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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by king10 View Post
    I know it has a different use. Of course no cfl football is played in denmark. I just mean the endzone stands would retract like that to allow room for cfl endzones.
    I was clarifying, not correcting you.

    Quote Originally Posted by kshep View Post
    If TFC goes back to turf, you might find the supporters sections all but abandoned. Not sure if people are really willing to take those steps backwards, especially since it would result in be a direct lie from management in regards to TFC being the primary importance for the grounds, ie, no full artifical surface.

    Converting the national soccer stadium, and ruining a great thing for a team that back out when they had the chance before is beyond stupid. And could result in the death of TFC in the long term if things like the pitch become an issue. Because once the conversions done, the argos are never leaving. TFC would either have to leave and build a new stadium or suffer never being able to sign any quality players again.

    Of course CFL fans want this, they want the argos to be relevant. The bigger question is will the argos fair weather fans actually support them at bmo, the same site they abandoned because they were fair weather fans in the first place, I have my doubts. They didn't want to play at the ex before, can't see why they will want to go and support it at BMO this time around.
    To be fair, there would be a short term boost in Argos attendance regardless results. We know that as a Toronto things. Something old somewhere new is enough of an excuse.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fort York Redcoat View Post


    Last time the Argos talked with York it fell through. I don't know if it was about the money they didn't have or the track issue again. Beggars can be choosers in this case.
    Not sure if I agree that beggars can be choosers, It's farcical that the Argos to bmo is even being considered, since they have back out of at least two stadiums deals if not a third.

    As I've stated before, worst case scenario is the pitch becomes terrible and in a crucial play-off or champions League match a back pass to the keeper bobbles and bounces on a shitty Argo chewed up pitch skips the keepers foot and rolls in the net, eliminating TFC from a competition. What if something like that cost us a supporters shield, or an MLS cup.

    I for one would absolutely lose my shit if this was to occur. Seems like an unlikely scenario but that the way I tend to think about the Argos being at bmo, for me as a supporter it has to be all about worse case scenerios because I love our club and can't stand the thought of being done in by a second rate CFL team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by king10 View Post
    Then i think the problems would be larger than just the argos at bmo. The problem would be we need new owners. MLSE isnt dumb though, dont think it would ever come to that.
    I think you meant to say, the problems would be larger due to the argos at bmo.

    Regarding the scheduling, and TFC having priority as per lease agreement: that's priority at the time of scheduling. They don't know the possible CONCACAF scheduling (or how far TFC might make it in that tournament); nor the MLS or CFL playoff schedules when the MLS & CFL schedules are set before the season starts. There are also many other restrictions, due to TV schedules, various other schedules for the different soccer teams involved, etc. They could easily end up with a footy game in BMO field 2 or 3 days after a CFL game. Or worse, maybe on the same weekend.

    Will TFC then be allowed to bump the Argos out of a previously-approved slot in the schedule? I don't think so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by king10 View Post
    Then i think the problems would be larger than just the argos at bmo. The problem would be we need new owners. MLSE isnt dumb though, dont think it would ever come to that.
    To what? Because they've done a myriad of things that their fans thought dumb.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC07 View Post
    Problem is that you not factoring in other events (international soccer) that they're trying to attract. Going to fake turf will be kiss of death for BMO field. They will lose a lot of potential revenue that doesn't include TFC (who before signing big on DP's were making money for MLSE and City of Toronto). Point is: if soccer gets hurt from fake turf, then BMO field no longer will become money making venue for MLSE and City of Toronto. Given how much money MLSE is currently invest into BMO field, I highly doubt they will mess it up by going back to fake turf.
    Well then maybe they'll stick with a crappy hybrid surface, and spray lots of green paint all over it. Looks good for the first 10 minutes of the game or so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auzzy View Post
    I think you meant to say, the problems would be larger due to the argos at bmo.

    Regarding the scheduling, and TFC having priority as per lease agreement: that's priority at the time of scheduling. They don't know the possible CONCACAF scheduling (or how far TFC might make it in that tournament); nor the MLS or CFL playoff schedules when the MLS & CFL schedules are set before the season starts. There are also many other restrictions, due to TV schedules, various other schedules for the different soccer teams involved, etc. They could easily end up with a footy game in BMO field 2 or 3 days after a CFL game. Or worse, maybe on the same weekend.

