Argos to BMO decision - Wednesday, May 20th

[king10]

Petor, because he's trolling.
Coming on a Soccer Forum, to rip on Soccer.

I suggested going to a CFL forum, he might be happier there.
But i'm guessing there isn't one...or no one goes on it.

where the heck did i rip on soccer? I just stated facts of england nt. Please dont throw accusations around like that.

Also thanks for branding me solely a CFL fan when I've had TFC season tix with my family since 2007 and haven't missed a MNT team game at BMO in years.

but sure since im a CFL fan I cant be a fan of soccer as well.

Regardless if im a CFL fan all i did was post stats showing Englands NT playing home matches since 2007 and now im accused of trolling and told to go to a CFL forum by the VP.

[Fort York Redcoat]

not trolling. Dissapointing response from a VP though.

you guys sure make it difficult for anyone other than a rpb to support this team. Seems like quite an exclusive club.

Why bring the team into this?

There are members that aren't bothered by the Argos moving in that don't think the move will be THAT BAD. Just like you.

I'm not one of them.

And you are definitely looking to dismiss the importance of this Argos to BMO move and its larger repercussions.

Still, you're right. You're diligence hasn't become trolling. Though using England as a comparison to Canada's amount of National matches is pretty ridiculous.

Also - Our membership are from near and far from all walks of life. Some even like the Ti-cats just like you.

[MightyDM]

Based on reading that document, another pre-condition to the final agreement is that both the Federal and Provincial governments kick in $10 million each. Since this hasn't happened, I doubt the city has funded their $10 million contribution, which probably means that technically, the Argos pre-condition doesn't apply.

And that means that council could say "you don't have to get the Argos". So the councillor quoted above either doesn't know this issue, or is trying to duck it. Or both!

[Petor]

not trolling. Dissapointing response from a VP though.

you guys sure make it difficult for anyone other than a rpb to support this team. Seems like quite an exclusive club.

It's not that, our VP was pointing out that you were wrong in your posting.
If you don't like our VP's response because it doesn't conform to your views then leave or go to the Argo forum.

[king10]

It's not that, our VP was pointing out that you were wrong in you posting.
If you don't like our VP's response because it doesn't conform to your views then leave or go to the Argo forum.

Its not that it doesn't conform to my views. It's the fact he called me a troll and accused me of "ripping" on soccer. Which i did not do. Also why are people even bringing up the CFL and the Argo's I haven't commented on support for the CFL or the Argo's in this forum in over a month(seriously, look at my post history this month). What i did was post stats of the England NT. Why should I have to go to an Argo forum for that? I'm attempting to assimilate and join in the discussion and I'm not running my mouth supporting the CFL or Argo's. I've actually refrained from that.

Don't think i am being given a fair shake and don't appreciate being accused of "trolling" and "ripping" on soccer when its my favourite sport to play watch and support.

[Petor]

Its not that I dont conform to my views. It's the fact he called me a troll and accused me of "ripping" on soccer. Which i did not do. Also why are people even bring up the CFL and the Argo's I haven't commented on support for the CFL or the Argo's in this forum in close to a month. What i did was post stats of the England NT. Why should I have to go to an Argo forum for that?

Don't think i am being given a fair shake.

Everything that you are trying to post is that it is ok for the Argos to move into BMO field, no problems!

WRONG!!! (my opinion)

[Fort York Redcoat]

Its not that I dont conform to my views. It's the fact he called me a troll and accused me of "ripping" on soccer. Which i did not do. Also why are people even bring up the CFL and the Argo's I haven't commented on support for the CFL or the Argo's in this forum in close to a month(seriously, look at my post history this month). What i did was post stats of the England NT. Why should I have to go to an Argo forum for that?

Don't think i am being given a fair shake.

And now I'm telling you again that what you've done so far hasn't been trolling though you may want to move on from comparing how much Canada and England play in their respective "National Stadiums".

Also - posts last on forums for over a month. You could delete your posts and we'd still know what your previous bias is.

[king10]

And now I'm telling you again that what you've done so far hasn't been trolling though you may want to move on from comparing how much Canada and England play in their respective "National Stadiums".

Also - posts last on forums for over a month. You could delete your posts and we'd still know what your previous bias is.

not hiding that. i just posted to feel free to read my post history. Im making an attempt to assimilate and put our differences aside as well all share common support for TFC. Don't hate on me for something I posted months ago and label me for it when I'm not posting anything like that now.

