Thanks. I was reading last years news, clearly.Originally Posted by Mulder
Thanks. I was reading last years news, clearly.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
Appreciate the info as always.
The personal commentary is completely unnecessary. You made your point.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
Yeah, but what is the reason? Who benefits from keeping alive such rumours? The NFL is a straight business deal, put up the money, get the franchise. There's no mystery, the league has always made its criteria for ownership clear and yet the media insist on continuing with these rumours.
And the World Cup seems like the Olympics, there's no political will (or nearly enough unity) in this country to get involved in a multi-billion dollar bidding war in a system that looks awfully corrupt and filled with bribes. Other than columnists with nothing else to write about on slow news days, who benefits from keeping these rumours alive?
You definitely read every word and work very hard to provide well-spun responses. Wouldn't your time be better spent tub thumping ticket sales for the Argos than playing news nanny on a soccer site?
The story reads thusly: the stadium project was funded to deliver a venue for the PanAm games soccer tournament. By the looks of things, the stadium will be ready for that event. But the TiCats, rather than remain for one more season in Guelph, forced an unrealistic delivery date and the ensuing problems with sub-contractors - delayed completions, liens, bankruptcies - are hardly an endorsement for doing business with CFL interests.
Last edited by greatwhitenorf; 03-09-2015 at 12:25 PM.
Don't bother responding to the personal attack with your own. It's just as unnecessary.
Let's stick to facts and opinion about the topic. Not other users.
Thank you.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
LOL.
Pan Am and Olympic venues are supposed to be ready 1 year in advance for test events. The Ticats never drove nor forced the delivery date. If you have proof of this, other than completely speculative and made up reasons, please share it with everyone.
The Ticats were told from the start it would be ready in 2014. They were told in Feb 2014 it would be ready July 25th 2014, for the home opener. The stadium project is not even managed by the Ticats nor the CFL (It's Infrastructure Ontario) who set the initial completion date.
Considering others have already agreed with my point, or pointed out the delays and cost-overruns had nothing to do with the Ticats, it's clear your grasping at straws for reasons for the Argos not to goto BMO.
Last edited by Mulder; 03-09-2015 at 01:09 PM.
Additional "reasons for the Argos not to go to BMO."
Not that I need any more than I have.
Just sayin
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
No offense, a stadium construction managed by a 3rd party, designed and built by 4th party, is not a reason not to go into business with a CFL team. Ticats had nothing to do with the delays and over-runs. Yet, someone is trying to spin it that way and use it as an excuse.
THF is no tin-can that BMO is.
You're saying this to stress the time its taking to create a quality of stadium that will be Tim Hortons Field is not the same time restrictions BMO would be dealing with their renovations, yes?
I could see that. Still the timetable and different phases may turn timetable on its head.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
No. I was comparing the original BMO to THF.
In addition, PCL is a more established and IMO better contractor than Kenaidan.
For BMO Reno, They have to be installing seats by mid-April if they have a hope opening the new grandstand for May 10th. You have to figure 300-500 seats per day (TD Place Install Rate) - so 16 days min to install new seating. I had a feeling the schedule was going to be very tight to begin with. Should I blame MLS and TFC if it's delayed?
But then again, we better blame the Ticats and the CFL for THF having major design flaws too. It's all the CFL's fault and isn't an endorsement for doing business with CFL teams because design flaws.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilt...sual-1.2768363
Thanks again for the clarifying info.
I'm wondering where your sarcasm is coming from, though. Treat everyone with the same bias and don't be surprised if you get a negative reaction. I didn't make that point that you've already refuted so there's no reason for grand generalization.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
The sarcasm wasn't supposed to be directed at you, sorry about that.
I'm just still completely shocked that someone would think that delays and over-runs are attributed to the tenant in that case. The whole project was very poorly managed, as pointed out by someone else here, it's also the reason why the owner of a well known trade subcontractor that I know wouldn't even touch that project.
All the construction companies that bid on the THF contract knew full well that the contract was to be done june 2014. Its not like the ticats said half way through construction "by the way we want this done a year ahead of schedule"
The construction cosortium won the bid based on them saying they could deliver on time and on budget. Which they evidently failed to do. Nobody tricked them into rushing the job. The timeline was in the tender. If they knew they couldnt get it done in time they shouldnt have bid on it. (Completely botching the steel engineering and not designing the steel support strucuture strong enough was a ridiculous mistake forcing them to reinforce and triple weld every steel joint)
In hindsight they should have gone with a much more experienced company like PCL, because the THF guys dropped the ball. Up until a month before the june deadline they were saying the stadium would be done on time. Now its march 10 months later and its still not done. Thats not on the ticats. Thats on construction company who knew when they took the bid what the time constraints were.
Last edited by king10; 03-10-2015 at 11:03 PM.
the yankees and NYCFC are already not getting along.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ba...icle-1.2145527
Mowe, the schedule when we played CCL was already WAY overcrowded. Throw in the Argos and there is no hope at all... the field will be a sloppy mess from June/July to August and probably won't recover for the rest of the season.
