That is true....which is why MLSE have the upper hand here. They don't have to do jack shit if the Argos want to play at BMO. Braley isn't in a position to negotiate here.Originally Posted by Shakes McQueen
That is true....which is why MLSE have the upper hand here. They don't have to do jack shit if the Argos want to play at BMO. Braley isn't in a position to negotiate here.
Yes. And MLSE want football at the stadium.
MLSE isn't good at keeping their cards close to their chest. Let's not forget what drove the expansion talk in the first place:
… and this is about as direct as it can be with respect to MLSE's interest in CFL Football being played at BMO.“It fits a lot of needs,” he said. “It renovates it for TFC, it certainly renovates it for the Pan Am Games, it renovates it for rugby. The Grey Cup would be phenomenal in an outdoor setting in Toronto on the lake, but (the Winter Classic is) clearly one of the things we put on the wish list."
….
“We know what we’ve got to do and we’ve seen some designs already that would work,” said Leiweke. “We have a pretty good idea how to take the capacity and get it to one level for permanent and expand it for things like this.
“We have a path – now we’re just trying to figure it out.”
- Tim Leiweke , Dec 31st 2013
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/24-7/...ng-to-toronto/
… then there is the partnership at Downsview. Honouring the City and it's obligations…??? riiiiiight"MLSE also wants it to happen," Hunter said.
"We've always hoped that the CFL comes," he said. "It's a natural situation, a great solution for them."
- Bob Hunter, MLSE Chief Facilities and Live Event Officer
http://www.tsn.ca/first-phase-of-bmo...future-1.89132
When did the Argos drop out of the option of going to BMO?
They dropped out of the York proposal and right away signed a 15 year lease (5 years initially and two 5 year options) to remain at Skydome in May 2005.
YOu don't think the Argos could've got out of that contract with Rogers Centre to be a part of the initial BMO deal?
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
I'm sure they could have - but that's not the point is it? They never pulled out of any deal to play at BMO - as this poster has repeatedly said.
Also - it would have been stupid of them to leave the Rogers Centre for a stadium with a capacity of 10,000 less than they were averaging at the time
Last edited by GabrielHurl; 03-28-2015 at 02:01 PM.
The city directed MLSE to negotiate 20 year lease with the Argos with the recent renovation agreement, suggesting that this first Argo Clause now isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
With the reported difference at only 10m, and the city telling MLSE to work out a lease agreement with the Argos, Braley actually has most of the cards. The issue and delay isn't if the Argos are going to BMO, it's what's the eventual selling price for the Argos.
The city can't force MLSE to pay for the 10m it would take to accomodate CFL football so no, Braley doesn't hold the most cards. If no one foots the $10 million, the Argos aren't coming unless they're willing to play on a smaller field.
Source?
And, no, the original 2 stage agreement does not count.
The full clause allows MLSE to waive the financial condition if they choose. That was something negotiated and signed off on by MLSE.
They are coming.
MLSE wants them.
And yet they haven't waived the condition.
No need to waive it at this point when a lease offer was extended by MLSE.
The interesting part is that they negotiated and ultimately were granted the ability to waive. Well Tim's comments about Grey Cups are equally interesting. Well, and Bob Hunter saying they want the Argos to come, that's interesting. Well, and the Kia training grounds partnership, that's interesting right there. Then there is the actual lease offer, that qualifies as interesting too.
How it can be concluded that the City is exclusively pushing this is beyond me.
Last edited by Pookie; 03-29-2015 at 06:18 AM.
That's what I'm saying. The condition still sits and if its not met, MLSE can just walk away.
What? Sure their attendance would've been affected to move into BMO when it was built but that doesn't change the point they had an opportunity from the outset and chose to stay in a contract with Rogers Centre.I'm sure they could have - but that's not the point is it? They never pulled out of any deal to play at BMO - as this poster has repeatedly said.
Also - it would have been stupid of them to leave the Rogers Centre for a stadium with a capacity of 10,000 less than they were averaging at the time
What difference is it to the Argos? None. They get to go to BMO either way.
From a TFC POV they got grass to enjoy for few years until the Argos come and ruin it.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
Where has anyone heard that the $10m each from the province and Feds is locked up?
Last edited by Redpunkfiddle; 03-29-2015 at 12:44 PM.
That's all I'll say about that.
Yes, this proves my point exactly. The Argos were part of a group that wanted to build a stadium for the 2007 U20 World Cup and be the home of the National Soccer Stadium(CSA) and the prospective MLS Franchise (MLSE). This proposal ultimately was built at Exhibition Place and we know it as BMO, but was originally proposed to be at U of T. That fell through and York was proposed. That fell through, the Argos dropped out, the City became part of it and The Exhibition Place agreement was reached, all in the matter of a few months. They had their chance, were part of it and dropped out.
