comes down to a simple thing for me: this stadium was purpose built for soccer because they were not any others in Canada. That's why it's the National soccer stadium.
the Argos, at their request, had a stadium purpose built for them, called the SkyDome. it cost the public over ten times what NSS (BMO) cost.
They have no moral right to come into BMO and risk vastly lessening the soccer experience and most importantly, the potential to recruit first class players.
it isn't common sense at all.
Moderator
Perhaps. Maybe they've been doing this for eight years and figured things weren't going to drastically improve so now they're going ahead regardless. I think the intent to do that was certainly there, at least.
Common sense and morality are more often than not completely antithetical to each other, not similar.
The common sense remarks are from the point-of-view of the Argonauts, the City, and MLSE for the reasons already stated. Ground-sharing negatively affects TFC for sure, but because it generates revenue for every other party, it makes absolute sense for them. And morality means nothing when a dollar is to be made.
I completely agree that TFC and all us fans and supporters are getting the short end of the stick here. No amount of spin is going to negate this. BMO Field is no longer going to be a soccer stadium (let alone the National Soccer Stadium). It's going to be a mixed-use venue with two very different tenants. But again, for all the other parties involved except us, this is exactly what they have been wanting for some time now and despite what you or I feel about it - it does make financial sense for them.
Like you said, the Argos first wanted a domed stadium built and they got it. Then they wanted to build a stadium up at York University. But they pulled out and went back to Skydome. Now that's not good enough for them anymore and they want BMO Field.
Last edited by Cashcleaner; 04-28-2015 at 10:11 PM.
Did the USA , of all countries, just fix soccer? - C. Ronaldo, May 27th commenting on the FBI-led investigations into fraud and corruption throughout FIFA.
We have every good reason to be worried about this stadium share descending into a complete shitshow.
The CFL has a dreadful track record when it comes to stadium projects. Look at Hamilton - complete fiasco getting the stadium built on time. Is it even finished yet? Legal issues mounting as sub-contractors are pursuing money they haven't been paid.
Ottawa's gussied-up old stadium looks fine in some areas but underneath the main stand sits a hockey arena in such poor physical shape that parts of it have been condemned. Fans have stayed away in droves from junior hockey games. In a city where the CFL has gone bankrupt twice, news emerges that season ticket sales have declined by thousands after the first season.
Winnipeg spent something like $200 million to give the Blue Bombers a new home. The Bombers had their hands all over the project and the two-year old stadium is already beginning to come apart and leak. Cracked concrete, stressed steel and leaking sewage among the problems. Another looming fiasco heading for the courts.
Montreal spent $25 million on helping expand the Alouettes stadium just so they could graduate to a level of acceptable financial losses. People keep saying how successful they are, yet a soccer team across town built their own stadium.
And now we've got BMO Field being used as a financial and political piņata to satisfy certain political egos and let Larry Tanenbaum have licence to pour concrete at stadium projects. Which will one day, no doubt, include a NFL-sized stadium once he gets the Argos tucked in.
Here's the latest on the Winnipeg situation:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manito...tion-1.3047527
Last edited by greatwhitenorf; 04-28-2015 at 10:32 PM.
double post.
Last edited by greatwhitenorf; 04-28-2015 at 10:32 PM.
^^^^^^
http://www.chch.com/new-tim-hortons-field-concerns/
You call out the CFL clubs themselves as if it is their fault and responsibility of the new stadium woes... The above link makes no mention of the Tiger Cats, but does the city, as it is in fact a city owned facility... Like the Argo's will be at BMO, the Tiger Cats are tenants of the multi-purpose stadium.
Same goes for the Winnepeg stadium... It is government owned, and in fact built at the University of Manitoba... Again, no wrong doings from the CFL club
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manito...-now-1.2989084
I am not sure what the issue is at Lansdowne, TD Place Stadium... The arena, also known as the Civic Center, was undergoing renovations at the same time as the football stadium... The reason why attendance has been down is due to the playing out of Kanata...
