Argos to BMO decision - Wednesday, May 20th

[Fort York Redcoat]

This isn't about being a fan. It's about business.

The CFL in Toronto is not business. It's not even charity any more. It's a pathetic, perpetual pity fuck.

It's only going to be worse next season when current season ticket holders keep their money in their wallets.

And for this, we had to see BMO Field butchered into a half-assed mish-mash of a stadium. Get the Argos out, get the north end rebuilt, turn this stadium into a fully focused home for soccer and get a properly productive, progressive and profitable program underway.

Do you have a problem with that?

I have no problem with the Argos out of BMO.

I see a problem with your NFL bias shining through when there are so many pro sport examples of propped up teams in NA leagues that use profit share.

2 Atlanta hockey teams in our lifetimes.
and to use your fav gridiron league Arizona and Phoenix (I don't follow - where are the Cards now?)

Your doomsday predicting doesn't make it so with so many obstacles in dollars in the way for your NFL Argos dream to come true.

Not that this is the place that would change public perception and finally doom the Argos anyway...

[OgtheDim]

The Chicago Cardinals are still in Phoenix. Thankfully for Illinois NFL fans, the Decatur Staley's are now named the Bears and play in Chicago.

The Cardinals are, tangentially, mentioned higher up in this thread as an example of how to do two different types of fields for one stadium. I am told that is not why they moved out of Chicago.

The Cleveland Rams have now moved to LA again, scotching the opportunity for the Oakland Raiders to go back to their second home in LA and for the Los Angeles Chargers to return to their first home. Apparently this will unseat some hockey moves to the place CSI was before the guy with the glasses removing bit got going but I don't really follow that game or watch network TV anymore so....

[Wally]

Any casual observer of sports can see that the Argos demographic skews to the older individuals. Furthermore there appears to be more of a fan base outside of Toronto (905 region) than within the downtown core. And yet Bell decided to take ownership of the team and begin marketing specifically to Liberty Village (usually through Kate Beirness making the rounds). Problem with this logic is that Liberty Village is dried up and it predominantly TFC fans who don't care about the Argos. So Bell is advertising to a group of individuals who OPPOSE the team.

But what about TV numbers? Well I ask, what is the demographic of individuals who own a PPM box? Are they 20-something year olds getting together for some brewskies thinking: "I'm looking forward to having my viewing habits tracked" while they all drink booze out of dixie cups. No, that doesn't happen anywhere ever. Yet there is this bizarre believe from Bell thinking they can actually tap that market by bombarding their channels with CFL. Look, I'm no mathemaholic but if a team is doing poorly in a city, and its generating no interest from the younger crowd, and the older crowd is dwindling (based on ticket numbers), why is the team here at all? It just seems like bad business.

As a fan of most sports, I'm not opposed to the Argos playing at BMO at all. But when they bitch and moan about the Rogers Centre then spew rhetoric that BMO will re-invigorate the franchise then produce 12k fans a game...something is wrong. If the Argos moved to BMO and had 25k fans per game, this thread would be dead long time ago and nobody would have an argument to make. Yet here we are...

What team in any sports in the history of time, moves to a new stadium and doesn't sell out at least 1 game?

[greatwhitenorf]

I have no problem with the Argos out of BMO.

I see a problem with your NFL bias shining through when there are so many pro sport examples of propped up teams in NA leagues that use profit share.

2 Atlanta hockey teams in our lifetimes.
and to use your fav gridiron league Arizona and Phoenix (I don't follow - where are the Cards now?)

Your doomsday predicting doesn't make it so with so many obstacles in dollars in the way for your NFL Argos dream to come true.

Not that this is the place that would change public perception and finally doom the Argos anyway...

Don't brand me a NFL fan. I enjoy the game, but I'm no fanatic. Only been to a handful of games in my life.

I have brought up points about how the NFL has involved Larry Tanenbaum and Assoc.'s to manipulate certain circumstances. No one could seriously believe that the very wealthy, influential and successful individuals involved in that group would just frivolously waste their time and energy putting in a spurious bid for a NFL franchise.

So, what's the motive for undertaking such an effort?

Think about that point and look at how this first season with the Argonauts at BMO has gone. Disaster doesn't do it justice.

The common assumption about operating the Argos is that an owner would lose 'X' amount of dollars annually, but make it all back by hosting the Grey Cup with sufficient frequency. That was David Braley's modus operandi in recent years. There's no evidence to indicate that this pattern would ever change in the foreseeable future, even with the Argos at BMO Field.