[Fort York Redcoat]

not hiding that. i just posted to feel free to read my post history. Im making an attempt to assimilate and put our differences aside as well all share common support for TFC. Don't hate on me for something I posted months ago and label me for it when I'm not posting anything like that now.

No hate here.

We disagree on what's important with this particular issue. That's all this is.

We should all get back to the topic at hand and make this less personal. Including myself. Carry on.

[Petor]

not hiding that. i just posted to feel free to read my post history. Im making an attempt to assimilate and put our differences aside as well all share common support for TFC. Don't hate on me for something I posted months ago and label me for it when I'm not posting anything like that now.

Bottom line is, after posting that, as a TFC supporter how can you accept Argos moving to our National Soccer Stadium?

[king10]

Bottom line is, after posting that, as a TFC supporter how can you accept Argos moving to our National Soccer Stadium?

I've made it clear why I accept it before(read my post history). Rehashing that will just create another off topic argument.

For sake of this thread getting derailed I agree with what redcoat said. Let's get this thread back on topic.

[Ryan1984]

Every one of your comparisons are not like for like. Those teams don't play entire gridiron schedules. 2 of those teams are in a temperate climate. None of those teams host National sides regularly (more than once a year). And finally both Houston and especially Chicago have had unacceptable surfaces as recent as last season.

So your saying we have had an acceptable grass surface at BMO every year? We have had a "unacceptable" surface at some point every year since the grass has gone in its not like we have ever had the best grass surface in mls at any point in the 6 years we have had the grass.

[jimiv]

Maybe MLSE should buy the Argos, they have the resources to renovate York University Stadium and have the team share a place made for pointy-ball with the University, part of their deal could be that the York Lions move soccer to the TFC2 field in Vaughn. From what I hear Argo fans are from along the 407 anyway.

[Pookie]

At risk of being called anti-TFC, it might work out.

Rugby and EPL exist on hybrid surfaces. EPL is clearly light years ahead on quality vs MLS and our beloved playoff missing TFC.

Is your support for TFC so contingent on not seeing lines that you consider yourself better than a Hull City FC supporter ?

[greatwhitenorf]

Apart from writing my ticket rep and TFC sponsors, my next plan is to get in touch with the local community soccer clubs to bring this issue to their attention and seek their participation in battling against the possibility of the Argos moving in.

They provide an important outlet to TFC for group sales and the start of crade-to-grave marketing. If enough of them speak as one voice, it will have an effect. Think about contacting minor soccer clubs in your area.

[Cashcleaner]

from my councillor:
Thanks for writing. While BMO Field is leased to MLSE by the City, they retain the right to program and retrofit it as they see fit. I do not believe there is a role the City can play between these two privately owned businesses as they continue their discussions with other levels of government, but I appreciate you sharing your concern for the well-being of BMO field. The expansion of the field (to the sizes described in the article) already have approvals from City Council, and the City is not contributing to the expansion in it's capital plan. The $10 Million output will be fully recovered by the City.

You can see the summary of this decision here: http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2...file-67466.pdf

You sound like you know what you are talking about with respect to the condition of the turf. Have you shared your concerns directly with the MLSE?

I would hesitate to make the claim that the City has no say in this matter, but on the flip side, I never believed the MLSE corporate line that it was completely our of THEIR hands as well. The truth is likely somewhere in between. I would wager both parties have negotiated between them certain terms of usage or leasing arrangements.

[greatwhitenorf]

Maybe MLSE should buy the Argos, they have the resources to renovate York University Stadium and have the team share a place made for pointy-ball with the University, part of their deal could be that the York Lions move soccer to the TFC2 field in Vaughn. From what I hear Argo fans are from along the 407 anyway.

I think the Pan Am games stadium up at York U is the ideal solution. It would allow the Argos to build a proper home for their game while incorporating activity from other levels of Canadian football as a showcase venue. No dis-respect to the track and field people or other less-visible sports that might use it, but it's not like this stadium is going to be in huge demand or make a lot of money to pay back its cost anytime soon.

The Argos presence there would create a fine legacy for the facility and the money spent upgrading the site would benefit all users without creating the hostility or damage to the core sport that this mooted move to BMO will cause.

[GabrielHurl]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record.

York University don't want anything to do with the Argos.

They have been burned by them before in 2004.

They aren't willing to rip up the natural turf infield at the new track stadium as they would not be able to host any more events as the IAAF will not sanction events with an artifical infield.

The stadium is going to be used for athletics and for the rugby team only. The football and soccer teams have their own fields elsewhere on campus.

The stadium only has 3,000 permament seats. For the games - they are bringing in 9,500 temporary seats.

