Argos to BMO decision - Wednesday, May 20th

[MightyDM]

I don't think it's self righteous to declare the project viable when the facts are that it has been.

We can discuss facts or I guess I can buy you and your Strawmen a beer, which ever is more interesting.

Of course a rainy day might change it... for a game or two. But by and large, it's dry in Toronto more often than it is wet. The summer has about 9 days of rainfall in each of July and August and totals 3.1inches. Those are the facts of the situation.

The Argos don't play in the spring so we really just concern ourselves with Mid June through whenever MLS wants to end its season (which may turn into February at the rate they are going).

I'm not sure if you've been on BMO over the years. We rented it when it was turf and rented it when it was grass in the early days. I can tell you that my experience on the grass was like they held a junior golf clinic the day before. It was chewed and full of potholes like you would expect on a city pitch that isn't watered... only thing missing were the weeds.

What we have now is miles better than what we've ever had.

Now maybe it rains for 40 days, I read that happened in a book once. Maybe floods unleash a herd of gophers. Maybe Woodbine closes and MLSE move them in. (That's 3 beers I owe your buddies)

But for the most part, I'm going to comfortably assume (based on facts) that next summer will have more sunny than rainy days and those days that are rainy will give this excellent grounds crew time to cope and repair... using that "extra field" they grow... prior to the next game.

I have been on the pitch to coach when it was turf, and on it as grass.

the pitch now is very good, I agree. But to suggest that rainfall is unlikely is completely contrary to facts and history. Mud Bowl? Fog Bowl ( look them up, they refer to classic CFL games in Toronto that weather severely affected). Perhaps it never rains in Southern California but historically it has in Toronto in September October and November.

Question: does the CFL season include those months or only the July and August whose drier weather you quote? We know they include MLS games.

[MightyDM]

I call bull shit. I listened to the Dean Blundell show every morning back in the day from like 2007 to 2010 and sporadically there after. He never once, as far as I recall, said any back handed or snide comments about TFC or soccer in general. I do recall them doing lengthy, comedic segments about how the Argos have no fans in Toronto and constantly berating that franchise. However, nothing about TFC. They even had a jersey and scarf pinned up inside the old EDGE studio location, which was located on Yonge, a few blocks south of Dundas.

Blundell and and team were supportive of TFC as a fan experience from the beginning.

[MightyDM]

Umm 80mm is just over 3 inches of rain which is what I said.

If we see rain during matches the following could happen:

1. Pitch is fine
2. Pitch is not fine but repairable
3. Pitch is shit

... 2 of the 3 options are manageable. The 3rd, if unplayable, would likely result in a match being rescheduled to when the pitch is repaired.

Worst case scenario, they slog through a rain soaked game (or the reminants of a rain soaked game) in which the conditions become muddy and/or the balls don't roll true. The same thing happens during matches played in soccer only stadiums... such as UEFA competitions in France in 2016... in which the pitch was compromised by repeated use during a stretch of wet weather. The only solution to that is a dome. No one wants that do they? (And yes you can have a dome with real grass... but I think we taxpayers are done handing out corporate welfare to MLSE for stadiums aren't we?)

You can either worry or get on with it. There is no evidence to support your worry thus far though.

Pookie, that statement is ridiculous. " There is no evidence in a dry summer to support the fact that in normal wet weather something different will happen". Come on.

[Pookie]

^ that's not what I am saying at all.

Clearly outlined scenarios if there is rain and we may have a rough game or two but what is true is that it is highly unlikely that it will rain on every Argo match. Which means that the bulk of the ground share will most likely be like it is today. Just fine.

Here's a question.... but first a headline:

"State of pitches prompts concern at Uefa after bad weather in France"

That was in June of this year and as a result of unusual amount of rain, the scenario you are worried about.

What are they doing? Extensive repairs and considering delaying matches until the pitch is playable. The end result, the games go on sooner or later on a good surface. Which is exactly what would happen here.

My question to you is this. Why do you have expectations of perfection on a ground share with a football team when the rare weather you worry about could have an impact, as it did, with just multiple soccer games? If anything, the fact that they are growning a 2nd pitch that they weren't doing before the Argos, puts us in a better position to weather (no pun intended) the storm.

