Argos to BMO decision - Wednesday, May 20th

[Skinner]

Yes. Day One SSH.

I believe it was built on time and on budget. But that's got SFA to do with the stories I mentioned.

I read about the stadium problems the CFL is having in Hamilton and Winnipeg, plus the very-foreseeable drop in ticket sales in Ottawa(which will only continue), and I worry that we're see preventable problems descend onto TFC's, and our, doorstep.

The CFL works anywhere but Toronto. It has been operating a financial shell game for ages, robbing Peter(Dalla Riva) to pay Paul(Pearson).

This TV money comes from Bell-TSN, long-time CFL rights owners and former Argos owners. After losing the NHL contract, they've had to do something strong to bolster remaining properties, particularly the CFL. A crumbling, eroding CFL means a diminished product and they lose viewers, sponsors and the whole thing becomes a vicious circle.

It's great that TSN props up the CFL. The western clubs truly merit that, but a not-so-distant past littered with repeated bankrupt franchises in the east makes it very hard to have any faith in this league.

One of the biggest scams is this whole Argos deal. For years we were told they were owned by Cynamon and Sokolowski. When they got out of that deal, they revealed that current owner David Braley had actually given them half the money to buy them from the league, who were operating the Argos because they had gone bankrupt under Sherwood Schwartz, the second time the club achieved this dubious distinction, tying it for the Eastern Conference lead with Ottawa, one bankruptcy up on Montreal. Braley was also underwriting half their operating losses. In effect, he has been Argos owner since 2003.

As a reward for his generosity, the CFL has given one of Braley's two CFL clubs the right to host the Grey Cup in three of the past four years, an even that normally generates a healthy profit. By most estimates, Braley has netted at least $25 million in clear profit from those three cups. In addition, he has received government grants worth about $10 million for the 2012 Grey Cup in Toronto, that being the 100th cup final. And the Edmonton Eskimos were somehow coerced into trading top QB Ricky Ray to Toronto to give them a competitive hand up, a very shady deal that Edmonton fans to this day can't fathom or condone.

(Wanna know the payback? Edmonton MLS referee David Gantar's brutal calls in Columbus and Chicago. Karma, baby. But I digress.)

So, that's our man Braley netting $25 million in four years in profits and a probably a decent chunk of the $10 million in grants, through various machinations of the league and sympathetic government agencies. He's a very wealthy man by anyone's estimation, enough to routinely give away many millions of dollars in philanthropic gestures every year.

How come we haven't seen any sense of vision and direction or commitment of money from Braley to get the Argos a proper home? You can also slap that charge on the CFL itself, because they've clearly been in close co-operation with everything going on with the Argos.

Braley's been at the helm, one way or the other, for more than 12 years, yet the Argos remain one of the most pathetic, inept, unpitiable operations in all of sport. And TFC fans are supposed to be understanding and sympathetic to their plight and let this Ship of Fools dock at BMO Field without serious concerns?

They claim that the Rogers Centre is a bad home for them. I've really enjoyed watching their games from the upper levels, but they closed the top deck years ago. They say being the second-string tenant, they can't establish any sort of cultural footprint to bring the fans they have closer to the team and the sport.

None of that is going to change at BMO Field. They'll still be the unwanted, second-string tenant by the vast majority of fans who turn out to watch the prime product, soccer.

They're gonna wreck the pitch, with the lusty approval of their fans, and set up even tangier pissing matches between supporters.

There's nothing to suggest they won't descend into further financial peril and make ever-more pathetic pleas for help. Based on past circumstances, this is hardly the sort of situation likely to attract some administrative genius to suddenly elevate them from the disastrous management we've seen for three decades. And it will only get messier over time.

Let's drop this wishful thinking about some Argo salvation at BMO Field. If the Argos are to have a proper chance to succeed, the city needs to prod Braley and the CFL to spend the money they have wisely. Invest in a proper home for the Argos at the Pan Am stadium. The subway will run right to it and there are plenty of nearby highways to bring in their surviving fans from their retirement communities in far-flung, hinterland outports.

Toronto FC and MLS aren't bulletproof. The club and the game have done very well at BMO Field. That needs to be protected and further cultivated under the best possible circumstances. The Argos will find that's exactly what they need to do. Somewhere else. And if they can't make it work, we won't have a mess to deal with at BMO Field.