Can you seriously believe for an instant that this is the way Larry Tanenbaum works? He didn't become a wealthy and successful man by merely breaking even.

Now think about the likelihood that the Argonauts situation only gets worse in years to come. Because they are giving away bushels of tickets right now and no one is showing up. They're the Mississauga St. Michael's Majors in cleats.

How can that situation be acceptable if there isn't another - much larger - foot to fall in this deal?

[Fort York Redcoat]

Don't brand me a NFL fan. I enjoy the game, but I'm no fanatic. Only been to a handful of games in my life.

I have brought up points about how the NFL has involved Larry Tanenbaum and Assoc.'s to manipulate certain circumstances. No one could seriously believe that the very wealthy, influential and successful individuals involved in that group would just frivolously waste their time and energy putting in a spurious bid for a NFL franchise.

So, what's the motive for undertaking such an effort?

Think about that point and look at how this first season with the Argonauts at BMO has gone. Disaster doesn't do it justice.

The common assumption about operating the Argos is that an owner would lose 'X' amount of dollars annually, but make it all back by hosting the Grey Cup with sufficient frequency. That was David Braley's modus operandi in recent years. There's no evidence to indicate that this pattern would ever change in the foreseeable future, even with the Argos at BMO Field.

Can you seriously believe for an instant that this is the way Larry Tanenbaum works? He didn't become a wealthy and successful man by merely breaking even.

Now think about the likelihood that the Argonauts situation only gets worse in years to come. Because they are giving away bushels of tickets right now and no one is showing up. They're the Mississauga St. Michael's Majors in cleats.

How can that situation be acceptable if there isn't another - much larger - foot to fall in this deal?

Sherwood Schwartz.

I know how bad you want them to fail but it takes so many seasons in a regular league. The CFL is not that. The Argos are not Chivas USA. They've had a season where they averaged just over 11-12k in Skydome. That ownership took years to change.

You look at this first season as the camels fated straw. The fact that they are tied into other sports team owners now says different. It'll take years.

And fan is short for fanatic.

[SoccMan2]

I hope the Argos fail and get out of BMO could not care less about this team and all their history the sooner they fail the better for me , however, I know they will be getting bailed out over and over again , if it was TFC no one would come to bail them out, no politician would fight for their survival, but the Argos a totally different story unfortunately.

[Richard]

I hope the Argos fail and get out of BMO could not care less about this team and all their history the sooner they fail the better for me , however, I know they will be getting bailed out over and over again , if it was TFC no one would come to bail them out, no politician would fight for their survival, but the Argos a totally different story unfortunately.

I'm not sure how much pull David Miller has these days but TFC got some pretty good backing since its inception.

[Pookie]

I hope the Argos fail and get out of BMO could not care less about this team and all their history the sooner they fail the better for me , however, I know they will be getting bailed out over and over again , if it was TFC no one would come to bail them out, no politician would fight for their survival, but the Argos a totally different story unfortunately.

I don't know if you are joking or just don't understand the way MLS works.

By "bailing out TFC" if they were in trouble do you mean having someone:

- paying all player salaries centrally through league funds (minus DPs)
- paying travel costs and other team expenses
- negotiating contracts
- floating "allocation money" to enable a team in a bigger market to be more competitive than rivals
- participating in league wide revenue sharing
- having a share in SUM in order to share revenue associated with big draw US-Mexico events

?

MLS does that for all its teams right now. As it is, TFC only gets in trouble if MLS gets in trouble. MLSE doesn't actually own TFC. They operate them and what they actually own is a share in MLS.

It's a great structure to build a business. Now it's not as great for player rights and the transparency issues around competition but it is what we have.

So no, TFC would likely not get a "bail out" like other teams do because it operates in a league that is unlike other leagues. MLS has put a structure in place that props up all of its teams and enables them to remain financially and competitively viable.

Now, one assumption in my reply is that I am assuming by bail out you mean right now or in the future. Not the gift of a fully funded free stadium with taxpayer dollars that is the subject of the thread right?

[KurtLarSUN]

Argos attendance should be interesting today. Thanksgiving. Long weekend. According to Ticketmaster, very few tickets sold in the West Deck and the Endzone.

[Pookie]

^ Toronto team with a losing record after years of front office abandonment struggling at the gate? Hardly a headline there.

But I am sure there will be a count posted that will be inconsequential to the ground share.

[KurtLarSUN]

^ Toronto team with a losing record after years of front office abandonment struggling at the gate? Hardly a headline there.

But I am sure there will be a count posted that will be inconsequential to the ground share.

