Argos to BMO decision - Wednesday, May 20th

[glaze]

My understanding was that originally the Argos were in, then when it came time to put up some actual money, they balked and renewed their lease at the Dome.
Just as now, part of the delay it seems is trying to figure out who actually is going to pay for this Argos clause to be carried out.
It will be interesting to see how it plays out. I think Braley is the problem here. If he's not going to come to the plate with some money, he should sell the team.
But unfortunately it seems he is delusional on what they are actually worth.

[GabrielHurl]

My understanding was that originally the Argos were in, then when it came time to put up some actual money, they balked and renewed their lease at the Dome.

That was the York deal - not BMO

And it was U of T who were the ones who backed out of a Varsity Stadium deal - not MLSE or the Argos

Source - http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Football/C...04/700446.html

Braley is most definitely the biggest problem in a lot of peoples eyes (even though he has saved the CFL on a number of occasions by buying teams to stop them from folding).

He's owned the Tiger Cats, BC Lions, Argos at various times - hell he even owned the Whitecaps as well

[Canary10]

The thing I find amazing about this is that even though the Argos are truly screwed - as most people on both sides of the debate acknowledge, there isn't a political will or any real opportunity to build another 25,000 person stadium in Toronto and BMO is realistically the only option - Braley continues to play hardball. This guy has no leg to stand on. Yet he's waiting around for others to solve his problem and to, what, sweeten the deal for the Argos to come? As if they have to be enticed rather than the other way around? He should be out there saying to TFC supporters that they will do everything in their power to ensure the grass doesn't get ruined. He should be saying it's their priority too that the TFC experience doesn't get wrecked. He should be courting us. Instead he's playing hard to get with no cards in his hand. That pisses me off.

[Abou Sky]

I would bet that if the Argos do share BMO with TFC (something I personally would like to see) there would be 2-3 games where the grass is in less than ideal shape for soccer. That said, they were basically playing on top of a bog for the first couple of games last year so this isn't the end of the world.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I would bet that if the Argos do share BMO with TFC (something I personally would like to see) there would be 2-3 games where the grass is in less than ideal shape for soccer. That said, they were basically playing on top of a bog for the first couple of games last year so this isn't the end of the world.

I can't for the life of me understand how this will become acceptable to a footy-first fan.

2-3 games isn't a big deal? So we give mgmt an excuse when they miss the playoffs by 2-3 games? How many seasons has that happened already?

"It won't be that bad" is not acceptable to me. It doesn't have to be bad at all.

[OgtheDim]

The thing I find amazing about this is that even though the Argos are truly screwed - as most people on both sides of the debate acknowledge, there isn't a political will or any real opportunity to build another 25,000 person stadium in Toronto and BMO is realistically the only option - Braley continues to play hardball. This guy has no leg to stand on. Yet he's waiting around for others to solve his problem and to, what, sweeten the deal for the Argos to come? As if they have to be enticed rather than the other way around? He should be out there saying to TFC supporters that they will do everything in their power to ensure the grass doesn't get ruined. He should be saying it's their priority too that the TFC experience doesn't get wrecked. He should be courting us. Instead he's playing hard to get with no cards in his hand. That pisses me off.

He's waiting until he absolutely has to do something.

He's very patient.

So is MLSE. They don't need to have the Argos at BMO - it complicates their life. For them, if it happens, it happens and they will deal with the stuff involved. But they are not going to go out of their way to accommodate the Argos.

Meanwhile, the City and the Province and the Feds don't care about anything unless it affects them politically right now. 2017 is a long way away for them.

The crunch time for the Argos is late 2016 when additions to BMO to accommodate them have to be made.

Baring some party involved deciding that a decision now is of benefit to them now, nothing is going to happen until October of November 2016.


This talk of stuff being resolved by this summer is positioning, likely by Tannenbaum, who seems to be the biggest backer of this whole move.

[Canary10]

He's waiting until he absolutely has to do something.

He's very patient.

So is MLSE. They don't need to have the Argos at BMO - it complicates their life. For them, if it happens, it happens and they will deal with the stuff involved. But they are not going to go out of their way to accommodate the Argos.

Meanwhile, the City and the Province and the Feds don't care about anything unless it affects them politically right now. 2017 is a long way away for them.

The crunch time for the Argos is late 2016 when additions to BMO to accommodate them have to be made.

Baring some party involved deciding that a decision now is of benefit to them now, nothing is going to happen until October of November 2016.


This talk of stuff being resolved by this summer is positioning, likely by Tannenbaum, who seems to be the biggest backer of this whole move.

If I were MLSE I wouldn't be calling to set up a meeting.

[Mulder]

If I were MLSE I wouldn't be calling to set up a meeting.