Here! Here!

[jloome]

Yes. Day One SSH.

I believe it was built on time and on budget. But that's got SFA to do with the stories I mentioned.

I read about the stadium problems the CFL is having in Hamilton and Winnipeg, plus the very-foreseeable drop in ticket sales in Ottawa(which will only continue), and I worry that we're see preventable problems descend onto TFC's, and our, doorstep.

The CFL works anywhere but Toronto. It has been operating a financial shell game for ages, robbing Peter(Dalla Riva) to pay Paul(Pearson).

This TV money comes from Bell-TSN, long-time CFL rights owners and former Argos owners. After losing the NHL contract, they've had to do something strong to bolster remaining properties, particularly the CFL. A crumbling, eroding CFL means a diminished product and they lose viewers, sponsors and the whole thing becomes a vicious circle.

It's great that TSN props up the CFL. The western clubs truly merit that, but a not-so-distant past littered with repeated bankrupt franchises in the east makes it very hard to have any faith in this league.

One of the biggest scams is this whole Argos deal. For years we were told they were owned by Cynamon and Sokolowski. When they got out of that deal, they revealed that current owner David Braley had actually given them half the money to buy them from the league, who were operating the Argos because they had gone bankrupt under Sherwood Schwartz, the second time the club achieved this dubious distinction, tying it for the Eastern Conference lead with Ottawa, one bankruptcy up on Montreal. Braley was also underwriting half their operating losses. In effect, he has been Argos owner since 2003.

As a reward for his generosity, the CFL has given one of Braley's two CFL clubs the right to host the Grey Cup in three of the past four years, an even that normally generates a healthy profit. By most estimates, Braley has netted at least $25 million in clear profit from those three cups. In addition, he has received government grants worth about $10 million for the 2012 Grey Cup in Toronto, that being the 100th cup final. And the Edmonton Eskimos were somehow coerced into trading top QB Ricky Ray to Toronto to give them a competitive hand up, a very shady deal that Edmonton fans to this day can't fathom or condone.

(Wanna know the payback? Edmonton MLS referee David Gantar's brutal calls in Columbus and Chicago. Karma, baby. But I digress.)

So, that's our man Braley netting $25 million in four years in profits and a probably a decent chunk of the $10 million in grants, through various machinations of the league and sympathetic government agencies. He's a very wealthy man by anyone's estimation, enough to routinely give away many millions of dollars in philanthropic gestures every year.

How come we haven't seen any sense of vision and direction or commitment of money from Braley to get the Argos a proper home? You can also slap that charge on the CFL itself, because they've clearly been in close co-operation with everything going on with the Argos.

Braley's been at the helm, one way or the other, for more than 12 years, yet the Argos remain one of the most pathetic, inept, unpitiable operations in all of sport. And TFC fans are supposed to be understanding and sympathetic to their plight and let this Ship of Fools dock at BMO Field without serious concerns?

They claim that the Rogers Centre is a bad home for them. I've really enjoyed watching their games from the upper levels, but they closed the top deck years ago. They say being the second-string tenant, they can't establish any sort of cultural footprint to bring the fans they have closer to the team and the sport.

None of that is going to change at BMO Field. They'll still be the unwanted, second-string tenant by the vast majority of fans who turn out to watch the prime product, soccer.

They're gonna wreck the pitch, with the lusty approval of their fans, and set up even tangier pissing matches between supporters.

There's nothing to suggest they won't descend into further financial peril and make ever-more pathetic pleas for help. Based on past circumstances, this is hardly the sort of situation likely to attract some administrative genius to suddenly elevate them from the disastrous management we've seen for three decades. And it will only get messier over time.

Let's drop this wishful thinking about some Argo salvation at BMO Field. If the Argos are to have a proper chance to succeed, the city needs to prod Braley and the CFL to spend the money they have wisely. Invest in a proper home for the Argos at the Pan Am stadium. The subway will run right to it and there are plenty of nearby highways to bring in their surviving fans from their retirement communities in far-flung, hinterland outports.

