Argos to BMO decision - Wednesday, May 20th

[Shakes McQueen]

Well, it shouldn't be, but have you seen how these guys have run their other businesses? Think of BMO as your cable and phone service... Maybe one thing that will keep MLSE (through Bell/TSN) from getting too interested in the Argos and the CFL is the steps the CRTC is taking to reduce the amount of Canadian content required.

The thing is, even if they are operating on the idea that "more money = good" no matter what, it becomes a matter of whether money now from the Argos, could diminish the potential return on their investment from TFC down the line.

And is taking that risk worth it, for whatever "drop in the bucket" (to borrow the popular vernacular people always use when talking about MLSE spending a few million bucks) the Argos will toss MLSE's way most years? They're a corporation worth over a billion dollars, who presumably plan to own TFC for decades, and want to see that "investment" flourish.

Especially when they are wantonly dropping millions on designated players?

[king10]

Where's CSA in all this mess? Isn't this suppose to be "National Soccer Stadium"? What was the point of getting Feds involved when first funded this stadium if they're letting MLSE do whatever it wants with it.

Note: Without CSA, there will be no tax money coming from Federal government to build BMO field which was built for FIFA Under 20 World Cup and Canadian national soccer teams (both men and women).

The CSA sometimes uses the stadium as little as once per year. Despite it being unoficially the national soccer stadium, I dont think their voice carries much weight. I'm sure they put in a word demanding it be kept grass though. Other than that the Argos moving in for 10 games a year when they use it maybe 3 to 5 times a year probably doesn't really bother them as long as the field remains grass.

[king10]

I share the concerns with pitch quality. I share the concerns with painted ads and lines left behind. I am concerned with MLSE guiding the process. How the stands will adjust is only one area still to be properly determined.

For me though, the biggest concern is one of karma. The Argos arrive like a bad smell. No options, no profit, no money, an owner who wants out yesterday. The Argos have been a sinking ship in the GTA for decades. I am one of many who are astounded at the Ontario tv ratings for CFL and Argos. I have not overheard water cooler talk about the Argos in eons. NFL and US College = football in the GTA.
The Argos are the ghost of Toronto sports teams and they could be said to stagger into BMO because they have no place left to go. I should pity them. I should recall the glory days and what they meant to me as a child, a teen, a young man....but if they stagger it is due to decades of self-inflicted wounds. Pull together.....ha. This is their last stop.

There won't be any painted ads on the grass portion. Ads may be in the endzone but that is artificial turf and covered by the retractable stands. If they want ads on the field they can digitally add them to the TV broadcast.

[OgtheDim]

Well it can't be much worse than what we were used to at the beginning of last year. Because the field was shite.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/articl...et-draw-record



It was.

[Wagner]

You know who MLSE will listen to when it comes to complaints?
Sponsors.

Let them know that you think it looks poorly on them if TFC appears bush league with lines on the pitch, and massive divots.

as we try to build a world class club (it will take time), set backs like this won't help.


if the partners hear enough about this, they'll complain to MLSE.

this is who will make them listen.
http://www.torontofc.ca/content/partners

BMO
feedback@bmo.com

Budweiser
@budCanada (twitter)



Kia
jsulymka@kia.ca

Canadian Tire
@canadiantire
investor.relations@cantire.com

Rogers (don't bother, they kicked the argos out)

PizzaPizza
feedback@pizzapizza.ca

Adidas
contactus@adidas.com

Coca-cola
mediacentre@coca-cola.ca

Toronto Star
sponsorships@thestar.ca

Cisco
still looking

Pioneer
info@pioneerfuels.ca

Tim Hortons
@timhortons (twitter)


Subway
@SubwayCanada (twitter)

SportChek
same as CanTire really

Purolator
can't find


Mastercard
still looking


intact insurance
info@intact.net

PokerStars
support@pokerstars.com

Expedia
canad@expedia.com

just energy
info@justenergy.com


Oasis (juice)
http://www.lassonde.com/en/contact/contact-form/

(taking a break, will do more later, or will add what others find)

Sony


El Jimador

Scott's Turf

Mark's

Part Source
customerservice@partsource.ca

Primo
website@primofoods.ca

Unico
consumer.services@unico.ca

Bacardi
http://www.bacardilimited.com/contact

PS4


Remax


Ontario Turkey
janet@turkeyfarmers.on.ca


Nestle
consumer.care@ca.nestle.com


Sokoloff Lawyers
marketing@sokoloff.ca


Sword
toronto@swordsecurity.com

All Weather Windows


toothworks
bayadelaide@toothworks.com


Warner Bros


concrobium
customerservicecdn@concrobium.com

icon

monte carlo inns
customerservice@montecarloinns.com

Retrocom reit
info@rmmreit.com


Mackie Trucking



Smoke's Poutinerie
smoke@smokespoutinerie.com


Nathan's hot dogs



Casino Rama



Shop.ca
support@shop.ca


407 etr



Unilever



University of Windsor

Warner Music

Zoocasa

Tyco security

IBEW 353

The Weather Network

Beat The Traffic.com

[GabrielHurl]

Just quickly googled there and the Canadian National team has played 19 games in 8 years at BMO.