Other than the fact the David Braley holds more cards in this play than MLSE does. The City ultimately let it come to that with that Argo Clause.

[Canary10]

Other than the fact the David Braley holds more cards in this play than MLSE does. The City ultimately let it come to that with that Argo Clause.

I've never seen the legal agreement so that's possible. But I don't think MLSE can be compelled to spend the $10 million. City says it won't. He thinks he has more cards than he does.

[Fort York Redcoat]

He's waiting until he absolutely has to do something.

He's very patient.

So is MLSE. They don't need to have the Argos at BMO - it complicates their life. For them, if it happens, it happens and they will deal with the stuff involved. But they are not going to go out of their way to accommodate the Argos.

Meanwhile, the City and the Province and the Feds don't care about anything unless it affects them politically right now. 2017 is a long way away for them.

The crunch time for the Argos is late 2016 when additions to BMO to accommodate them have to be made.

Baring some party involved deciding that a decision now is of benefit to them now, nothing is going to happen until October of November 2016.


This talk of stuff being resolved by this summer is positioning, likely by Tannenbaum, who seems to be the biggest backer of this whole move.

About the timing

http://bmofield.com/expansion/

Phase 2 includes canopies everywhere but the North by next season opener? How do they leave the Argos question unresolved with a roof and the South end specs decided?

I think this gets resolved by the end of this season and revealed or announced a day after renewal deadline. I'm sorry to say.

[GabrielHurl]

I've never seen the legal agreement so that's possible. But I don't think MLSE can be compelled to spend the $10 million. City says it won't. He thinks he has more cards than he does.

The City says it won't commit another $10million correct - but they have already approved their portion of the money required for the expansion.

Bear in mind they did this because they would have been on the hook for $30million worth of repairs that the stadium needs.

[GabrielHurl]

How do they leave the Argos question unresolved with a roof and the South end specs decided?

I think this gets resolved by the end of this season and revealed or announced a day after renewal deadline. I'm sorry to say.

Argos is Phase 3 - always has been

[Fort York Redcoat]

Argos is Phase 3 - always has been

Thanks Gab. I was looking for that when I found the other link.

This is why the language is confusing me. How does one put a roof over something and THEN reconfigure it?

[Canary10]

The City says it won't commit another $10million correct - but they have already approved their portion of the money required for the expansion.

Bear in mind they did this because they would have been on the hook for $30million worth of repairs that the stadium needs.

The $10 million they did approve was a loan. Worth remembering.

[Canary10]

Thanks Gab. I was looking for that when I found the other link.

This is why the language is confusing me. How does one put a roof over something and THEN reconfigure it?

Also they are building a whole new concourse in behind the south. It's obviously being done in away that the stands can slide back, but hard to picture it.

[Mulder]

Thanks Gab. I was looking for that when I found the other link.

This is why the language is confusing me. How does one put a roof over something and THEN reconfigure it?

Roof is being supported at the ends. I think this is the best picture showing what they are going to do. Easy to do the work underneath that.

[Mulder]

Here's a better example. No Middle support for the endzone roof. Easy to work underneath

[Canary10]

Here's a better example. No Middle support for the endzone roof. Easy to work underneath

They'd have to totally rebuild that stand eh?

[GabrielHurl]

Yeah - I think so unfortunately

You can see the concourse under construction here in Wagners pics. The rooms underneath the south end seats would have to go as well to allow retractable seating to slide under that concourse

[GabrielHurl]

And I don't want to be the one to say this - but if the retractable seating does go in - 112/113 and 117/118 will have to be reconfigured to a rectangular shape as I don't think there is a retractable seating system that works at an angle like that.

So there would essentially be 7 smaller sections in the south end

This example in Denmark has the same amount of rows as the current south end

[OgtheDim]

OK, lets get into this Argo Clause

This is the document that council approved in 2005

http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/2005/a...9rpt/cl036.pdf

The council discussion is outlined here starting at page 52. No mention of the Argos.

http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/2005/m...l/cc051026.pdf


The only thing that comes close to an Argo clause, and this was in from the beginning

20,000-seat stadium (capable of expansion to 30,000 seats and capable of conversion to a football format)

They did that. They built a stadium that is capable of conversion (the definition of capable of conversion is legally somewhat more flexible and is far more ambiguous then "OK people, lets spend the next 48 hours getting this ready for the Metro Bowl").

Nowhere in that document is there a single thing indicating that a football stadium is mandated by the city. Just that the stadium be built to be capable of a conversion to a football format.

Well, MLSE has provided a conversion option.

I'd like to see Braley try to take the city and MLSE to court over that phrase. I'm no lawyer, but that would be hard to prove.