Toronto FC and MLS aren't bulletproof. The club and the game have done very well at BMO Field. That needs to be protected and further cultivated under the best possible circumstances. The Argos will find that's exactly what they need to do. Somewhere else. And if they can't make it work, we won't have a mess to deal with at BMO Field.

Testify!

[Shakes McQueen]

Awesome rant greatwhitenorf, except for one small clarification (correction?). I'm pretty sure it's Rogers that are booting the Argos out of the Dome - not that the Argos are choosing to leave - after their most recent tenancy contract is up, because the Blue Jays want to renovate the stadium to put in a real grass baseball field. And since the stadium and baseball team share the same owner, they have all of the leverage to do it.

Aside from that small note, I'm 100% in agreement. If the Argos weren't in Canada's largest city, in the country's only football league, and the oldest pro sports franchise on the continent (I think?), there would be no question that they were an utterly failed franchise. They would be akin to the Phoenix Coyotes, and have employed similar ongoing financial shenanigans for 12 years and counting.

If the Argos are so sure they need "their own home", someone needs to step up and figure it out for them. A retrofitted BMO Field is better for them than the Dome, but they'll still be secondary tenants in someone else's stadium. And as you say, bringing them in to BMO, AT BEST, has a neutral impact on TFC, and only gets worse from there. It's not like TFC is some robust, successful brand that has been around for 50 years - this has the potential to hurt them.

The Argos either need to put on their big boy pants, or they need to be folded/relocated.

Of course, what ought to be, and probably will be, are miles apart.

[Ivy]

Somebody, riddle me this.
The concrete and steel concourse behind the southend is now in place. Tell me what how is it possible to retract the stand at all? The only thing I can possible imagine is replacing the entire thing with high school gym type thing that each row slides under the row above it - but that doesn't work when you have actual seats with backrests on them.

[denime]

Somebody, riddle me this.
The concrete and steel concourse behind the southend is now in place. Tell me what how is it possible to retract the stand at all? The only thing I can possible imagine is replacing the entire thing with high school gym type thing that each row slides under the row above it - but that doesn't work when you have actual seats with backrests on them.

It's not possible,they would tear down all south stands ,and build it from scratch.

[GabrielHurl]

And use a system like this which will roll out over the field turf end zones - which I believe are the same type of seats in the south end

[Mulder]

I've never seen so much non-sense.

Yes. Day One SSH.

I believe it was built on time and on budget. But that's got SFA to do with the stories I mentioned.

I read about the stadium problems the CFL is having in Hamilton and Winnipeg, plus the very-foreseeable drop in ticket sales in Ottawa(which will only continue), and I worry that we're see preventable problems descend onto TFC's, and our, doorstep.

Again, blaming Ticats and the Bombers for design issues. Jeepers. The season ticket drop in Ottawa was foreseeable, Yet your criticizing an 80% renewal rate after a 2-16 season.

No offense, TFC has been saved from much worse drops by bringing in grass, going back to year 1 pricing, signing Dafoe, and now they the curiosity factor by an upgraded stadium. How long can MLSE continue this flash in the pan?

The CFL works anywhere but Toronto. It has been operating a financial shell game for ages, robbing Peter(Dalla Riva) to pay Paul(Pearson).

TV Numbers and studies have proved the support is there for those who watch the CFL in Toronto. 22% of respondents in Toronto said they follow the CFL, Comparable to Quebec

http://www.reginaldbibby.com/images/...ov_21_2013.pdf

This TV money comes from Bell-TSN, long-time CFL rights owners and former Argos owners. After losing the NHL contract, they've had to do something strong to bolster remaining properties, particularly the CFL. A crumbling, eroding CFL means a diminished product and they lose viewers, sponsors and the whole thing becomes a vicious circle.

TSN renewed the CFL Contract BEFORE the NHL rights were awarded (March 2013 for CFL Deal, November 2013 for NHL deal) so 'losing' the NHL contract had absolutely nothing to do with it. TSN owned the Argos for one whole year. To me, I actually like the idea of keeping the media out of the sports ownership business, way less journalist bias. Have you ever tried to watch SportsNet during BlueJays season? Blah!

It's great that TSN props up the CFL. The western clubs truly merit that, but a not-so-distant past littered with repeated bankrupt franchises in the east makes it very hard to have any faith in this league.