1 x Mens U-20 team - 2007 World Cup
2 x Womens U-20 team
4 x Senior Womens team - all friendly games
12 x Senior Mens team - 7 of those were World Cup qualifiers and 5 were friendly games.

[Wagner]

As someone who has coached both Canadian and US football at a fairly high level, I can tell you your GUY at work as no ideal of what he is talking about

i follow football really closely.
and it is a fact that CFL teams are excited to scoop up NFL castoffs that were the 4th or 5th receiver, or on the practice squad.

[greatwhitenorf]

You know who MLSE will listen to when it comes to complaints?
Sponsors.

Let them know that you think it looks poorly on them if TFC appears bush league with lines on the pitch, and massive divots.

as we try to build a world class club (it will take time), set backs like this won't help.


if the partners hear enough about this, they'll complain to MLSE.

this is who will make them listen.
http://www.torontofc.ca/content/partners

BMO
feedback@bmo.com

Budweiser
@budCanada (twitter)



Kia
jsulymka@kia.ca

Canadian Tire
@canadiantire
investor.relations@cantire.com

Rogers (don't bother, they kicked the argos out)

PizzaPizza
feedback@pizzapizza.ca

Adidas
contactus@adidas.com

Coca-cola
mediacentre@coca-cola.ca

Toronto Star
sponsorships@thestar.ca

Cisco
still looking

Pioneer
info@pioneerfuels.ca

Tim Hortons
@timhortons (twitter)


Subway
@SubwayCanada (twitter)

SportChek
same as CanTire really

Purolator
can't find


Mastercard
still looking


intact insurance
info@intact.net

PokerStars
support@pokerstars.com

Expedia
canad@expedia.com

just energy
info@justenergy.com


Oasis (juice)
http://www.lassonde.com/en/contact/contact-form/

(taking a break, will do more later, or will add what others find)

Sony


El Jimador

Scott's Turf

Mark's

Part Source
customerservice@partsource.ca

Primo

Unico

Bacardi

PS4

Remax

Ontario Turkey

Nestle

Tottenham Hotspur

Sokoloff Lawyers

Sword

All Weather Windows

toothworks

Warner Bros

concrobium

icon

monte carlo inns

Retrocom reit

Mackie Trucking

Smoke's Poutinerie

Nathan's hot dogs

Casino Rama

Shop.ca

407 etr

Unilever

University of Windsor

Warner Music

Zoocasa

Tyco security

IBEW 353

The Weather Network

Beat The Traffic.com

Thank you. I'll be In Like Flint.

[greatwhitenorf]

And furthermore:

If this is true, then this will be the end of my season's tickets. I'm a year one supporter and have happily and patiently invested in the game despite the lack of a quality product.

More than that, I know the first order of business once I do return to the stadium will be to engage the community of fellow season ticket holders that sit around us in a full and frank discussion. Many of us are familiar after all these years and it's quite a nice group to sit with and talk soccer - and not just TFC either.

That's where the devil enters into the details for MLSE. I don't need TFC to get my soccer fix or fulfill my enjoyment of the game. I get it all during the European season following my teams in various leagues and Toronto gets my attention because this is my hometown. But this is truly discretionary spending and it's only been spent assuming that by supporting the club we'd see the parent firm continue to take the right steps to make things better.

While I give them full credit for trying in failed efforts with the likes of Defoe, Frings or, Christ, even John Bostock, they've maintained my faith in staying the course by bringing in Michael Bradley and now Jozy Altidore and putting a proper grass pitch down. But letting the Argos into BMO Field will be the end.

My discretionary summer spending will quickly go towards additional golf, fishing or boating, a few more Jays games, maybe even take in the F1 race in Montreal or a NASCAR race or two in Michigan, Indy, Chicago or New Hampshire. But when I make my break with TFC, it will be with malice and aforethought and for good.

I will be deeply pissed that the club thinks so little of our(fans') appreciation for the game's nuances that they put the financial peanuts that the Argos will bring ahead of the long-term benefits of keeping the stadium strictly for soccer.