Hardly a headline? Completely wrong. If they ever had a sub-10,000 game it would be a top story with the Jays off.
Heck, it already was a top story once this season when they got 12,000 out.
Most people (yourself excluded) love to analyze attendance. We saw it often during the WCOH, too.

[PAOK17]

I don't know if you are joking or just don't understand the way MLS works.

By "bailing out TFC" if they were in trouble do you mean having someone:

- paying all player salaries centrally through league funds (minus DPs)
- paying travel costs and other team expenses
- negotiating contracts
- floating "allocation money" to enable a team in a bigger market to be more competitive than rivals
- participating in league wide revenue sharing
- having a share in SUM in order to share revenue associated with big draw US-Mexico events

?

MLS does that for all its teams right now. As it is, TFC only gets in trouble if MLS gets in trouble. MLSE doesn't actually own TFC. They operate them and what they actually own is a share in MLS.

It's a great structure to build a business. Now it's not as great for player rights and the transparency issues around competition but it is what we have.

So no, TFC would likely not get a "bail out" like other teams do because it operates in a league that is unlike other leagues. MLS has put a structure in place that props up all of its teams and enables them to remain financially and competitively viable.

Now, one assumption in my reply is that I am assuming by bail out you mean right now or in the future. Not the gift of a fully funded free stadium with taxpayer dollars that is the subject of the thread right?

Pookie, I really hope you're not doing that whole misleading exaggeration thing you do when referring to numbers, without stats, are you? I've seen you refer to this stadium as fully paid by taxes a few times.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMO_Field

The original cost of bmo was 62.9 million. 72.8 million if you include an approx 10 million valuation of the property (which is still owned by the city, right?). According to the link, the three governments paid 44.8 million of the 62.9. The rest was MLSE.

Furthermore MLSE paid for the grass and minor renos like north stand. Finally for the last renovation, I see it was said to be somewhere 120 to 150 million? Couldn't find the definite number in there. But we know that we only got about 20 million from government and MLSE took care of overruns. So it's safe to say that MLSE paid for at least half (if not significantly more) of the total cost of the stadium.

Not saying it's right to have public to pay for stadiums, just saying the public didn't pay anywhere close to the total cost of this one, as you keep saying here.

[Pookie]

Hardly a headline? Completely wrong. If they ever had a sub-10,000 game it would be a top story with the Jays off.
Heck, it already was a top story once this season when they got 12,000 out.
Most people (yourself excluded) love to analyze attendance. We saw it often during the WCOH, too.

Are you going to analyze ratings too? That would give the full picture no?

[Pookie]

Pookie, I really hope you're not doing that whole misleading exaggeration thing you do when referring to numbers, without stats, are you? I've seen you refer to this stadium as fully paid by taxes a few times.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMO_Field

The original cost of bmo was 62.9 million. 72.8 million if you include an approx 10 million valuation of the property (which is still owned by the city, right?). According to the link, the three governments paid 44.8 million of the 62.9. The rest was MLSE.

Furthermore MLSE paid for the grass and minor renos like north stand. Finally for the last renovation, I see it was said to be somewhere 120 to 150 million? Couldn't find the definite number in there. But we know that we only got about 20 million from government and MLSE took care of overruns. So it's safe to say that MLSE paid for at least half (if not significantly more) of the total cost of the stadium.

Not saying it's right to have public to pay for stadiums, just saying the public didn't pay anywhere close to the total cost of this one, as you keep saying here.

The original BMO is clearly a public funding exercise however we want to count the naming rights contributions. There would be no multiuse stadium without you and I paying for it.

Fair point on the renovations and grass. Lots of MLSE money went into it, particularly the renovation.

Though let's not misremember the fact that Tim Leiweke started talking about the renos with the words Grey Cups and Hockey. The renos served a business purpose and Toronto will be hosting those over the next decade. That investment clearly has ROI tied to events beyond MLS.

[OgtheDim]

The groundshare exists because the Argos had no other option for this season and no willingness to invest in a stadium somewhere else. That city officials were gung ho about this was useful for the Argos but not necessary for the deal to get done.

I suspect most discussion on here about Argo attendance is a latent response to being told by many that the Argos would sell out and BMO would soon become a CFL focused facility.


However, whether the Argos continue to stay at BMO is VERY dependent upon attendance. The Argos have 5 years to turn this around before the investment of playing at BMO is no longer worth it. IF Argo attendance remains as it is, the revenue from TV is not enough to justify the expense.

We'll know the ground share will be ending when media begin to hear serious discussions of "well its hard for our fans to get here". If we hear that in 3 years, we know the Argos are leaving. Options at that point would be Downsview (MLSE has first dibs on a stadium there), the 905 or York.