So, how does Braley get a mandate demand that the city has to build an option for the Argos out of that?

Nah, the Argo move to BMO is being pushed cause people see it as an option. There is no hammer here to force the city to do anything.

i.e. Braley has no leverage based on a legal document but he does have a moral suasion and sentiment argument that persuades pols. Whether he wants to spend any money doing this is another matter.

[Mulder]

They'd have to totally rebuild that stand eh?

Building that upper concourse on the south side is kind of a preemptive move to allow for access to the south side seats when the telescopic seating is install.

Also, looking at the beams and columns, they are way bigger than the ones on the east side stands. They have certainly planned for phase 3 expansion temporary to 40,000 for big events (Winter Classic, etc)

It also seems if those that provision is being build into phase 1. (on the south side at least)

[Canary10]

Building that upper concourse on the south side is kind of a preemptive move to allow for access to the south side seats when the telescopic seating is install.

Also, looking at the beams and columns, they are way bigger than the ones on the east side stands. They have certainly planned for phase 3 expansion temporary to 40,000 for big events (Winter Classic, etc)

It also seems if those that provision is being build into phase 1. (on the south side at least)

Yeah, I can see that. I was running past it last night and trying to figure out how they'd do it. Makes sense that it all slides under the concourse.

[Mulder]

And I don't want to be the one to say this - but if the retractable seating does go in - 112/113 and 117/118 will have to be reconfigured to a rectangular shape as I don't think there is a retractable seating system that works at an angle like that.

So there would essentially be 7 smaller sections in the south end

This example in Denmark has the same amount of rows as the current south end

Na, they can do telescopic seating on an angle. ACC is an example of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQQS8isxt9E (about 1m in you can see the bottom right side folded up)

[GabrielHurl]

Yeah - I found that example afterwards

[GabrielHurl]

They did that. They built a stadium that is capable of conversion (the definition of capable of conversion is legally somewhat more flexible and is far more ambiguous then "OK people, lets spend the next 48 hours getting this ready for the Metro Bowl").

Did they really though?

I don't think pouring large concrete foundations at either end is conducive to "conversion to football"

[Canary10]

It's clear the City's leadership wants the Argos at BMO. But whether anything can be done legally, I doubt it.

[OgtheDim]

Did they really though?

It would be hard to say what the definition of "capable of conversion" is. Proving that in court would be difficult.


Frankly, I don't see there being much of an arguement legally here as much as one of moral suasion which is trumped by an argument based on "well we need the Argos to stay in the city and BMO is capable so....". Braley isn't going to get very far if he is relying upon that original agreement. Which is why he is relying upon the "Lets not let the Argos fold" argument.

Part of me wishes the CFL would just revoke his ownership of the team and give it to somebody else with a decent plan; the sooner the CFL gets away from Braley, the healthier the whole league will be. They should get the Argos into the hands of somebody who wants to spend money on them. Like Bob Young with the Ti-Cats. (Unfortunately, the obvious choice wants to put them at BMO under MLSE - Tannebaum) But Braley's the ultimate insider in that group.

[sully]

It's clear the City's leadership wants the Argos at BMO. But whether anything can be done legally, I doubt it.

The city leadership, i.e. the mayor, is an ex-commissioner of the CFL business - it has spoken out in his current position - why isn't this a conflict of interest I don't know..

my sense of it is the Argos strategy is essentially a pity strategy. They wait, go on saying "but we're the oldest football club in north america etc", do nothing to help themselves, get close to existinction, expect sympathy from everyone, and then get handed a solution that may or may not be beneficial to them in the long term and certainly not beneficial to TFC..

[TFC07]

The city leadership, i.e. the mayor, is an ex-commissioner of the CFL business - it has spoken out in his current position - why isn't this a conflict of interest I don't know..

my sense of it is the Argos strategy is essentially a pity strategy. They wait, go on saying "but we're the oldest football club in north america etc", do nothing to help themselves, get close to existinction, expect sympathy from everyone, and then get handed a solution..

This is why it's hard to respect and cheer for Argos in this market. You don't see any other Toronto pro team behaving like Argos. No wonder Blue Jay fans are glad Argos leaving Rogers Centre for good next year.

One more thing: problem with Argos moving into BMO field is money not support. City can support Argos all they want, but they don't have money and can't force MLSE to pay $10 million to $20 million (assuming Provincial government don't kick in their share) to get Argos into BMO field. It really comes down to Argos and CFL if they want to move to BMO field and willing to pay for it. So I highly doubt we will see Argos and CFL taking City and MLSE to court over this issue unless they're stupid enough to believe that City and/or MLSE should be paying them to move in. lol