Not only will I be deeply pissed, I know my neighbours in our section won't be happy either. We've had this discussion many times.

All TFC fans who care about the future of the club and the game's professional development need to have these discussions with their friends and neighbours who attend TFC games. This is a motherhood issue and the Argos potential presence represents an absolute disrespect for what we fans have delivered over the years.

[pdubs]

Very curious how this will be sold. TL has said before our game-day quality will not be effected. Most examples shown in this thread say otherwise.

[TFC07]

Well said greatwhitenorf.

I personally will be done with TFC (pretty much all of MLSE teams) and stop attending other soccer events at BMO field if Argos come in and mess up turf while ruin my soccer experience. I am soccer guy who can get my soccer fix else where soccer is respected not treated like second class sport like we see in Toronto (by Toronto politicians to Bay street types like MLSE) despite how popular soccer is for common man in this region (or at least my part of GTA).

[TFC07]

Very curious how this will be sold. TL has said before our game-day quality will not be effected. Most examples shown in this thread say otherwise.

It doesn't matter since Tim Lewieke is gone in couple of months back to America. lol

It will MLSE and whoever they hire to run their teams mess to deal with.

[Qman]

i follow football really closely.
and it is a fact that CFL teams are excited to scoop up NFL castoffs that were the 4th or 5th receiver, or on the practice squad.

like when MLS is so excited to get castoffs from Premiership, turkish league and even mexico. MLS isn't even at top 20 league ... so why are you using that argument.

Just be happy in what we have here. MLSE is covering big losses here and spending $$$. All the games are on TV, even though the rating don't justify it. Stadium has a great atmosphere and they are spending big $$$ to upgrade it.

[pdubs]

It doesn't matter since Tim Lewieke is gone in couple of months back to America. lol

It will MLSE and whoever they hire to run their teams mess to deal with.

Yea forgot about that. Then as greatwhitenorf pointed out, ill get my soccer fix with all the options in Europe. Most evidence points to this being a disaster on the field or at a minimum and inferior field product. If they go through with this should we give them our ear's when they try and sell it to us? I am repeating myself but current evidence suggest no paint technology or field surface really will hold up in the real world even with "3 days between games". Just a sad state of affairs.

[Beach_Red]

The thing is, even if they are operating on the idea that "more money = good" no matter what, it becomes a matter of whether money now from the Argos, could diminish the potential return on their investment from TFC down the line.

And is taking that risk worth it, for whatever "drop in the bucket" (to borrow the popular vernacular people always use when talking about MLSE spending a few million bucks) the Argos will toss MLSE's way most years? They're a corporation worth over a billion dollars, who presumably plan to own TFC for decades, and want to see that "investment" flourish.

Especially when they are wantonly dropping millions on designated players?

Yeah, I agree with you but MLSE (and the parent companies) do have a history of bird in the hand, so to speak. Sure, they may own TFC for decades and MLS may become the new NFL someday. But it's all about the next quarter, isn't it. Of course, I'm a little bitter because of they way they mismanaged the TV networks and Canadian productions (which require development) in favour of buying US shows (already developed by someone else). So, they make a little money off the Argos (and CFL TV revenue) now and when MLS really does take off they can make changes then. It's not the way any of us would do it but it's not out of character for these companies.

[greatwhitenorf]

Thanks, TFC07,

After many years of earning a livelihood around the sports industry, I know that in the very, very short term, we might not see an appreciable difference. If the Argos come in, you can bet that massive efforts will be made to try to mollify concerned fans like ourselves by gussying up the pitch to look right. But experience tells me that we'll see the quality of our game wither in small but steady increments.

We'll be nibbled to death by ducks.

I don't have any faith that there is a good outcome in sharing this stadium with a CFL team. And the Argos aren't even a typical CFL team. They're pathetic.

This whole process is not worth investing one iota of energy into once the Argos come in. You want the Argos at BMO Field? Great. You can't have me anymore supporting what I know will be a tainted soccer product. And if I'm wrong, too late. I'll be on the back nine somewhere trying to choose between a wedge and a nine iron. Or at the Forks of the Credit mulling a Mepps or a bag of roe. But I won't be at BMO Field because the faith and trust and the money I've placed thus far in the club clearly wasn't good enough.

[greatwhitenorf]

like when MLS is so excited to get castoffs from Premiership, turkish league and even mexico. MLS isn't even at top 20 league ... so why are you using that argument.

Just be happy in what we have here. MLSE is covering big losses here and spending $$$. All the games are on TV, even though the rating don't justify it. Stadium has a great atmosphere and they are spending big $$$ to upgrade it.