The non Argo variables in all this are

• Continued Bogers involvement in MLSE
• The state of the CFL TSN contract
• How much growth occurs with TFC

[sn0re]

Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/olearychris/status/785602870984998912

I thought there would be more considering it's long weekend. Incredible.

[Blizzard]

Check out this tweet at https://twitter.com/olearychris/status/785602870984998912

I thought there would be more considering it's long weekend. Incredible.

Long weekends generally hurt attendances as people go out of town and add to this the fact that today is Thanksgiving with many families spending quality time together, this number does not surprise me at all.

[redcard]

Are you going to analyze ratings too? That would give the full picture no?

I would love to see the ratings for the Argos specifically from the 416 area. Even just the Ontario numbers for the Argos would be an eye opener...I think if would change your tune a bit as well.

[Wally]

I would love to see the ratings for the Argos specifically from the 416 area. Even just the Ontario numbers for the Argos would be an eye opener...I think if would change your tune a bit as well.

I truly believe that the same 300-500k people make up ratings for every game. Likely people out west where Football is the only "professional" game they see.

Agree with you that seeing 416 ratings would be interesting.

[Pookie]

I would love to see the ratings for the Argos specifically from the 416 area. Even just the Ontario numbers for the Argos would be an eye opener...I think if would change your tune a bit as well.

It would be interesting indeed. Closest we have is when Toronto plays Hamilton as we can safely assume that a good percentage of viewers are from one or the other market.

Do you consider it an eye opener that TFCs first playoff game ever drew over 500k in viewers on TSN and RDS combined?

But over 60% of that number came from French language RDS meaning that more Impact fans were interested in the game than fans from here?

It's funny really. I'm not saying anything against either team. I don't think wanting career opportunities for Canadian athletes is a bad thing. And I don't think it's mutually exclusive.

Both teams struggle for relevancy and that translates into relatively low paying jobs for Canadian athletes who choose to stick with either sport.

I find the cheering for a train wreck to be quite sad actually.

Particularly when a lot of it eminates from a claim of ownership over a publicly funded facility that was always about shared use.

[SoccMan2]

So BMO is a tax funded stadium so the Argos have every right to be there, so was the SkyDome as I have said before also built for the Argos for a crazy amount of money compared to BMO and yet the Argos are no longer at the SkyDome. As another poster stated we like discussing Argo attendance because of how their people and fans kept stating that the Argos would do incredibly well at BMO from day one and that BMO would make the Argos relevant again in Toronto and none of this has happened so far not even close, their attendance has actually been worse at BMO, so this is why we keep bringing up Argo attendance on here, and I'm loving it.

[greatwhitenorf]

Long weekends generally hurt attendances as people go out of town and add to this the fact that today is Thanksgiving with many families spending quality time together, this number does not surprise me at all.

Ha ha ha. Just killed Blue Jays attendance yesterday evening, dinnit?

From first-hand accounts at BMO Field. All of 8 suites occupied today, not even 10,000 thru the turnstiles. And this with a massive freebie promotion during the days before the game. Road kill doesn't smell as bad as this franchise, but certainly looks more appetizing.

Won't be long now before some fucquewit comes along to tell us about massive TV ratings for the game. What a spectacle to put on national TV. What a way to sell the Grey Cup.

Even funnier was watching Schultzie, Dunnie and Steegz throwing half-time tantrums about Argos and their management. That's your bosses toy you're ripping on, boys.

[greatwhitenorf]

So BMO is a tax funded stadium so the Argos have every right to be there, so was the SkyDome as I have said before also built for the Argos for a crazy amount of money compared to BMO and yet the Argos are no longer at the SkyDome. As another poster stated we like discussing Argo attendance because of how their people and fans kept stating that the Argos would do incredibly well at BMO from day one and that BMO would make the Argos relevant again in Toronto and none of this has happened so far not even close, their attendance has actually been worse at BMO, so this is why we keep bringing up Argo attendance on here, and I'm loving it.

I would have thought your first source of motivation would have been the Argos two bankruptcies and the subsequent covert financing of the team by David Braley while Cynamon and Sokolowski were publicly presented as owners.

[Pookie]

So BMO is a tax funded stadium so the Argos have every right to be there, so was the SkyDome as I have said before also built for the Argos for a crazy amount of money compared to BMO and yet the Argos are no longer at the SkyDome. As another poster stated we like discussing Argo attendance because of how their people and fans kept stating that the Argos would do incredibly well at BMO from day one and that BMO would make the Argos relevant again in Toronto and none of this has happened so far not even close, their attendance has actually been worse at BMO, so this is why we keep bringing up Argo attendance on here, and I'm loving it.