I think eveyone needs a history lesson reminder about the timeline of what happened here - as this ^^^^ isn't correct
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Football/C...01/651476.html
Announcement of the Argos/CSA stadium at Varsity here (notice there's no mention of MLSE) - http://www.cbc.ca/sports/football/ne...occer-1.511637When Howard Sokolowski and David Cynamon bought the Argos last November (2003) and vowed to build a new stadium, they commissioned a study to identify sites most appealing to the fan base. U of T's Varsity location, Exhibition Place and York University's northern campus were short-listed.
Then Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment Ltd. entered into negotiations with U of T on a multiple sports complex/shopping centre in the varsity area. The CSA, which had unveiled plans for a potential soccer/football stadium at Exhibition Place but lacked the funding, joined MLSEL's bid, along with the Argos.
When MLSEL dropped out this spring because the venture didn't provide a reasonable financial return to its backers, the Argos and the CSA carried forward with U of T.
The federal and provincial governments have pledged $35 million if a stadium is built and the CSA has acquired the rights to hold the world youth championship in 2007.
The U of T announced yesterday it was withdrawing from the project because of rising costs.
Announcement of U of T pulling out here - http://www.cbc.ca/sports/football/pl...mbles-1.486858
York plans
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Football/C...04/700446.html
After U of T withdrew, the Argos owners called Kevan Pipe, the Canadian Soccer Association's chief operating officer. The federal and provincial governments agreed earlier in the year to pay a combined $35 million toward the cost of the project if the CSA secured the rights to the World Youth Championship. That happened in July.
Pipe was in Toronto, preparing for his own meeting with the U of T the following morning, when the Argos owners called.
"I was pretty shocked," Pipe said. "It came totally out of the blue. We heard there were some rising costs, but we had already met with the architects to look at some solutions to contain some of those costs and those solutions had been reached."
The next day Pipe made a call to FIFA, the world governing body of soccer, to make sure the setback would not jeopardize Canada's chances of playing host to the soccer championship. FIFA indicated its desire to keep the tournament in Canada and to give the CSA additional time to work out the stadium dilemma.
Because Sokolowski and Cynamon had vowed to build a stadium, they had to devise a quick change in strategy and go to the hurry-up offence. While the U of T issued a press release explaining its decision to back away from the project because of escalating costs -- an idea Cynamon denied quite emotionally in a radio interview -- the plan to shift to an alternative stadium site already had begun. Sokolowski phoned York University's chairman of the board, Marshall (Mickey) Cohen. The two had known one another from a previous deal Sokolowski's company, Tribute Communities, entered into with the university to build 400 homes on the perimeter of the school's property. In the summer of 2003, when Sokolowski's name started to surface as a potential buyer of the Argos, Cohen called him wondering if it was true. When Sokolowski confirmed it, Cohen told him the team needed its own stadium and that York had plans to build one for its own needs, so it could be a perfect fit for both parties.
Sokolowski agreed, but the stadium project shifted back to U of T when Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment Ltd. suddenly jumped into the mix in December of 2003 with intentions to partner with the school on a multiple sports complex/shopping centre in the Bloor/Devonshire corridor. The Argos had no choice but to watch those developments because they potentially would be included at some point, possibly with MLSEL buying a percentage of the team.
Some three months later, MLSEL withdrew from the project because of the low return on investment and the Argos, along with the CSA, joined together in resurrecting the project at the U of T.
Now, following various twists and turns at the U of T, Sokolowski wanted to know if York still had an interest in building a stadium.
"So, you want your old room back?" Cohen jokingly asked Sokolowski.Here's the official press release about the $70million Argos/CSA Stadium at York (again no mention of MLSE) - http://yfile.news.yorku.ca/2004/10/1...dium-for-york/On Oct. 3, Sokolowski, Cynamon and their business manager huddled at York with its vice-president of finance, Gary Brewer, and a representative of Capital Canada, a consultant/financial house engaged by the university to help out with negotiations and provide advice.
The meeting took a few hours during which the financial splits of the deal were discussed along with a concept -- provided by the Argos -- of how the stadium would be built and operated so that it physically and culturally reflect the university's needs and realities.
Following phone and e-mail exchanges, the parties met three days later in the offices of Capital Canada and banged out the broader terms of the deal.
On Oct. 11 -- Thanksgiving Day -- York officials and the Argos put together the final particulars of the deal so it could be presented to York's 32-member board of directors. The deal consisted of the federal and provincial governments contributing $35 million, the university adding $15 million and the Argos covering the balance of the projected $70-million stadium.