When you focus on the negatives, it gets really hard to see all the positives the league has accomplished, especially in the east. One challenge remains.

One of the biggest scams is this whole Argos deal. For years we were told they were owned by Cynamon and Sokolowski. When they got out of that deal, they revealed that current owner David Braley had actually given them half the money to buy them from the league, who were operating the Argos because they had gone bankrupt under Sherwood Schwartz, the second time the club achieved this dubious distinction, tying it for the Eastern Conference lead with Ottawa, one bankruptcy up on Montreal. Braley was also underwriting half their operating losses. In effect, he has been Argos owner since 2003.

As a reward for his generosity, the CFL has given one of Braley's two CFL clubs the right to host the Grey Cup in three of the past four years, an even that normally generates a healthy profit. By most estimates, Braley has netted at least $25 million in clear profit from those three cups. In addition, he has received government grants worth about $10 million for the 2012 Grey Cup in Toronto, that being the 100th cup final. And the Edmonton Eskimos were somehow coerced into trading top QB Ricky Ray to Toronto to give them a competitive hand up, a very shady deal that Edmonton fans to this day can't fathom or condone.

"he" did not receive any government grants for the 2012 Grey Cup. That all went into the festival. When you say it like that you make it sound as if the government directly gave him the money, You do realize that after these types of grants are given that the financial statement oh how this money was spent has to be sent back to the Government of Canada/Ontario? If you want to know how it was spent just do a freedom of information request.

Your Ricky Ray conspiracy theory is laughable, given at the time the GM (Eric Tillman) had a repeat history of trading away star QB's for Canadian depth. Kerry Joesph wins the Grey Cup 2007 and then is traded to Toronto. Who was the GM of the Riders? Eric Tillman. There's no conspiracy theory with that trade because Kerry was garbage here.

You also want to talk about "scams" how about when MLSE flipped the naming rights for the stadium to BMO for a $17m profit. Because of this, now many naming rights agreements force a 50/50 split with city/operator (as with TD place) Now with the naming rights coming up again, MLSE is investing in the stadium.

So, that's our man Braley netting $25 million in four years in profits and a probably a decent chunk of the $10 million in grants, through various machinations of the league and sympathetic government agencies. He's a very wealthy man by anyone's estimation, enough to routinely give away many millions of dollars in philanthropic gestures every year.

How come we haven't seen any sense of vision and direction or commitment of money from Braley to get the Argos a proper home? You can also slap that charge on the CFL itself, because they've clearly been in close co-operation with everything going on with the Argos.[/QUOTE]

I highly doubt that number is anywhere near $25 million ( I actually can't find any estimate posted anywhere you speak of) Grey Cup's typically net $3-4million for the home team, and the only news agency reporting $9m profit from the Grey Cup in 2012 is "unnamed sources" for the Toronto Star, and CFL unfriendly Rogers Media. Some people require a little more substance than that. I can agree with you on Braley's vision for the Argos has likely has been pretty bad. He thought when we took over the team that Rogers Centre would work.

Braley's been at the helm, one way or the other, for more than 12 years, yet the Argos remain one of the most pathetic, inept, unpitiable operations in all of sport. And TFC fans are supposed to be understanding and sympathetic to their plight and let this Ship of Fools dock at BMO Field without serious concerns?

A TFC Fan calling the Argos pathetic and inept? Some very strange words coming you. Given TFC's success during their same timeframe of existence. 2007 - Present. The Argos have been very successful on the field. I wouldn't describe the operation like that at all. Front office they managed things quite well until 2013 I thought, since it was announced the Braley was trying to sell the team it's become more of a shit show.

They claim that the Rogers Centre is a bad home for them. I've really enjoyed watching their games from the upper levels, but they closed the top deck years ago. They say being the second-string tenant, they can't establish any sort of cultural footprint to bring the fans they have closer to the team and the sport.

None of that is going to change at BMO Field. They'll still be the unwanted, second-string tenant by the vast majority of fans who turn out to watch the prime product, soccer.

In a City owned stadium no less. But likely not being stuck with the prime dates of Tuesday Nights.

They're gonna wreck the pitch, with the lusty approval of their fans, and set up even tangier pissing matches between supporters.