And TFC players shouldn't have to wear Wellingtons.

[Beach_Red]

Well said greatwhitenorf.

I personally will be done with TFC (pretty much all of MLSE teams) and stop attending other soccer events at BMO field if Argos come in and mess up turf while ruin my soccer experience. I am soccer guy who can get my soccer fix else where soccer is respected not treated like second class sport like we see in Toronto (by Toronto politicians to Bay street types like MLSE) despite how popular soccer is for common man in this region (or at least my part of GTA).

Is any of this really a surprise? TFC was something that fell into MLSE's lap, they didn't go out and seek a soccer a team for Toronto, they weren't a founding member of MLS. Then, MLSE was taken over by media companies that have zero interest in creating their own content, they are really only providers. They will be perfectly happy to supply you with European games on their TV networks and not have to deal with the hassle of trying to run a team (which they have certainly shown themselves to be not very good at).

[TFC07]

Thanks, TFC07,

After many years of earning a livelihood around the sports industry, I know that in the very, very short term, we might not see an appreciable difference. If the Argos come in, you can bet that massive efforts will be made to try to mollify concerned fans like ourselves by gussying up the pitch to look right. But experience tells me that we'll see the quality of our game wither in small but steady increments.

We'll be nibbled to death by ducks.

I don't have any faith that there is a good outcome in sharing this stadium with a CFL team. And the Argos aren't even a typical CFL team. They're pathetic.

This whole process is not worth investing one iota of energy into once the Argos come in. You want the Argos at BMO Field? Great. You can't have me anymore supporting what I know will be a tainted soccer product. And if I'm wrong, too late. I'll be on the back nine somewhere trying to choose between a wedge and a nine iron. Or at the Forks of the Credit mulling a Mepps or a bag of roe. But I won't be at BMO Field because the faith and trust and the money I've placed thus far in the club clearly wasn't good enough.

Agreed.

I know we got people calling their ticket rep while others are trying to email TFC sponsors, but I personally think it's a waste of time and energy in the end. I am not going to bother calling my ticket rep (I don't even know who my ticket rep is now). I will quietly cancel my season tickets in the end of this season unless MLSE approach me and convince to me stay (they got one major selling job to do if they want me to stay with them).

[greatwhitenorf]

You're right, Beach Red. Look at where the Argos are and TSN owned them.

[TFC07]

Is any of this really a surprise? TFC was something that fell into MLSE's lap, they didn't go out and seek a soccer a team for Toronto, they weren't a founding member of MLS. Then, MLSE was taken over by media companies that have zero interest in creating their own content, they are really only providers. They will be perfectly happy to supply you with European games on their TV networks and not have to deal with the hassle of trying to run a team (which they have certainly shown themselves to be not very good at).

Here's the thing, I am planning to get rid of cable soon and just watch my shows and sports online. So I don't have to pay them any money where I can get my soccer fix online from overseas provider (both legal and illegally) while go to a soccer game or two overseas since I will be saving a lot of money now by not buying season tickets, transportation to go to BMO field and other expenses like food and beer.

[king10]

Well said greatwhitenorf.

I personally will be done with TFC (pretty much all of MLSE teams) and stop attending other soccer events at BMO field if Argos come in and mess up turf while ruin my soccer experience. I am soccer guy who can get my soccer fix else where soccer is respected not treated like second class sport like we see in Toronto (by Toronto politicians to Bay street types like MLSE) despite how popular soccer is for common man in this region (or at least my part of GTA).

I'll never stop supporting the mens national team when they play at BMO field. It's not the players' fault the argos play there. They shouldn't be punished with lack of support. Im a proud canadian and will be there supporting the national team no matter who else plays in the stadium. I hope the majority of others feel the same way. If not our "home games" will go back to being dominated by the away teams fans, and that would be a real shame.

Who else plays in the stadium shouldn't get in the way of national pride and in person support IMO.

[TFC07]

I'll never stop supporting the mens national team when they play at BMO field. It's not the players' fault the argos play there. They shouldn't be punished with lack of support. Im a proud canadian and will be there supporting the national team no matter who else plays in the stadium. I hope the majority of others feel the same way. If not our "home games" will go back to being dominated by the away teams fans, and that would be a real shame.

Who else plays in the stadium shouldn't get in the way of national pride and in person support IMO.

Don't be surprise to see Men's team playing in Montreal for now. I am sure they don't want to play on football lines and bumpy turf.

So I guess I will be making a lot of trips to Montreal in the near future.