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa_Civic_Centre
Again, I'm not sure where you get the information that the ALS are losing money? Just 2 seasons ago, prior to the lucrative tv contract, the Commissioner stated 6 of 8 teams either made or broke even, with the 2 southern Ontario teams the losers... I posted a link for you a few pages back.
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/football/cf...oner-1.1201438
There is is no way the relationship between the TFC and Argo's can't flourish... Look on a positive note, the new stadium, with the Argo's playing in it, will attract new/different fans to the stadium, which will expose them to the soccer and TFC
LOLOLOLOLOL
It's unbelievable that Rogers was able to buy a publicly-financed stadium for pennies on the dollar -- a stadium that was also built for the Argos -- and that there was apparently nothing written into the sale agreement that they need to take care of the Argos in the future. Either at the dome -- or help them find a home elsewhere. As someone else noted, although they own the Rogers Centre now, they don't actually own the land, another reason it should have been possible to place conditions on the sale.
People keep referring to the original BMO agreement. That was predicated on the FIFA U20; the occasional national game; and TFC with about 14k attendance, on plastic turf. Lots has changed since then: TFC is much more successful than expected, Argos (& even the Blue Jays) are less successful than hoped. MLSE has invested lots more into BMO in the meantime: natural grass; other compensation for reduced public use; North Stand; etc. And the City has also done quite well as a result of the unexpected success of TFC. Too bad that MLSE, the City, and everyone else involved can't come up with a better plan for the Argos that doesn't screw up things for TFC.
Why we still got Argo/CFL fanboys posting on this forum? Maybe TFC fans should invade their forums and hijack it with TFC talk. We got plenty of material to discuss about TFC
So the excerpt from the BMO field agreement above mentions some things wrt. the Argos: alterations should not adversely affect its use as a soccer stadium; MLSE has favoured status over the Argos wrt. rental terms etc (but there's a "Dispute Resolution Procedure"); no naming rights or related revenue for the Argos.
Sounds messy. Plus the broadcasters run the show wrt game scheduling. Even for TFC on its own, we often get shitty scheduling so that the networks can squeeze in TFC wherever they want. CFL has better viewership, so that will be the broadcasters' priority. Guaranteed TFC scheduling gets even worse, to fit the Argos in as the broadcasters please.
And this whole things seems to be poisoning the Rogers/Tanenbaum/Bell relationship even further. Will the board be able to agree on other stuff that TFC might need in the future? Expensive new coach or management? Replacing the Desso every 1-2 years? It's gonna get even messier thanks to the Argos.
I agree 100%.Why we still got Argo/CFL fanboys posting on this forum? Maybe TFC fans should invade their forums and hijack it with TFC talk. We got plenty of material to discuss about TFC
How ignorant.... I know you don't represent the entire fanbase, but jeez....I am a fan of both MLS & CFL (along with NHL, NFL and MLB-come playoffs).... Why is that so hard to comprehend? Why is it so hard to believe that some fans out there are actually exited to see a marvelous stadium host more than 1 Toronto franchise? I've been to Van and seen both the Lions and Whitecaps, te game day experience for both was enjoyable. I am expecting the same to be said about the TFC and Argos, and until I experience otherwise, I'm not going to whine and complain!Why we still got Argo/CFL fanboys posting on this forum? Maybe TFC fans should invade their forums and hijack it with TFC talk. We got plenty of material to discuss about TFC
In my post above, I merely pointed to the facts with respect to who owns those respective CFL stadiums, in which those teams should not be to blame for the stadium woes.
But come on, please, stop being so damn hostile to those who enjoy more than just TFC. I'll repeat it again , that having another tenant in the stadium will probably attract some of the fans of that tenant towards TFC/MLS. The stadium will spark an interest for some, enough that would want to make them come out to enjoy a TFC game.
I'm a TFC supporter and a Ti-Cat fan, so I'm not blinded to one or the other.