    Will TFC then be allowed to bump the Argos out of a previously-approved slot in the schedule? I don't think so.
    Even if I HAD faith that TFC couldn't get bumped my priority would be the National sides as well. I doubt that's been talked about much in what order of priority it is but let me tell you how nauseous I'd become learning my future road trip to Montreal is because Saputo respects our game more than my hometown.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fort York Redcoat View Post
    Even if I HAD faith that TFC couldn't get bumped my priority would be the National sides as well. I doubt that's been talked about much in what order of priority it is but let me tell you how nauseous I'd become learning my future road trip to Montreal is because Saputo respects our game more than my hometown.
    Yes very good point, hadn't thought of that at the moment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fort York Redcoat View Post
    To what? Because they've done a myriad of things that their fans thought dumb.

    Installing turf. It would remove too many revenue streams like rugby. National soccer games. Friendlies. Being able to sign dps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auzzy View Post
    I think you meant to say, the problems would be larger due to the argos at bmo.

    Regarding the scheduling, and TFC having priority as per lease agreement: that's priority at the time of scheduling. They don't know the possible CONCACAF scheduling (or how far TFC might make it in that tournament); nor the MLS or CFL playoff schedules when the MLS & CFL schedules are set before the season starts. There are also many other restrictions, due to TV schedules, various other schedules for the different soccer teams involved, etc. They could easily end up with a footy game in BMO field 2 or 3 days after a CFL game. Or worse, maybe on the same weekend.

    Will TFC then be allowed to bump the Argos out of a previously-approved slot in the schedule? I don't think so.

    Well the jays are allowed to bump the argos from a pre approved time slot if they made the playoffs. Dont see why tfc wouldnt be able to either if its written into the contract. Argos are beggars. They cant be choosers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yohan View Post
    One of reasons I hear from Argos fans is that the 'intimate' atmosphere of BMO Field is going to boost attendance like what happened to Alouettes. Argos is averaging 15-18k right now? BMO Field is going to be 30k. Just how many people believe Argos are going to get a boost of 12-15k to sell out BMO Field?

    And just how 'welcoming' will Argos games feel playing at a stadium covered in red instead of Argos blue. The little things like presentation is part of game day experience. If I was an Argos fan, I'd still feel like an outsider at BMO Field. (unless Argos plan on rebranding to a red colour)
    I've read Argo fans who think BMO will be painted blue for them, based on TV numbers.

    As for the attendance #'s, the Argos have been papering for years - BMO won't change that. But, TSN and CFL apologists in the media will go on and on about how great the atmosphere is no matter how many actually show up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by king10 View Post
    Installing turf. It would remove too many revenue streams like rugby. National soccer games. Friendlies. Being able to sign dps.
    ^ That's why New England, Seattle, and Portland never sign DPs; or host national games or friendlies.

    And thinking of the viewership, I highly doubt that TSN/Bell would allow an Argos game to be bumped for a CONCACAF game.

    Plus FYR mentioned the national team games. Those are sometimes booked on fairly short notice, especially friendlies. Of course they will go to Montreal if the Argos are already booked at BMO on that day or a few days before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    I've read Argo fans who think BMO will be painted blue for them, based on TV numbers.

    As for the attendance #'s, the Argos have been papering for years - BMO won't change that. But, TSN and CFL apologists in the media will go on and on about how great the atmosphere is no matter how many actually show up.
    ive heard ppl say tfc is papering as well. Especially those late season games.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auzzy View Post
    ^ That's why New England, Seattle, and Portland never sign DPs; or host national games or friendlies.

    And thinking of the viewership, I highly doubt that TSN/Bell would allow an Argos game to be bumped for a CONCACAF game.

    Plus FYR mentioned the national team games. Those are sometimes booked on fairly short notice, especially friendlies. Of course they will go to Montreal if the Argos are already booked at BMO on that day or a few days before.
    the fifa intl calendar is known a year in advance. The csa can easily reserve time slots well in advance to ensure the argos dont schedule there.