^ well I think cheering for the demise of Canadian athletic careers is a little sad but have at it if you have a grudge with some Argos fans.

As for attendance, I don't find it shocking that a team that is likely to miss the playoffs in a 9 team league ... which is pretty pathetic... and is 2-6 at home, is having trouble drawing at the gate. Particularly in Toronto.

A little perspective perhaps? Jays averaged 18k per game just 6 years ago. Their season attendance was well below the AL average for 14 straight seasons prior to 2014. Kids weren't playing baseball. Not even sure high schools had teams. Then they won.

Toronto loves a bandwagon.

[Pookie]

Ha ha ha. Just killed Blue Jays attendance yesterday evening, dinnit?

From first-hand accounts at BMO Field. All of 8 suites occupied today, not even 10,000 thru the turnstiles. And this with a massive freebie promotion during the days before the game. Road kill doesn't smell as bad as this franchise, but certainly looks more appetizing.

Won't be long now before some fucquewit comes along to tell us about massive TV ratings for the game. What a spectacle to put on national TV. What a way to sell the Grey Cup.

Even funnier was watching Schultzie, Dunnie and Steegz throwing half-time tantrums about Argos and their management. That's your bosses toy you're ripping on, boys.

You watched that crap? Chris Zelcovich is right. Top 25 regardless of performance. Canadians love their football.

[greatwhitenorf]

You watched that crap? Chris Zelcovich is right. Top 25 regardless of performance. Canadians love their football.

[Oldtimer]

As for attendance, I don't find it shocking that a team that is likely to miss the playoffs in a 9 team league ... which is pretty pathetic... and is 2-6 at home, is having trouble drawing at the gate. Particularly in Toronto.

Argos won the Grey Cup only 4 years ago... it's not due to their record that they are irrelevant.

I was at city hall when they celebrated that win afterwards. The size of the crowd was pathetic, simply pathetic. It highlighted to me how few Argos fans there are compared to say Edmonton Eskimos fans in Edmonton.

Pretty much the market is older guys like from my generation and older, who prefer to watch from their couch rather than show up to a game, or even a Grey Cup party.

There's always excuses for Argos attendance. Last year it was issues with Rogers Centre. This year at BMO it's too hot, too cold, too Sunny, too rainy, too much traffic, there are concerts on, etc. Eventually the excuses run out.

[redcard]

Pook the point is that a packed stadium makes more of a impact to people wanting to come out and watch, than finding out how many folks watch the league/game on tv and handing out freebies does not create the interest...in fact it makes seems as though its a garbage product that no one wants to pay to watch.

Fact is the Argos were waving their flag that they will easily sell 20K Season tickets, was a laugh...and it is proving that they will fail in the 416...I dont want them to fail (i think they should move out of BMO), but fact is they are failing in this city...its time to refocus and relocate to a market that will support them and where a team is wanted, ie out east.

Since you love speaking of MLS ratings, how about you try and get some real rating numbers for an Argos' games from the 416. I am sure they (TSN) wont release the numbers because it will affect their sponsorship monies and end the gravy train for the CFL (i am sure most of that money comes from the east and not from out west)

For gods sake I remember the first season for TFC when we had to hide the tailgating experience from the cops...but for the Argos everyone bends over backwards for an unwanted team and have the laws changed to accommodate a form of legal tailgating...Lets be honest we (except for you) are enjoying their misery

[greatwhitenorf]

Penalty. Red Team.



Piling On. 15 Yards and Carry On.

[PAOK17]

The original BMO is clearly a public funding exercise however we want to count the naming rights contributions. There would be no multiuse stadium without you and I paying for it.

Fair point on the renovations and grass. Lots of MLSE money went into it, particularly the renovation.

Though let's not misremember the fact that Tim Leiweke started talking about the renos with the words Grey Cups and Hockey. The renos served a business purpose and Toronto will be hosting those over the next decade. That investment clearly has ROI tied to events beyond MLS.

Next time I suggest you rephrase your argument to not suggest that it is 100% funded by government funds when it is clearly not anywhere near that. You are misleading through use of hyperbole to make a point. MLSE still paid 18 million of 62 for the original construction. So it wasn't just grass and renovation.

I understand what you are saying regarding how without tax dollars there would be no stadium. That alone is enough to make your argument (which is a good one). You don't need to exaggerate as it leads to spread of misinformation. Let's leave that tactic to politicians, shall we?