[Fort York Redcoat]

This retread sod as it were doesn't need to be expanded upon just yet. These "back up pitches" are great for peace of mind in sunny weather. Feel free to reference them since the club did but ever try to lay a pitch with only a week or 2 to set? It's a nice thing they are doing just in case but I hope those backups aren't necessary. Hell I hope they just don't THINK they are necessary for the rest of the season.

[Pookie]

^ what's your advice to the groundskeepers in France that were struggling with multiple soccer events and rare weather?

Go to artificial turf since rare heavy rains, multiple use and grass don't mix?

Or accept the fact that on the off chance that the pitch isn't playable due to the above that they would simply delay the match until it is?

End result, games played in good conditions.

[Fort York Redcoat]

^ what's your advice to the groundskeepers in France that were struggling with multiple soccer events and rare weather?

Go to artificial turf since rare heavy rains, multiple use and grass don't mix?

Or accept the fact that on the off chance that the pitch isn't playable due to the above that they would simply delay the match until it is?

End result, games played in good conditions.

Pook, we talked about it when it happened.

The comparison to our situation doesn't fit. I mean if you WANT to talk about rare weather and bad scheduling that's cool. The weather is the weather but a bad schedule is what can be avoided in both scenarios.

My issue isn't with the poor groundskeepers but those expecting miracles out of them making schedules as they do. We won't need to even broach the replacement issue till end of season. No rush.

[paul-collins]

Hey, you know what will totally make TFC fans happy with the ground share? Rescheduling games!

BTW, the complaints about French pitches for the Euro should consider this: All of the pitches in question had been replaced 3 weeks before the games. So how's the Hamilton sod option looking now?

[noimpactinmtl]

Headers have been proven to be quite dangerous too. The brain just is not meant to take such an impact especially with younger kids.

They banned headers in grade school soccer down in the states. Concussion rate actually remained the same.

Source

[Pookie]

Hey, you know what will totally make TFC fans happy with the ground share? Rescheduling games!

Hmm.

We have an outdoor stadium and your assertion is that TFC fans should never ever expect to have games rescheduled?

BTW, the complaints about French pitches for the Euro should consider this: All of the pitches in question had been replaced 3 weeks before the games. So how's the Hamilton sod option looking now?

Looks better than not having a Hamilton sod option.

[bones]

^ what's your advice to the groundskeepers in France that were struggling with multiple soccer events and rare weather?

Schedule a 13 v 13 Rugby League with full equipment at the same fucking time...

[paul-collins]

Schedule a 13 v 13 Rugby League with full equipment at the same fucking time...

and an AC/DC concert!

[paul-collins]

We have an outdoor stadium and your assertion is that TFC fans should never ever expect to have games rescheduled?

No, but if it's *because* of the groundshare, fans will be rightfully upset.

Looks better than not having a Hamilton sod option.

I'm only saying it's not a guaranteed successful strategy. Better to not have to use it at all.

And you can't deny that more pitch use will result in higher likelihood that the replacement sod will get used. (Well, most people wouldn't. You've already tried to do just that by suggesting this summer is all the data we need.)

[Blizzard]

We were told (Phil or Pint might remember more details) that hybrid is actually really costly to replace.
because of the strands weaved together...it is very difficult to replace say just between the hashes of a pointy ball field.
You'd have to strip it all out...so you might as well not even bother.

MLSE has a an entire field or 2 or 3 near hamilton ready to be harvested and transplanted to BMO with minimal notice if the Argos completely destroy a field during a rain storm.

The strands aren't weaved together. They drive single strands into the pitch generally four per 2cm square. The roots of the grass do grow around the artificial fibres though.

You wouldn't have to strip it all out but as those fibres are driven quite deeply into the soil, it gets complicated to transplant sections.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Hey, you know what will totally make TFC fans happy with the ground share? Rescheduling games!

BTW, the complaints about French pitches for the Euro should consider this: All of the pitches in question had been replaced 3 weeks before the games. So how's the Hamilton sod option looking now?

Also before we get to that can we please note that we're (for some reason) comparing the regions biggest event in the sport (Euro), with an eternal groundshare with some other sport with different priorities when it comes to surface.

If we were to host the Gold Cup outright like we hosted the U-20 womens and the pitch was affected it would NOT be the same for me as weekly Gridiron.

I realize that's not the case for everyone.

[Pookie]

No, but if it's *because* of the groundshare, fans will be rightfully upset.

I'm only saying it's not a guaranteed successful strategy. Better to not have to use it at all.