There's no room to bring in another 7,500 - not too mention concessions, washrooms etc. There's a road running along the north side of the stadium, university buildings to the west and south and a large wooded lot to the east which is protected by the Toronto Region Conservation Authority.

[Auzzy]

Well it can't be much worse than what we were used to at the beginning of last year. Because the field was shite.

That's one of those over-the-top comments that show your bias & piss people off. We weren't "used to" the conditions at BMO Field early 2014, nor should we be. It was a disaster. It was after an extreme winter in Toronto, one of the longest & coldest in a long time. The conditions were unacceptable. Just for soccer, they need grow lights at BMO Field. And they need a proper winter tarp. For that, they also need permission for limited use of pesticides/herbicides, specifically in the winter months & in combination with the thicker tarp. The tarp will help the chemicals from escaping. Other uses such as golf also have limited exceptions.

That's what we need. What we don't need is CFL coming in & making it much harder to maintain the field, despite hybrid turf. Toronto is a tough environment for growing grass, especially down along the lake.

[Auzzy]

Is it possible to lay turf down over grass? Kind of like the opposite of what we did for the Real Madrid friendly.

Imagine if you could just roll out a big, breathable carpet for 5 hours at a time.

This has been discussed a couple of times. No it's not possible. Grass is much too soft a surface to lay plastic on top. Plastic turf needs a stronger stable base. Plus it comes in strips. It would be much too heavy to roll out anything bigger.

Plus the grass & soil underneath would be compacted far too much.

Building a structure above would be possible, as mentioned earlier in this thread, RE Wembley Stadium. However that's a huge contraption, takes a long time to setup or take down, and it's a total of 6 metres above the grass playing surface. (I think it actually has grow lights underneath.) You lose a large percentage of the capacity of the stadium, over 20%. It's also expensive: perhaps that alone costs more than the Argos are actually worth?

The only technically feasible solution is sliding the grass pitch in & out, like in Arizona, or the Shalke's Veltins stadium. But you would lose lots of parking capacity during Argos games. And of course its incredibly expensive, nobody is going to pay for that.

[king10]

That's one of those over-the-top comments that show your bias & piss people off. We weren't "used to" the conditions at BMO Field early 2014, nor should we be. It was a disaster. It was after an extreme winter in Toronto, one of the longest & coldest in a long time. The conditions were unacceptable. Just for soccer, they need grow lights at BMO Field. And they need a proper winter tarp. For that, they also need permission for limited use of pesticides/herbicides, specifically in the winter months & in combination with the thicker tarp. The tarp will help the chemicals from escaping. Other uses such as golf also have limited exceptions.

That's what we need. What we don't need is CFL coming in & making it much harder to maintain the field, despite hybrid turf. Toronto is a tough environment for growing grass, especially down along the lake.

Please. Enough with the personal attacks. We've decided to put that to bed and get on with the thread topic. No need to quote that when it was 5 pages ago and rehash another argument after we put it behind us.

Enough please.

[Auzzy]

Argos comments on Twitter & elsewhere are sickening. Total bias. Misplaced arrogance towards soccer & TFC. Serious lack of knowledge.

That's the attitude we can expect from Argos fans, players, most of the media, and most of the general public if Argos come to BMO. "Suck it up butter cup. Soccer players whine & fake it anyway. Be tough Canadians. What's wrong with playing on bumpy mud."

Argh I'm pissed.

[jimiv]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record.

York University don't want anything to do with the Argos.

They have been burned by them before in 2004.

They aren't willing to rip up the natural turf infield at the new track stadium as they would not be able to host any more events as the IAAF will not sanction events with an artifical infield.

The stadium is going to be used for athletics and for the rugby team only. The football and soccer teams have their own fields elsewhere on campus.

The stadium only has 3,000 permament seats. For the games - they are bringing in 9,500 temporary seats.

There's no room to bring in another 7,500 - not too mention concessions, washrooms etc. There's a road running along the north side of the stadium, university buildings to the west and south and a large wooded lot to the east which is protected by the Toronto Region Conservation Authority.

I think MLSE will not be looked at as past Argo ownership, and really if they want to use protected land, with today's government I'm sure they can come to an arrangement.

As for space Rip up the track and move seating inwards and upwards, where there's a will there's a way ($) and besides MLSE is good at getting their way.

[jimiv]

Argos comments on Twitter & elsewhere are sickening. Total bias. Misplaced arrogance towards soccer & TFC. Serious lack of knowledge.