When you hire someone to build you a porch for the front of your house you are partially responsible for who you hire to do the job no?
Not everyone is equally qualified to do it, and that is solely the responsibility of the owners judgement, or lack thereof in this case.
Are you blaming the Ticats for who they "hired?"
Just a refresher, Ticats didn't hire anybody to do the design and construction of the stadium. That lies with Infrastructure Ontario. They had companies submit an RFQ (Request for Qualifications), after that, 3 companies were invited do a design and the best graded one won out. The 3 companies were deemed to have the proper qualifications to submit a proposal.
If that contractor you hired doesn't design/build that front porch to building code, you sue him or withhold payment until he fixes it. If you want to get into the nitty gritty of construction & contract law I can help you with that.
The designer/contractor in this case was deemed to have the qualifications, but made an engineering mistake. I'm really not sure how you solely blame the owner in this case (or at all for that matter). It's not the owners responsibility to go though all the design calculations and methodology. This is why we have consulting engineering firms, as they stamp a drawing, they take ownership of that design and any flaws that may go with it, as they are supposed to be the experts.
This construction delay issue is a moot point and extraneous to the issue here in Toronto.
Hamilton wanted a new Ti-cats stadium and like almost every other stadium project in this country it needed more than one purpose: Enter Pan-Am
When we make this stretch of a comparison because CFL is involved at all it doesn't serve the anti Argos at BMO point.
If BMO isn't able to host games because of construction in Phase 3 (the phase in which adjustments for Argos would be made) THEN its a problem. It would then be the Argos fault that the construction could be done without their moving in.
Until then deadlines aren't an issue of groundshare. Which isn't the main concern in the first place. It comes down to them not arriving at BMO at all to ensure the best playing surface.
If they move to BMO I won't concerned with how long it takes the stadium to accommodate them. The damage will have been done.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
Don't forget all international and Canadian national soccer games being played at BMO field during summer and fall.
It will be interesting to see how this will play out since MLSE invested a lot of money into BMO field so they could host more high profile non-TFC soccer games at BMO field (this year, we're hosting couple of Gold Cup games).
The Tabbies are all over this like litter on cat shit. They were heavily involved in every stage of the decision-making process.
The last thing I want is a CFL club with a proven record as specialists in failure bringing their decades-long record of insolvency and incompetence to BMO Field. They need a new stadium and they need a place where they can properly promote Canadian football. The Rogers Centre wasn't that place. The Jays have smelt the catfood and sent them packing. This stadium will only extend those problems. Wake up and start working on a proper solution.
Haven't you got a productive life to lead elsewhere?
Last edited by greatwhitenorf; 03-13-2015 at 03:11 PM.
There is too much irony in this post to justify any other response other than 'LOL'
Good Day.
This is unnecessary.
While I may wonder if @Mulder contribution will pass responding to Argos invocationsI still appreciate his information as long as its delivered civilly. Please show him the same accord.
And I seriously doubt the Argos would have any more, or even as much say in the reno of BMO past
"Can we physically fit in there? Ya? Cool."
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
New CFL commish announced today.
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/football/cf...oner-1.2997998
we'll see what he or she says about Argos at BMO...
I'm guessing it'll be a question from the gallery.
Somebody tweeted
TSN lists three top priorities for the #CFL's next commissioner: Toronto ownership, expansion considerations, reach younger demographic.
That 3rd one is the big difference between the CFL and MLS.
Looks like they named a media exec.
Wait, isn't this the guy who basically gave the HNIC farm to Rogers and stuck CBC with still having to show it?
Last edited by OgtheDim; 03-17-2015 at 10:09 AM.
Jeff Orridge.
Harvard Law.
CBC big wig.
worked on NHL stuff and Pan Am stuff.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Orridge
Seems like it....
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...2643/?page=all
Boiler plate stuff from the new CFL dude and then the Chair of the Board of Governors of the CFL
Orridge also touched on the importance of rectifying the situation in Toronto. “I think the health of every team is critically important to help the league. There is nothing more important than immediately addressing the situation in Toronto. This city is vitally important to the health of this league and it will be a priority.”
Orridge, of course, has not been a part of the discussions with regard to the Argonauts, and Lawson continued with a brief statement. “I’d prefer not to comment on the discussions that have taken place. They are ongoing, and the good news is I’d prefer not comment on where they are at which means they are alive and moving along. I’m part of these on going discussions, that’s about all that can be said at this time.”
Jings, the epidemic of shoddy stadium construction that is running through the CFL like shit through a goose should nose aside expansion considerations.
First, the Masters of Meccano fumble the pipe wrench with Hamilton's stadium. Now comes follow up reports that Winnipeg's new stadium is an absolute shit show as well.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manito...lems-1.2981173
To top that off, word is out that season tickets are down in Ottawa. Qu'elle surpreeze! They'll be down next year, too, and once the tipping point is reached, and fans realize they can buy tickets on a walk-up basis most night, they'll drop a whole lot further.
