Argos to BMO decision - Wednesday, May 20th

[greatwhitenorf]

As the boy Wilde once said: "The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about."

https://www.thebeaverton.com/2016/09...ot-empty-seat/

Toronto - As part of a multi-million dollar rebrand of North America’s oldest professional football franchise, the Toronto Argonauts have replaced its previous mascot, “Jason the Mascot”, with an anthropomorphized empty seat.

“We wanted a mascot that truly conveyed the spirit of the Argonauts,” explained team president Michael Copeland.

“If the CFL can have two teams called the Rough Riders for several decades, the Argos can have an empty seat as a mascot.”

As well as leading the team’s smattering of fans in chants and dances, “Empty Seat” will follow patrons around until they feel guilted into buying season tickets.

“Complete indifference of the Toronto populace is a vital part of the Argonauts tradition,” proudly reported part owner Larry Tanenbaum.

“I was staring at a large section of empty bleachers and that’s when inspiration for a new mascot hit me.”

The new mascot has become a big hit with players.

“No one knows the story of Jason and The Argonauts, but empty chairs are something we all understand,” barked linebacker Kyler Elsworth before speeding off in his 1994 Lancer.

Kicker Lirim Hajrullahu also praised the new mascot saying, “There’s nothing I like more than scoring a sweet, sweet rouge and seeing Ol Empty vainly trying to get the people’s attention.”

Other mascots that were considered include an AM radio, an empty can of Laker Ice, and the Buffalo Bills mascot, Billy Buffalo.

Toronto Argonauts games can be caught on TSN unless something better is playing.

[Pookie]

^ still not going to say what's not working eh?

Not sure which will come sooner, you identifying specific things that aren't working or Trump releasing his taxes. My money's on you but I am starting to worry.

[SoccMan2]

Lol love it nice article.

[BelfastBoy]

Notice its a blue seat. Let the conspiracy theories follow..

[redcard]

Pookie lets wait to discuss whats not working with the ground share when the ccl matches begin next season and there are scheduled CNWT, CNMT matches along with the Canada Rugby matches...because as we known the Argos have the 4th priority for schedule games which could affect TFC matches, as the 5 day rule may not be met, oh and we may actually have rain as well next summer on a normal basis...until then lets discuss why BMO field is not work for the Argos as they anticipated...

[Onyx]

Pookie lets wait to discuss whats not working with the ground share when the ccl matches begin next season and there are scheduled CNWT, CNMT matches along with the Canada Rugby matches...because as we known the Argos have the 4th priority for schedule games which could affect TFC matches, as the 5 day rule may not be met, oh and we may actually have rain as well next summer on a normal basis...until then lets discuss why BMO field is not work for the Argos as they anticipated...

I doubt they are 4th priority.
Probably alternate weekends with us starting in june.

CCL is not really a priority, teams are playing their USL squads ... Vancouver gave Vcup/CCL tickets free to their season ticket holders this year because of the crap teams they were fielding ... the games are a joke unless u make it to the knockout round in february/march. you are really getting 3-4 USL games in your season tix package, above the 17.

[OgtheDim]

I doubt they are 4th priority.
Probably alternate weekends with us starting in june.

CCL is not really a priority, teams are playing their USL squads ... Vancouver gave Vcup/CCL tickets free to their season ticket holders this year because of the crap teams they were fielding ... the games are a joke unless u make it to the knockout round in february/march. you are really getting 3-4 USL games in your season tix package, above the 17.

This isn't really an Argo discussion point but:

Vancouver has no history of Vcup and CCL success and does not take it all that seriously. They are happy to be in the quarters but didn't really work all that hard to get there.

CCL is important to Manning and RSL under him never played a USL squad in CCL. TFC will likely play much the same team they played in the Voyageurs - ie. rest a few but starting keeper and rotate the DP's and the mids. Do you want to go over the squad we played in the Voyageurs in detail to see how un USL it was?

Yes, Mexican and US teams often play their B squads and until Victor M gets the seeding changed (likely the year after the CPL starts), the one Canadian candidate will play a Mexican or a US team. But don't for a second think that TFC will not be taking that competition seriously.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I doubt they are 4th priority.
Probably alternate weekends with us starting in june.

CCL is not really a priority, teams are playing their USL squads ... Vancouver gave Vcup/CCL tickets free to their season ticket holders this year because of the crap teams they were fielding ... the games are a joke unless u make it to the knockout round in february/march. you are really getting 3-4 USL games in your season tix package, above the 17.