Remember that MLSE gets money from Men's national games played at BMO field as well. So I am trying to avoid spending my money that will go directly to ML$E.

[greatwhitenorf]

Agreed.

I know we got people calling their ticket rep while others are trying to email TFC sponsors, but I personally think it's a waste of time and energy in the end. I am not going to bother calling my ticket rep (I don't even know who my ticket rep is now). I will quietly cancel my season tickets in the end of this season unless MLSE approach me and convince to me stay (they got one major selling job to do if they want me to stay with them).

I started to give my ticket rep the hair dryer treatment and had to stop.

I think he was starting to cry.

They go through staff in there like shit through a goose, so none of them really have any feel for what we say. My rep said to send in an email.

[bones]

I know ML$E's mandate as a business is to extract as much money from us as possible (sell outs drove prices up 43% before the backlash, beer prices through the roof, crazy priced clothing with the team logo) but milking more cash by having a CFL team is just getting ridiculous.

For me, as I have stated in other areas, I will be done with TFC and probably all ML$E teams. I've owned TFC seasons since day 1 and Raptors seasons for 6 years. Slowly but surely ML$E are ruining all local sports for me. And it's not because of the Argos specifically, I've hated them for 30+ years being a Ti-Cat fan. I'm just so sick and tired of being treated in this way. They don't care about the passionate core, they care about those that make up the top 80% of revenue. I understand as a business you always go for that top 80% but sports isn't a regular business. I guess having a license to print money for 30 years with the Leafs really has them running our teams as pure business'. So sad.

[Beach_Red]

Here's the thing, I am planning to get rid of cable soon and just watch my shows and sports online. So I don't have to pay them any money where I can get my soccer fix online from overseas provider (both legal and illegally) while go to a soccer game or two overseas since I will be saving a lot of money now by not buying season tickets, transportation to go to BMO field and other expenses like food and beer.

Well, they can't account for the illegal but anything you get legally Bell or Rogers gets something, it's all their infrastructure.

I really wish wish there was one other company interested in owning sports teams in this city.

As for MLS there was always this danger on the horizon. There really are two groups of fans - some will be turned off by this and others don't care. Together the two groups may be big enough to make MLS a real major league in North America, but those two groups were never going to be together, were they?

[king10]

Don't be surprise to see Men's team playing in Montreal for now. I am sure they don't want to play on football lines and bumpy turf.

So I guess I will be making a lot of trips to Montreal in the near future.

Remember that MLSE gets money from Men's national games played at BMO field as well. So I am trying to avoid spending my money that will go directly to ML$E.

now you're grasping at straws saying you're already planning to drive up to MTL for MNT games lol. the CSA has a sweetheart deal where they get a large amount of revenue from games at BMO. They aren't going to go to montreal full time with no revenue agreement in place. Not to mention the CSA has built up a large amount of MNT support in the GTA which it doesn't have in other cities. You're already assuming the field is going to be a disaster and the MNT will leave. I think you're over reacting. The quality of Saputos field is nothing to write home about. No undersoil heating. You're already planning to make trips to MTL to support the national team when theres no indication whatsoever soccer canada is going to jump ship from BMO. Take some time to let the dust settle. I dont see the MNT going to MTL.

And yes MLSE gets a percentage of revenue from MNT games at BMO. But sorry thats not going to stop me from supporting my national team. For me its not about MLSE getting 15% of my MNT ticket. Its about my passion to support my country in the worlds game. Make of it what you want. I'm not going to let some corporation get in the way of me and supporting my country. Again, the MNT players did nothing to warrant us abandoning in person support of them in toronto.

[GabrielHurl]

And TFC players shouldn't have to wear Wellingtons.

[JavierMartini]

if they put turf in at bmo again i'm done.

[Cashcleaner]

The assumption is that if MLSE owned the Argos, they would have more incentive to accommodate them.

While it's true that MLSE will make some money off the Argos as tenants for 9 dates per year (plus playoffs), it's less clear whether that money is worth the tradeoff of whatever the impact is on the team they DO currently own, which has a million times the future growth potential for them, than a CFL team does.

If they don't own the team, then the Argos are just another date in the event calendar - except they're an event that requires extensive stadium retrofitting, potential damage to their expensive soccer pitch, and a compromising of the experience for the fans of the team they actually own.

I don't think the calculus is (or at least, should be) a simple "more money = good" axiom.

And that's really the key issue. Yes, MLSE is going to generate revenue with those extra CFL games every year, but is it really going to make them a profit in the long run if people start dropping their TFC season tickets or if turf and other property issues become too expensive to maintain? There's quite a bit of risk involved when you consider all that.