In every other setting, gridiron is the priority and soccer second. Which leads to turf that fits gridiron and lines on the pitch. Which leads to issues getting quality players, money spinning international friendlies and a general downtrend in game quality.
In the case of BMO, we have MLSE indicating they want to keep BMO as a soccer specific stadium first. That might work, but this is always dependent upon the dynamic of MLSE ownership - Bell wants the Argos because of their investment in TFC, Rogers doesn't. And we have no clue if Desso grass can work as a soccer first pitch and hold up to a season of CFL usage as well.
We also have the current owner of the Argos wanting some sort of memorial to his largesse. He seems to want a stand named after him. If it was a plaque, we could ignore it. But if they call the South Stand, the Braley stand, imagine the disgust.
And THAT's the sort of boneheaded not listening to TFC supporters thinking that is going on out there.
So you'll have to forgive the enmity. Argo supporters have by and large been less then sympathetic. They simply do not understand the issue of the turf.
Last edited by OgtheDim; 04-29-2015 at 07:35 AM.
Case in point: the surface in Vancouver is absolutely awful for soccer, and the strips covering the top part of the stands during soccer games are pretty ridiculous. The Whitecaps don't want to be there; they were basically forced to play at BC Place so that the reno done for the Olympic Games doesn't look like like such a waste of money. To enforce this, the Whitecaps were prevented from getting the land that they need to build their own stadium. As soon as they can, they will be out of their. But they generally seem to be smarter about building a soccer club than MLSE is.
knock yourself out - http://forums.cfl.ca/Why we still got Argo/CFL fanboys posting on this forum? Maybe TFC fans should invade their forums and hijack it with TFC talk. We got plenty of material to discuss about TFC
This is a very good analysis of the situation. The worst part of all this is pitting TFC and Argo supporters against one another. Well, maybe even worse is that fact that Bell and Rogers don't care about that at all (we're just customers after all, and we've all experienced their customer service).
Not ignorant but rude. The emoji helps but really its an opportunity to cure actual ignorance.Why we still got Argo/CFL fanboys posting on this forum? Maybe TFC fans should invade their forums and hijack it with TFC talk. We got plenty of material to discuss about TFC
As hinted above your experience of shared stadium enjoyment is exactly what we'd like to get past. I'm glad you enjoy all the sports but as you can see our concerns are not without reason. We'd love to watch games with more people that understand or appreciate the quality of what they are watching (Insert struggling performance joke here).
Your phrasing alone is indicative of what I fear is the majority of sports fans in this area. That we footy supporters should appreciate the attention and possible conversion of gridiron fans.
Not at the expense of the quality of the surface they actually play the game on.
This concentration on what a beautiful stadium it will be is an unnecessary distraction from the action on the pitch. It makes so little sense to me that a pretty stadium will coerce anyone to watch something they wouldn't normally on a weekly basis but all are welcome. Just know that we're going to talk about what the pretty stadium cost to the quality of the game.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
Why we still got Argo/CFL fanboys posting on this forum? Maybe TFC fans should invade their forums and hijack it with TFC talk. We got plenty of material to discuss about TFCMaybe save yourself from annoying yourself. If anyone is here trying to understand where we are coming from its a damn sight better opportunity than trolling a board you only want to convert, or preach to.
Your choice but just saying bud.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
I am going to simple put it, all my attention when it comes to TFC is on the 11 man that take the pitch each week, not a stadium reno, jersey sponsorship, ground share, concession menu etc, they are the ones deserving of our discussion. 166 men have suited up for the Reds since 2007 each and every single one of them will get my attention long before anything else off the field. Looking forward from support them from the stands over the next week in Philly, Montreal and finally at home, where we will all be.
Remember The Man, The Legend, The Goal 5-12-07 and All That #9 Left On The Pitch, Thanks For The Memories !!!
I recognize and respect your commitment to the team, CB.
I am only stressing that AFTER the players, what's most important is the pitch you watch them run round on. The rest is noise.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
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