And you can't deny that more pitch use will result in higher likelihood that the replacement sod will get used. (Well, most people wouldn't. You've already tried to do just that by suggesting this summer is all the data we need.)

Feel like I'm watching CNN here on your last point.

The data this summer shows it's working. I believe that I have said that there might be a game or two down the road in which the pitch becomes a concern. Yep. I have.

In which case though there are strategies in place to deal with it and ensure that the game is played on a true surface. I am sure in everyone's plan book, rescheduling a game is THE last resort. Headaches all around. But if all other repairs fail, that would be the only option.

And you know what? That would ensure that while on a different date, the game is played on a true surface. Which is the goal.

Until they go about cancelling TFC games and playing them up at the OSA, I'm going to side on "hey look, things are working" camp because, well, they are.

[Pookie]

Also before we get to that can we please note that we're (for some reason) comparing the regions biggest event in the sport (Euro), with an eternal groundshare with some other sport with different priorities when it comes to surface.

If we were to host the Gold Cup outright like we hosted the U-20 womens and the pitch was affected it would NOT be the same for me as weekly Gridiron.

I realize that's not the case for everyone.

Are you saying that if it was soccer only... but soccer all the time from TFC to OSA leagues to Rec leagues to CSL to even rentals you'd be ok with it if that type of consistent usage meant that TFC had to reschedule a game?

[Fort York Redcoat]

Are you saying that if it was soccer only... but soccer all the time from TFC to OSA leagues to Rec leagues to CSL to even rentals you'd be ok with it if that type of consistent usage meant that TFC had to reschedule a game?

Is the Gold Cup held every week? There's your answer. But way to test the water. I didn't like when BMO was declared a facility for public use regardless of sport or surface.

But if TFC had to share with say their USL side it would be different than another sport. Obviously...I think.

EDIT:

Apologies for the tone. But this has definitely been addressed in the first 100 pgs. I'll reset before replying again.

[Pookie]

Is the Gold Cup held every week? There's your answer. But way to test the water. I didn't like when BMO was declared a facility for public use regardless of sport or surface.

But if TFC had to share with say their USL side it would be different than another sport. Obviously...I think.

EDIT:

Apologies for the tone. But this has definitely been addressed in the first 100 pgs. I'll reset before replying again.

No worries. Passionate subject.

Don't you think it's just a wee bit odd to say that if the pitch were ruined under ground share with a soccer team that it's ok but if it's ruined with a CFL team that's inexcusable?

("Ruined" being an overly simplistic term of course that would only result in a rescheduling of the game to a time when the pitch was repaired... no one is implying cancelling games)

In the end, pitch is damaged either way.

And the idea of being upset with the CFL team, whose presence actually resulted in the corporate welfare that got the roof everyone wanted, seems misplaced to me.

Try to get millions for expansion from the government to support a marquee matchup between the York Region Shooters and the Toronto Atomic FC.

[Fort York Redcoat]

No worries. Passionate subject.

Don't you think it's just a wee bit odd to say that if the pitch were ruined under ground share with a soccer team that it's ok but if it's ruined with a CFL team that's inexcusable?

("Ruined" being an overly simplistic term of course that would only result in a rescheduling of the game to a time when the pitch was repaired... no one is implying cancelling games)

In the end, pitch is damaged either way.

And the idea of being upset with the CFL team, whose presence actually resulted in the corporate welfare that got the roof everyone wanted, seems misplaced to me.

Try to get millions for expansion from the government to support a marquee matchup between the York Region Shooters and the Toronto Atomic FC.

RESET.

I said it would be different, not ok. Also damage less likely to happen as they are playing with the same priorities in mind.

And your insisting that the Argos deal to play their season there was part of it from the intro of the reno. Only one time or annual events such as the NHL game and the Grey Cup were in the cards.

Please don't tell me those aren't sufficient to warrant that much money injection but an Argos season is.

We won't know for a fact when they decided to give up on the Argos proper home of Downsview or York because it'll be withheld till some dark chapter blurb of someones biography is leaked.

Nobody wants to tell and at this point I don't care who failed just that they did.

[Pookie]

Not an Argos season but an Argos team that unlocks $10m Grey Cups.
You can't host Grey Cups with a permanent, poured concrete North End.

Sort of like TFC unlocked the share of SUM.