Stipulation on it being constructed said it was to be built for both footballs. There's not enough proof that they'll wreak the pitch. They will be playing there exactly 1 day every 2 weeks (on average) and not practicing there either.

There's nothing to suggest they won't descend into further financial peril and make ever-more pathetic pleas for help. Based on past circumstances, this is hardly the sort of situation likely to attract some administrative genius to suddenly elevate them from the disastrous management we've seen for three decades. And it will only get messier over time.

Yet there is other examples of moving into a smaller, more football friendly stadium has helped franchises. So having examples of where clubs have improved under smaller stadiums suggests that they will decend into further financial peril? Argos are following those examples, it's also why, many newer stadiums in North America are being built smaller. But that's nothing to suggest they won't get better. Only many other examples of this happening in other cities. Jeepers.

Let's drop this wishful thinking about some Argo salvation at BMO Field. If the Argos are to have a proper chance to succeed, the city needs to prod Braley and the CFL to spend the money they have wisely. Invest in a proper home for the Argos at the Pan Am stadium. The subway will run right to it and there are plenty of nearby highways to bring in their surviving fans from their retirement communities in far-flung, hinterland outports.

Great Comment. Both the City and the CFL want the Argos at BMO. This is an investment for the City, having more tenants at a city owned stadium means more revenue. They have the model for success at other cities.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I've never seen so much non-sense.



Again, blaming Ticats and the Bombers for design issues. Jeepers. The season ticket drop in Ottawa was foreseeable, Yet your criticizing an 80% renewal rate after a 2-16 season.

No offense, TFC has been saved from much worse drops by bringing in grass, going back to year 1 pricing, signing Dafoe, and now they the curiosity factor by an upgraded stadium. How long can MLSE continue this flash in the pan?

Remember where you are.

This is trolling.

You have been warned.

[Mulder]

And use a system like this which will roll out over the field turf end zones - which I believe are the same type of seats in the south end

IMO, if they go with a system like this, they should just extend the grass field all the way to back of the endzones. Roll out the stands just before TFC games. That way if there is any issues with grass they could just transplant some in house.

Just a thought anyways.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Stipulation on it being constructed said it was to be built for both footballs. There's not enough proof that they'll wreak the pitch. They will be playing there exactly 1 day every 2 weeks (on average) and not practicing there either.

Plenty of proof out there. There's zero proof that this type of schedule will work for the surface and there is zero reason for TFC/Canada fans to invite the degrade in quality of the surface and thereby the play.

[GabrielHurl]

There's zero proof that this type of schedule will work for the surface

There's also zero proof it won't work

[OgtheDim]

Yup, we just don't know.

All we know is gridiron has badly munched up Desso Grassmaster at the % of non-grass currently used in European stadiums.

As nobody has tried to get a higher % of non-grass and still have soccer as the primary user, this is all uncharted territory.

Anybody who says it will or will not ruin the pitch is guessing.

[GabrielHurl]

Here's Lambeau Field on November 30th during the just finished NFL season - it was their 6th home game of the season

[Fort York Redcoat]

There's also zero proof it won't work

If it ain't broke why break it? This can be referred to downgrading from grass to desso or the fact that we as supporters have no reason for this risk with no gain.

Yup, we just don't know.

All we know is gridiron has badly munched up Desso Grassmaster at the % of non-grass currently used in European stadiums.

As nobody has tried to get a higher % of non-grass and still have soccer as the primary user, this is all uncharted territory.

Anybody who says it will or will not ruin the pitch is guessing.

Guessing so far as we've seen the desso in shambles 2 days after and there will points in the season/calendar where we may have 3 day turnaround. This isn't convincing any footy supporter this change is worth the risk.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Here's Lambeau Field on November 30th during the just finished NFL season - it was their 6th home game of the season

This is raising questions for me.

"just finished" meaning start of playoffs?
They only played 6 home games all season? When would the Argos sched be like that?
Is this Desso grassmaster?
Does a footy team and National side play here as well?

Just looking for clarification if this was meant to be a comparison.

[Canary10]

The grounds crew at Wembley were pretty adamant that they couldn't properly prepare the pitch for an England game a week or so after the NFL game there. So I don't know why there isn't proof it doesn't work. Seems like that's the best comparison we have.