I cannot wait. I look forward to them more than any other.

[Fort York Redcoat]

^ still not going to say what's not working eh?

Not sure which will come sooner, you identifying specific things that aren't working or Trump releasing his taxes. My money's on you but I am starting to worry.

Not sure that article was aimed directly at you, Pook.

It was everywhere a couple days ago.

[redcard]

I doubt they are 4th priority.
Probably alternate weekends with us starting in june.

CCL is not really a priority, teams are playing their USL squads ... Vancouver gave Vcup/CCL tickets free to their season ticket holders this year because of the crap teams they were fielding ... the games are a joke unless u make it to the knockout round in february/march. you are really getting 3-4 USL games in your season tix package, above the 17.

Argos are 4th priority for game dates, it is mentioned earlier in this thread and was confirmed by an exec I believe Manning mentioned it...and CCL matches are still TFC matches I dont think it the 5 day rule between Argos games and TFC only applies to league matches. A TFC CCL match is still played on the grass, could you imagine the fall out if they are playing on a torn up field?
I

[Pookie]

Not sure that article was aimed directly at you, Pook.

It was everywhere a couple days ago.

Oh, absolutely sure that it wasn't aimed at me.

I just took advantage of the opportunity to see that he was posting something, probably looking in at the responses and may want to actually weigh in on the issue as opposed to telling us... again... that the Argos don't sell as many tickets. Just reminding him as to what the actual question is.

I'm even willing to help the negative side of the discussion based on current evidence.

If I were him, I would highlight that while the ground share has been relatively flawless to this point (no lines, roof is nice, grass is pristine, etc), the current trend in TV Ratings means that TFC supporters should keep the attention on the promise of "first priority."

Ratings drive game decisions, as we see regularly in the NHL when Vancouver-Toronto games are changed to 4pm PST in order to appease fans in the East. Now, these are two different leagues but 2/3 of MLSE are heavily vested in the Argos which clearly are the ratings winners. And they are complaining right now about less than ideal game times, looking for standard times for their fans and probably looking at where to maximize both gate and TV revenue.

As time goes, I'd be pretty leery about TFC being able to stand up to those conditions in the Board Room. Right now, ground share is sensitive so TFC have benefited (for the most part) with primary treatment and dates. Memories are short though and times change. Moving Argo games in the future is likely an easier decision.

That's where I would focus and something about this ground share that may not work long term.

See? Wasn't so hard

[Phil]

Argos are 4th priority for game dates, it is mentioned earlier in this thread and was confirmed by an exec I believe Manning mentioned it...and CCL matches are still TFC matches I dont think it the 5 day rule between Argos games and TFC only applies to league matches. A TFC CCL match is still played on the grass, could you imagine the fall out if they are playing on a torn up field?
I

I had Tim L confirm it and then Manning, the order is
1)TFC
2)Canada
3)International friendlies (non TFC)
4) Argos

[Red CB Toronto]

I had Tim L confirm it and then Manning, the order is
1)TFC
2)Canada
3)International friendlies (non TFC)
4) Argos

Those two middle ones are very different that the two teams playing at BMO on a regular basis.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Oh, absolutely sure that it wasn't aimed at me.

I just took advantage of the opportunity to see that he was posting something, probably looking in at the responses and may want to actually weigh in on the issue as opposed to telling us... again... that the Argos don't sell as many tickets. Just reminding him as to what the actual question is.

I'm even willing to help the negative side of the discussion based on current evidence.

If I were him, I would highlight that while the ground share has been relatively flawless to this point (no lines, roof is nice, grass is pristine, etc), the current trend in TV Ratings means that TFC supporters should keep the attention on the promise of "first priority."

Ratings drive game decisions, as we see regularly in the NHL when Vancouver-Toronto games are changed to 4pm PST in order to appease fans in the East. Now, these are two different leagues but 2/3 of MLSE are heavily vested in the Argos which clearly are the ratings winners. And they are complaining right now about less than ideal game times, looking for standard times for their fans and probably looking at where to maximize both gate and TV revenue.

As time goes, I'd be pretty leery about TFC being able to stand up to those conditions in the Board Room. Right now, ground share is sensitive so TFC have benefited (for the most part) with primary treatment and dates. Memories are short though and times change. Moving Argo games in the future is likely an easier decision.

That's where I would focus and something about this ground share that may not work long term.