This guy will be too busy putting out brush fires to properly treat black eyes. If he wants to attract kids to his league, he should start a reality show called Sports Fiasco. Season one will end dramatically with David Braley's keys to the Argos getting tossed through his office window.
Yeah - he's in a tough spot having a TV contract worth $40million a year and average ratings of over 650,000 for each game. A real tough spot.
As for stadium issues/problems - you have been at BMO Field right?
Yes. Day One SSH.
I believe it was built on time and on budget. But that's got SFA to do with the stories I mentioned.
I read about the stadium problems the CFL is having in Hamilton and Winnipeg, plus the very-foreseeable drop in ticket sales in Ottawa(which will only continue), and I worry that we're see preventable problems descend onto TFC's, and our, doorstep.
The CFL works anywhere but Toronto. It has been operating a financial shell game for ages, robbing Peter(Dalla Riva) to pay Paul(Pearson).
This TV money comes from Bell-TSN, long-time CFL rights owners and former Argos owners. After losing the NHL contract, they've had to do something strong to bolster remaining properties, particularly the CFL. A crumbling, eroding CFL means a diminished product and they lose viewers, sponsors and the whole thing becomes a vicious circle.
It's great that TSN props up the CFL. The western clubs truly merit that, but a not-so-distant past littered with repeated bankrupt franchises in the east makes it very hard to have any faith in this league.
One of the biggest scams is this whole Argos deal. For years we were told they were owned by Cynamon and Sokolowski. When they got out of that deal, they revealed that current owner David Braley had actually given them half the money to buy them from the league, who were operating the Argos because they had gone bankrupt under Sherwood Schwartz, the second time the club achieved this dubious distinction, tying it for the Eastern Conference lead with Ottawa, one bankruptcy up on Montreal. Braley was also underwriting half their operating losses. In effect, he has been Argos owner since 2003.
As a reward for his generosity, the CFL has given one of Braley's two CFL clubs the right to host the Grey Cup in three of the past four years, an even that normally generates a healthy profit. By most estimates, Braley has netted at least $25 million in clear profit from those three cups. In addition, he has received government grants worth about $10 million for the 2012 Grey Cup in Toronto, that being the 100th cup final. And the Edmonton Eskimos were somehow coerced into trading top QB Ricky Ray to Toronto to give them a competitive hand up, a very shady deal that Edmonton fans to this day can't fathom or condone.
(Wanna know the payback? Edmonton MLS referee David Gantar's brutal calls in Columbus and Chicago. Karma, baby. But I digress.)
So, that's our man Braley netting $25 million in four years in profits and a probably a decent chunk of the $10 million in grants, through various machinations of the league and sympathetic government agencies. He's a very wealthy man by anyone's estimation, enough to routinely give away many millions of dollars in philanthropic gestures every year.
How come we haven't seen any sense of vision and direction or commitment of money from Braley to get the Argos a proper home? You can also slap that charge on the CFL itself, because they've clearly been in close co-operation with everything going on with the Argos.
Braley's been at the helm, one way or the other, for more than 12 years, yet the Argos remain one of the most pathetic, inept, unpitiable operations in all of sport. And TFC fans are supposed to be understanding and sympathetic to their plight and let this Ship of Fools dock at BMO Field without serious concerns?
They claim that the Rogers Centre is a bad home for them. I've really enjoyed watching their games from the upper levels, but they closed the top deck years ago. They say being the second-string tenant, they can't establish any sort of cultural footprint to bring the fans they have closer to the team and the sport.
None of that is going to change at BMO Field. They'll still be the unwanted, second-string tenant by the vast majority of fans who turn out to watch the prime product, soccer.
They're gonna wreck the pitch, with the lusty approval of their fans, and set up even tangier pissing matches between supporters.
There's nothing to suggest they won't descend into further financial peril and make ever-more pathetic pleas for help. Based on past circumstances, this is hardly the sort of situation likely to attract some administrative genius to suddenly elevate them from the disastrous management we've seen for three decades. And it will only get messier over time.
Let's drop this wishful thinking about some Argo salvation at BMO Field. If the Argos are to have a proper chance to succeed, the city needs to prod Braley and the CFL to spend the money they have wisely. Invest in a proper home for the Argos at the Pan Am stadium. The subway will run right to it and there are plenty of nearby highways to bring in their surviving fans from their retirement communities in far-flung, hinterland outports.
Toronto FC and MLS aren't bulletproof. The club and the game have done very well at BMO Field. That needs to be protected and further cultivated under the best possible circumstances. The Argos will find that's exactly what they need to do. Somewhere else. And if they can't make it work, we won't have a mess to deal with at BMO Field.
Last edited by greatwhitenorf; 03-18-2015 at 12:12 AM.
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