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    "The CSA" and "easily" in the same sentence, hmmm....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auzzy View Post
    "The CSA" and "easily" in the same sentence, hmmm....
    I have faith with the new directors. Especially victor montagliani, he seems to be taking the csa in the right direction. Passed leaders didnt share his vision.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fort York Redcoat View Post
    Even if I HAD faith that TFC couldn't get bumped my priority would be the National sides as well. I doubt that's been talked about much in what order of priority it is but let me tell you how nauseous I'd become learning my future road trip to Montreal is because Saputo respects our game more than my hometown.
    Yup. MLSE will never be right owners when comes to soccer.

    They obviously have no clue what they're doing and we're seeing results of that on-field since day one. If wasn't for strong local support for soccer in this market, then TFC would have folded already like Chivas USA.

    I personally believe that winning TFC team will explore in this market and truly make BMO field the place to be in summer time (sorry Blue Jay fans, but baseball is boring sport with no atmosphere whatsoever).

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    Quote Originally Posted by king10 View Post
    the fifa intl calendar is known a year in advance. The csa can easily reserve time slots well in advance to ensure the argos dont schedule there.
    Can they? They have the ability to, surely. But we're talking about something with no precedent. Do you know for certain of the National teams have priority?
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC07 View Post
    Yup. MLSE will never be right owners when comes to soccer.

    They obviously have no clue what they're doing and we're seeing results of that on-field since day one. If wasn't for strong local support for soccer in this market, then TFC would have folded already like Chivas USA.

    I personally believe that winning TFC team will explore in this market and truly make BMO field the place to be in summer time (sorry Blue Jay fans, but baseball is boring sport with no atmosphere whatsoever).

    Your last statement is a matter of opinion. I know lots of ppl who enjoy a summer ball game. People have different tastes. Nothing wrong with that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fort York Redcoat View Post
    Can they? They have the ability to, surely. But we're talking about something with no precedent. Do you know for certain of the National teams have priority?
    Not at a computer at the moment. When i get to one ill try to dig up the lease agreement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by king10 View Post
    ive heard ppl say tfc is papering as well. Especially those late season games.
    TFC went to counting tickets sold vs. scanned at the gate. That is why the number seems inflated compared to bums in seats. This happened 3 or 4 years ago now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by king10 View Post
    Installing turf. It would remove too many revenue streams like rugby. National soccer games. Friendlies. Being able to sign dps.
    Quote Originally Posted by Auzzy View Post
    ^ That's why New England, Seattle, and Portland never sign DPs; or host national games or friendlies.

    And thinking of the viewership, I highly doubt that TSN/Bell would allow an Argos game to be bumped for a CONCACAF game.
    If other teams can sign DP's with turf you're damn right MLSE would consider it with Desso making the transition. To think they are above that, smarter than that, is to say "Never". Never a great idea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by king10 View Post
    Not at a computer at the moment. When i get to one ill try to dig up the lease agreement.
    I would greatly appreciate that. It would be a big step towards this Argos talk. Except for the schedule still being to crammed to avoid the fall in quality of the pitch...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auzzy View Post
    ^ That's why New England, Seattle, and Portland never sign DPs; or host national games or friendlies.

    ...
    To be fair, Seattle didn't get a game for years, even with FIFA designating their surface as FIFA grade. And when did they last play in Portland or NER?

    And, can anybody have seen Kaka or Defoe or Gerrard or Lampard going to a turf team?

    A local CFL operation doesn't even compare to the money TFC gets from one international friendly. The CFL's growth potential is nowhere near as good as soccer. (Yes, Mulder, we've had this argument before but CIS attendance does not count as CFL interest). MLS has the potential to be a BIG revenue generator. Nobody, but Nobody is talking about huge future growth in revenues for the CFL. They are for MLS.