See? Wasn't so hard

And look you got to mention TFC weak spots AND end on a productive aim for supporters who are (and should) be wary of this groundshare.

You raise a great (and NEW) point (THANK YOU) concerning these time changes.

But do these standardized, maximized times conflict with TFC?

It would be a bit funny to me if they did since (wait for it, comparison of the 2 sports coming, you're gonna love it)

Neither team can agree on what constitutes the BEST time their game is played.

I can't speak for gridiron fans but we're only months away from our annual NEW SCHEDULE Thread where no one agrees on it.

[Phil]

Those two middle ones are very different that the two teams playing at BMO on a regular basis.

agreed, but that is the scheduling priority.

[Pookie]

Neither team can agree on what constitutes the BEST time their game is played.

For sure. Though I would wager that both don't necessarily want mid week games from a gate perspective though I suspect that's where CCL/Concacaf will have to go.

Both would likely push for weekend games, holidays through the fall. From a TV perspective, going up against NHL doesn't work but that primarily a TFC focus given the season start and end dates. So that leads to Saturday afternoon or Sunday matches for the Reds.

Going up against NFL probably doesn't work for the CFL and their best bet would be Fridays/Saturdays through the summer? (Not an expert here by any stretch)

Which doesn't leave a lot of time for ground repair if TFC gets a Sunday match. Alternate weeks help but throw in some National Games or just the scheduling challenges of both leagues and that will bring this to the surface.

I've been impressed that the schedule has worked thus far. But both will be looking to improve ratings and/or gates on an annual basis so think that this is where the most likely source of conflict will be going forward.

[jabbronies]

Next season will be different for TFC. Home games will be spread out a touch more thanks to the stadium being ready to go right at the start of the season. However, CCL does put us back to square one where games with the Argos may be closer together, meaning Argos will have to deal with some crappier times and dates.

The Argos only started to see poor attendance starting in 2010:
https://stats.cfldb.ca/team/toronto-argonauts/

Where did the 10,000-15,000 people who used to attend games go? Are you telling me that Argo fans are that fickle that they don't go and support their team unless all boxes are checked? (Perfect game time, perfect game day, perfect weather conditions)?

At what point do you finally tell Argo fans to fuck off and move the team elsewhere?

[TFC Tifoso]

I wouldn't say fickle.....but in comparison to the other sports in the city their fan base is probably much older on average....and I'd guess that it takes older people a bit more to get them out of the house as opposed to younger.....especially considering many are not in the 416....

I don't think you'd move the team to spite the fans....but if the league does not have a team in the country's largest city it kinda makes the league as a whole look very silly, regardless of cash flow problems....

[BelfastBoy]

Next season will be different for TFC. Home games will be spread out a touch more thanks to the stadium being ready to go right at the start of the season. However, CCL does put us back to square one where games with the Argos may be closer together, meaning Argos will have to deal with some crappier times and dates.

The Argos only started to see poor attendance starting in 2010:
https://stats.cfldb.ca/team/toronto-argonauts/

Where did the 10,000-15,000 people who used to attend games go? Are you telling me that Argo fans are that fickle that they don't go and support their team unless all boxes are checked? (Perfect game time, perfect game day, perfect weather conditions)?

At what point do you finally tell Argo fans to fuck off and move the team elsewhere?

In the late 90's they were only getting 18-20k despite winning back to back Grey Cups. The next decade the ownership papered the Rogers Centre and in the last 6 years owners weren't willing to continue with losing money.

If the Argos were to go from Toronto you may as well fold the CFL or make it an all western Canada league.

[Fort York Redcoat]

For sure. Though I would wager that both don't necessarily want mid week games from a gate perspective though I suspect that's where CCL/Concacaf will have to go.

Both would likely push for weekend games, holidays through the fall. From a TV perspective, going up against NHL doesn't work but that primarily a TFC focus given the season start and end dates. So that leads to Saturday afternoon or Sunday matches for the Reds.

Going up against NFL probably doesn't work for the CFL and their best bet would be Fridays/Saturdays through the summer? (Not an expert here by any stretch)

Which doesn't leave a lot of time for ground repair if TFC gets a Sunday match. Alternate weeks help but throw in some National Games or just the scheduling challenges of both leagues and that will bring this to the surface.

I've been impressed that the schedule has worked thus far. But both will be looking to improve ratings and/or gates on an annual basis so think that this is where the most likely source of conflict will be going forward.

But...CCL has always been midweek. Usually Tues or Wed. It's the model. It should be ok with everyone here. Same with a Wednesday game here and there. That's pretty standard, too.