[GabrielHurl]

Just finished as in the past NFL season that just finished in February. I didn’t pick a playoff date as those games are in January – and there would be no MLS/CFL games then.

It’s at a comparable time as the Grey Cup was the same day (November 30th) and the MLS Cup Final was December 7^th.

Green Bay play 8 home games as year between September and end of December – so this is well into their season. The Argos play 9 home games from July to start of November.

Yes it is Desso Grassmaster

No footy – only the Packers play there.

[GabrielHurl]

The grounds crew at Wembley were pretty adamant that they couldn't properly prepare the pitch for an England game a week or so after the NFL game there. So I don't know why there isn't proof it doesn't work. Seems like that's the best comparison we have.

They had a lot of rain in the weeks leading up to the NFL/England games at London in early November

[Canary10]

^ In the Green Bay example there is no soccer. It's far more not an example of one working than Wembley is of one not working. I could actually see lines on the pitch in that England game as well when I saw it live.

[TFC07]

^ In the Green Bay example there is no soccer. It's far more not an example of one working than Wembley is of one not working. I could actually see lines on the pitch in that England game as well when I saw it live.

You can even see it on picture posted by Gabriel Hurl

[OgtheDim]

The grounds crew at Wembley were pretty adamant that they couldn't properly prepare the pitch for an England game a week or so after the NFL game there. So I don't know why there isn't proof it doesn't work. Seems like that's the best comparison we have.

Its the best we proof have but its still not a Granny Smith apple to a Granny Smith apple comparison. Not every Desso uses the same % of non grass fibres.

[Canary10]

Its the best we proof have but its still not a Granny Smith apple to a Granny Smith apple comparison. Not every Desso uses the same % of non grass fibres.

Yeah, there will never be a perfect comparison. But if it were a court of law, I think there would enough evidence to find ground sharing guilty of murder.

[barticusz]

Taking all the emotion out of this. Assuming that the City will do what it has to in order to keep the Argo's alive, as a taxpayer do you want to be paying for a new stadium for them to play out of or, is it better that they play in stadium that is currently available?

[Canary10]

^ Building another stadium with taxpayer money, since it's obvious the Argos won't put a cent into anything, clearly won't happen. We should keep them where they are. Skydome was a public white elephant that Rogers bought for nothing. Keeping the Argos there should be part of the deal for fleecing the public.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Taking all the emotion out of this. Assuming that the City will do what it has to in order to keep the Argo's alive, as a taxpayer do you want to be paying for a new stadium for them to play out of or, is it better that they play in stadium that is currently available?

There are other places available that would enjoy groundshare but for the people involved in owning and moving the club. Why not go somewhere there won't be backlash? This is the least attractive groundshare in recent memory. And yes it's because emotion will not be taken out of it.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Its the best we proof have but its still not a Granny Smith apple to a Granny Smith apple comparison. Not every Desso uses the same % of non grass fibres.

I was on their site and it only listed 2 variations. Now you're telling me it could get worse. Lovely.

[GabrielHurl]

There are other places available that would enjoy groundshare but for the people involved in owning and moving the club. Why not go somewhere there won't be backlash? This is the least attractive groundshare in recent memory. And yes it's because emotion will not be taken out of it.

Where are these places?

[Enterprise Captain]

^ Building another stadium with taxpayer money, since it's obvious the Argos won't put a cent into anything, clearly won't happen. We should keep them where they are. Skydome was a public white elephant that Rogers bought for nothing. Keeping the Argos there should be part of the deal for fleecing the public.

Got one of these handy?



Otherwise the Rogers Centre deal is long done. Looking forward the only realistic option for the Argos at this time is BMO Field.

[sidvan]

There are other places available that would enjoy groundshare but for the people involved in owning and moving the club. Why not go somewhere there won't be backlash? This is the least attractive groundshare in recent memory. And yes it's because emotion will not be taken out of it.

Make them play at the TFC II new OSA stadium.

[TFC07]

Make them play at the TFC II new OSA stadium.

They can play at Varsity Stadium or York U if they wanted to. OSA field is too small to play Canadian football unless they expand field size.