That's the attitude we can expect from Argos fans, players, most of the media, and most of the general public if Argos come to BMO. "Suck it up butter cup. Soccer players whine & fake it anyway. Be tough Canadians. What's wrong with playing on bumpy mud."

Argh I'm pissed.

You need to be patient with them, brain damage is common in their sport.

[ag futbol]

Call me biased (I am), but this move will not be the silver bullet the Argos need to solve their problems. Franchise is going to continue to struggle. That being said, it will still hurt TFC.

The sad part is the CSA through it's usual bumbling incompetence is nowhere to be found. Their inability to schedule friendlies and use an asset they wanted so badly in the first place is contributing to this situation. If they actually committed to playing a handful of games a year and were drawing decent crowds, that would probably be more than enough to tell the charity-case CFL team to find somewhere else to go. But instead...

The talk of a Canadian league is laughable. These guys can hardly manage getting out of bed in the morning and we think they are capable of that?

[Areathrasher]

This has been discussed a couple of times. No it's not possible. Grass is much too soft a surface to lay plastic on top. Plastic turf needs a stronger stable base. Plus it comes in strips. It would be much too heavy to roll out anything bigger.

Plus the grass & soil underneath would be compacted far too much.

Building a structure above would be possible, as mentioned earlier in this thread, RE Wembley Stadium. However that's a huge contraption, takes a long time to setup or take down, and it's a total of 6 metres above the grass playing surface. (I think it actually has grow lights underneath.) You lose a large percentage of the capacity of the stadium, over 20%. It's also expensive: perhaps that alone costs more than the Argos are actually worth?

The only technically feasible solution is sliding the grass pitch in & out, like in Arizona, or the Shalke's Veltins stadium. But you would lose lots of parking capacity during Argos games. And of course its incredibly expensive, nobody is going to pay for that.

Wembley actually laid plastic down over the grass and then built an asphalt track on top of the plastic

http://argosadmirals.com/2015/03/24/...-on-the-pitch/

[king10]

I think MLSE will not be looked at as past Argo ownership, and really if they want to use protected land, with today's government I'm sure they can come to an arrangement.

As for space Rip up the track and move seating inwards and upwards, where there's a will there's a way ($) and besides MLSE is good at getting their way.

The thing is there is no will on the part of York and Athletics Canada as they dont want the track to be ripped up. And after all its the university's stadium and university's property so if they don't want it thats basically the end of it.

I'd like to see the Argo's further north in the 407 corridor where most of their fans are. Just need a stadium and someone to pay for it. Perhaps if we buy lottery tickets and win the $50 million we can contribute to the project

[king10]

What I'm saying is that you know what our winters are like so some FIFA friendlies and matches have to be played in Florida and those games as a home team because we have no choice because of the weather here.
And a thank you to Florida for hosting our home games in the winter.

Call me biased (I am), but this move will not be the silver bullet the Argos need to solve their problems. Franchise is going to continue to struggle. That being said, it will still hurt TFC.

The sad part is the CSA through it's usual bumbling incompetence is nowhere to be found. Their inability to schedule friendlies and use an asset they wanted so badly in the first place is contributing to this situation. If they actually committed to playing a handful of games a year and were drawing decent crowds, that would probably be more than enough to tell the charity-case CFL team to find somewhere else to go. But instead...

The talk of a Canadian league is laughable. These guys can hardly manage getting out of bed in the morning and we think they are capable of that?

Petor touched on that point earlier. Tough to play a lot of games at BMO when half the players are based in North America and the weather is really bad during the winter.

During WCQ though it's a different story. BMO could see in upwards of 4 to 5 MNT games in a calendar year (like last cycle). And even more if we made the hex.

[Auzzy]

Wembley actually laid plastic down over the grass and then built an asphalt track on top of the plastic

http://argosadmirals.com/2015/03/24/...-on-the-pitch/

Hadn't heard of that before, very interesting. Wembley does have the other contraption as well, e.g. for track & field events, but it's probably not strong enough for car racing, plus you lose so much seating.

Personally I'm not convinced though. That article sounds a bit like an advertisement. We have heard many complaints about multiple uses and poor pitch conditions at Wembley -- maybe this is one of the reasons? Those plastic tiles don't carry the weight, they pass it to the grass & soil below. Compaction, lack of aeration, and lack of airflow (from above) are big problems for grass.

[Wagner]

Please. Enough with the personal attacks. We've decided to put that to bed and get on with the thread topic. No need to quote that when it was 5 pages ago and rehash another argument after we put it behind us.

Enough please.

you bring it on yourself.

a reputation is earned.