It's the Argos that have the issue here. I HAVE followed in the past and since the big TSN injection they spread games around the weekend to maximize how many games they can televise. The best matches they TRY to put on a weekend for travelers and the rest fall where they may. The rest of the league accepts it because they've committed to it regardless. Toronto, though...

This isn't even a CFL specific thing. NFL started it with their Thursday and Monday nights that have become things to circle on a sched vs moaning about the competition with the wiggles concert traffic or insert Toronto event competition here.

This scheduling has been blessed this year and will be easier next year but we aren't through the first year yet.

I don't fear CCL OR National team games. We lost regular(frequent) games for at least a cycle.

[Ivy]

In the late 90's they were only getting 18-20k despite winning back to back Grey Cups. The next decade the ownership papered the Rogers Centre and in the last 6 years owners weren't willing to continue with losing money.

If the Argos were to go from Toronto you may as well fold the CFL or make it an all western Canada league.

ive been hearing people say that, but why? What is it about the Argos or Toronto that's keeping the CFL together?

[TFC Tifoso]

ive been hearing people say that, but why? What is it about the Argos or Toronto that's keeping the CFL together?

nothing more than optics/symbolism I assume....it would look pretty poorly on the league if the country's largest city doesn't have a team in it.....

if the country's largest city can't do it, how can anyone else kinda thing.....I'm also assuming that the average person doesn't know or care that the league/team is already bleeding money and has been for a while.....
I mean we're all aware, because of the relation to TFC/BMO Field and how it affects us, but I wonder how many of even the TFC fans/supporters knew of CFL/Argos financial status before the connection to TFC/BMO Field came in to play....

[OgtheDim]

ive been hearing people say that, but why? What is it about the Argos or Toronto that's keeping the CFL together?

TSN revenue. Without it, each team has millions less per season. For a long time, its been the one thing each team can count on.

[spe18]

Next season will be different for TFC. Home games will be spread out a touch more thanks to the stadium being ready to go right at the start of the season. However, CCL does put us back to square one where games with the Argos may be closer together, meaning Argos will have to deal with some crappier times and dates.

The Argos only started to see poor attendance starting in 2010:
https://stats.cfldb.ca/team/toronto-argonauts/

Where did the 10,000-15,000 people who used to attend games go? Are you telling me that Argo fans are that fickle that they don't go and support their team unless all boxes are checked? (Perfect game time, perfect game day, perfect weather conditions)?

At what point do you finally tell Argo fans to fuck off and move the team elsewhere?

And how do you define "perfect" weather conditions? Seems like it's either too hot or too cold for them lol

[spe18]

I wouldn't say fickle.....but in comparison to the other sports in the city their fan base is probably much older on average....and I'd guess that it takes older people a bit more to get them out of the house as opposed to younger.....especially considering many are not in the 416....

I don't think you'd move the team to spite the fans....but if the league does not have a team in the country's largest city it kinda makes the league as a whole look very silly, regardless of cash flow problems....

And yet for 20 years, the NFL, the world's biggest sports league, didn't have a team in it's 2nd largest city, in the economic powerhouse of the world.

[Blizzard]

And yet for 20 years, the NFL, the world's biggest sports league, didn't have a team in it's 2nd largest city, in the economic powerhouse of the world.

True but in a small country like Canada, Toronto's importance in a nine team league is much more proportianally important than LA is in a 32 team NFL.

[Amir FC]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cs_fJjKXEAE5emC.jpg

[OgtheDim]

Yeah, there's an equivalent on the North East corner that is TFC.

[BelfastBoy]

True but in a small country like Canada, Toronto's importance in a nine team league is much more proportianally important than LA is in a 32 team NFL.

Also, the Argos are the villains of the CFL, which is weird because they have the least fans. But the other CFL cities need to heap their contempt for Toronto upon the Argos. There is no way the CFL works without the Argos. I just wish they would play in a facility that is designed for CIS/ CFL football i.e. one of the universities or Lamport.

[Blizzard]

Also, the Argos are the villains of the CFL, which is weird because they have the least fans. But the other CFL cities need to heap their contempt for Toronto upon the Argos. There is no way the CFL works without the Argos. I just wish they would play in a facility that is designed for CIS/ CFL football i.e. one of the universities or Lamport.

They'd still need to double Lamport in size. Varsity will never be expanded. York is the only possible alternative in the future but that's hardly likely either.