A conference call was set up for Oct. 13 at 8 a.m. Some 20 board members were rounded up on the short notice and Brewer took them through the terms of the deal. The call lasted about an hour.
"The board asked all the right due-diligence questions and were absolutely unanimous in their enthusiasm -- students, staff, faculty, external governors," Marsden said. "They gave me permission to go ahead and make the deal on those terms."
Marsden called Volpe and indicated unanimous support for the project from the university's governors. Miller also was briefed.
On Oct. 15, York officials issued a press release indicating an important announcement at the school on Oct. 18. By this time, the word was out that the deal was done.
Then the Argos pulled out of this deal in May 2005 signing a 15 year lease at Skydome, leaving the CSA in the lurch - http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Football/C...3/1023523.htmlIn addition to Ottawa's $27 million, York will provide land and $15 million from its capital budget towards construction, private capital led by Cynamon and Sokolowski will contribute another $20 million and the Ontario government will provide $8 million. York, which will own the facility, will share in stadium revenue, which is projected to cover the University's initial outlay. The Argos will be responsible for any operating shortfall in a given year.
The CSA and MLSE came together for a plan to build a stadium at Exhibition Place. Don Garber announced on October 11, 2005 that MLSE had been granted the exclusive rights through October 31, 2005 to negotiate an agreement to acquire the rights to a Major League Soccer expansion team that will commence play in Toronto in 2007.
2 weeks later - City council approved the building of a 20,000 seat stadium - which would be capable of being converted to a football format - http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/2005/a...9rpt/cl036.pdf
CSA press release about the stadium being approved
http://www.canadasoccer.com/exhibiti...proved-p147226
What is not mentioned in all the intrigue linked above by Gabriel Hurl is the involvement of David Braley. Despite Cynamon and Sokolowski being featured as Argos owners, Braley was basically half owner of the Argos all through their tenure when they purportedly bought the club from the CFL, who were operating it after its second bankruptcy. It's not plausible that all these developments could have occurred without his knowledge, involvement and approval.
The Argos have been a shambles for decades. Moving to BMO Field will simply bring that shambles onto the site of a thriving soccer project and create the potential for tremendous harm for Toronto FC and it's loyal and supportive fans. A clusterfucque of the highest order.
It also goes to show how weak the CSA were in all of this and, in particular, Kevan Pipe, who was a desperate man to do something, anything (great album, wot?) to advance soccer under his reign of error.
Last edited by greatwhitenorf; 03-29-2015 at 06:16 PM.
And everything I read says plans for phase three of renovations expire on 15 May 2017. Get ready for 2+ years of them whining to get the government to pay for it. Although it will be hilarious when they make the "If you don't pay for it, we'll move to Fort McMurray" threat.
that's what I'm wondering.
Will the money actually show up?
is this some sort of game of Chicken?
also, will the jays actually have grass by 2017?
i kind of doubt it.
i'm sure there is some sort of date, that if they aren't 100% ready to break ground within days of the final out of the 2016 season...it gets pushed back until 2018.
Why couldn't the Jays get grass next off season?
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
Because they aren't sure it will grow inside the Dome - they are getting the University of Guelph to see how feasible it is
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/baseball/ml...rass-1.2947762
That is rich. Kick out the Argos to TRY to have grass.
A lot of people would have a better (samaratan) opinion of this issue if the move was guaranteed to be temporary.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
that's the thing.
i might not ever be possible.
the cost of the specialized sun lamps, etc...
making the jumbotron more "outdoor" friendly...
the UV damage to the seats.
etc etc.
the dome was designed to be a closed space that can open occasionally.
if they go natural grass...if it is even possible...they will need to change to an open facility that closes when needed.
it is a big difference.
if they don't have a sure thing in terms of grass installation and maintenance for Nov 1, 2016...the date will have to change to Nov 1, 2017.
Last edited by Wagner; 03-30-2015 at 10:30 AM.
https://twitter.com/RedPatchBoys/sta...85272144510976
The issue isn't that the Argo's would be too hard on the blue jays grass. It would be that the stadium would be locked in Baseball configuration.
NFL teams, can and do make it work.
Oakland currently.
Cleveland back in the day.
SanFran in the XFL.
The Patriots at Fenway
Pinstripe Bowl at Yankee Stadium.
etc etc.
i'm sure there are more examples.
This is stellar. Amazing.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
So, how much renovation will it take for the Blue Jays to move to BMO?
(sorry)
^Swweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet looking stadiums...
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
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