    If MLSE want to spend $3- 5 million on a pitch that undercuts the future for the sake of an operational money loser, then they are far more stupid then they have been up until now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fort York Redcoat View Post
    Can they? They have the ability to, surely. But we're talking about something with no precedent. Do you know for certain of the National teams have priority?
    right of the City/Board to use the stadium for a significant part of any available dates annually on a cost recovery basis only for the City, CNE, World's Fair and Olympics (subject to use for regularly scheduled major league soccer games and FIFA games) and for other public events; http://ottawa.ca/cal...Main Report.pdf

    not to mention the lease agreement w the argos can be drawn up so they are behind the csa in priority
    Last edited by king10; 02-23-2015 at 02:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC07 View Post
    Yup. MLSE will never be right owners when comes to soccer.

    They obviously have no clue what they're doing and we're seeing results of that on-field since day one. If wasn't for strong local support for soccer in this market, then TFC would have folded already like Chivas USA.

    I personally believe that winning TFC team will explore in this market and truly make BMO field the place to be in summer time (sorry Blue Jay fans, but baseball is boring sport with no atmosphere whatsoever).
    Haha as much as I personally agree with you concerning America's pastime this still paints a picture for me of the sports landscape:




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    Quote Originally Posted by Fort York Redcoat View Post
    If other teams can sign DP's with turf you're damn right MLSE would consider it with Desso making the transition. To think they are above that, smarter than that, is to say "Never". Never a great idea.
    I fall back on the 'return on investment' point of view. Why would MLSE invest millions in grass and the heating infrastructure only to yank it up so they can get 10 more dates at home, threaten the franchise established there and cut off / limit other events there that they *still* get a cut on.

    You are right, never say never, but the money end (the only end they seem to understand) doesn't point to plastic being the answer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fort York Redcoat View Post
    Again with the not "too bad".

    Can someone layout how priority scheduling could cure the issue of scheduling?

    The MLS schedule is released
    The Vcup schedule is released
    The CFL schedule is released

    There are friendlies and Internationals scheduled in there as well. It sounds pretty challenging to prevent at least a couple 3 day turnarounds in there.
    There could be a few 3 day turnarounds, probably for cup games. But I think you're overestimating how crowded the schedule will be.

    Argos play 9-10 games mid-June to mid-November. That's 20 weeks. This year TFC has 14 games in that span, a little higher than normal due to the reno. Add in 2-3 playoff games (I know...), 2 VCup, and 2 CCL.

    MLS schedule comes out first so we get priority for all dates. CFL commissioner has said he's willing to work with TFC on scheduling.

    They could do TFC Friday/Sat, Argo Sun/Mon to allow for five day turnarounds. Schedule VCup, CCL, and friendlies on weeks Argos are away (which will be 10 weeks of the time frame I stated).

    Really shouldn't be too hard to maintain a minimum 5 day turnaround after Argos games. I imagine we'll get more home games before mid-June too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    To be fair, Seattle didn't get a game for years, even with FIFA designating their surface as FIFA grade. And when did they last play in Portland or NER?

    And, can anybody have seen Kaka or Defoe or Gerrard or Lampard going to a turf team?
    Well, Gillette stadium is hosting Gold Cup games.

    Throw enough money at a player and they get enticed? Dempsey and Martins may not be top tier player, but Seattle has other things going for them to make it attractive
    “Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.

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    And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yohan View Post
    Well, Gillette stadium is hosting Gold Cup games.

    Throw enough money at a player and they get enticed? Dempsey and Martins may not be top tier player, but Seattle has other things going for them to make it attractive
    Is gilette bringing in a temp grass surface tho?

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    I've read Argo fans who think BMO will be painted blue for them, based on TV numbers.

    As for the attendance #'s, the Argos have been papering for years - BMO won't change that. But, TSN and CFL apologists in the media will go on and on about how great the atmosphere is no matter how many actually show up.
    And in a small stadium the atmosphere might actually be good - there's no reason an Als-Argos game wouldn't have good atmosphere, or Ti-Cats-Argos in a good stadium. Of course, that stadium should be a CFL stadium and also home to university and even high school football in the GTA.

    But we have no sports entrepeneurs with any vision in this city, it's all corporate money acting the way corporate money always acts.

 

 

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