And yes, I am saying that the Argos were part of the conversation from the get go. The conversation that didn't stop with the failed joint York U site and didn't stop but continued with the Downsview training partnership.

and ultimately sold to 2/3rds MLSE and the move to BMO earlier than 2017. They were exploring grass options for shared use well before the team was sold.

And look. Multiple Grey Cups. Corporate welfare. All that's missing was the bow.

[paul-collins]

The data this summer shows it's working. I believe that I have said that there might be a game or two down the road in which the pitch becomes a concern. Yep. I have.

Here's the thing, though - many (including myself) have interpreted your statements on the current data as declarative (ie no problems now, and so no need to worry). Perhaps that is wrong.

What we have been saying is that this is *atypical* in terms of rainfall data, and that this summer's success is in no way indicative of how the turf will respond when the more regular weather returns. (Professionally, I have worked as a hydrologist and drainage engineer, so I'm somewhat sensitive to judging anything based on this summer's weather.)

I think that's all. I prefer a wait and see approach, and in no way am ready to declare the groundshare efforts an unmitigated success.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Not an Argos season but an Argos team that unlocks $10m Grey Cups.
You can't host Grey Cups with a permanent, poured concrete North End.

Sort of like TFC unlocked the share of SUM.

And yes, I am saying that the Argos were part of the conversation from the get go. The conversation that didn't stop with the failed joint York U site and didn't stop but continued with the Downsview training partnership.

and ultimately sold to 2/3rds MLSE and the move to BMO earlier than 2017. They were exploring grass options for shared use well before the team was sold.

And look. Multiple Grey Cups. Corporate welfare. All that's missing was the bow.

And you look - If it was only Grey Cups that came to BMO we wouldn't have these weekly updates.

[Pookie]

^ all good paul. I get that saying it's working in a TFC thread on this topic in particular is going to draw some criticism.

I am more on this narrative as I was in the negative camp and have been pleasantly surprised. Even went to my first ever Argos game and was impressed with how they treat both teams in this ground share. And that I think the sky is falling narrative, while possible, has probably run its course IMO. Any challenges are most likely to be one offs.

That said, I won't dissuade anyone who wants to keep an eyebrow raised in MLSE's direction. I gave up my seasons and arguably my net passion for the Reds (been to a game just once this year) as a result of my experiences with them.

[Pookie]

And you look - If it was only Grey Cups that came to BMO we wouldn't have these weekly updates.

And why would the CFL host a grey cup in a city without a team?

And if the Argos survived and had their own stadium, why would they give up the revenue of a grey cup to BMO?

If you want ice cream, you need a cone (or bowl) to hold it.

[Fort York Redcoat]

And why would the CFL host a grey cup in a city without a team?

And if the Argos survived and had their own stadium, why would they give up the revenue of a grey cup to BMO?

If you want ice cream, you need a cone (or bowl) to hold it.

Ya

Not my cone. Don't want the ice cream. I get the convo. We had it pages and pages ago. You can't convince me this had to happen. It was the easiest thing to do despite the minority of resistance.

Next is the "Well you can't do anything about it so..."

This is what I'm doing. If you don't see the reasoning or purpose in it, that's up to you. It's why this thread has gone off the rails so much. People are over it or have accepted that nothing will change it.

If you don't think it's productive or constructive - there's plenty of other discussion going on.

On a side note THIS is the part of the discussion that derails as Anti-Argo/CFL blah blah. And it's not what I'm saying. I'm not wishing it ill. But despite it NOT being my worry I want the best for them. And that was elsewhere.

[Pookie]

The best thing for all of us is for billion dollar sports ownership conglomerates to pay for their toys out of their own pockets.

And I agree, if that's the case then all should have their own.

But unfortunately power and politics are linked and we have Apple paying less than 1% overseas and in our city, some of the richest owners in the game expecting and getting culture dollars.

Ugh. I'm going for a beer. Virtual toast. Have a good night.

[SoccMan2]

Guess what " Pookie" believe it or not BMO Field actually was making a profit back in the day when it was mainly TFC only ya! All the soccer hating media and soccer haters in general would have never envisioned a stadium in Canada being profitable with mainly TFC and other soccer events, but it was. Could an Argos only stadium be profitable I highly doubt it, but guess what "Pookie" a mainly soccer only stadium was to the bewilderment of all those soccer haters out there. Oh and by the way "Pookie" I'm beginning to think you might be the same person who post on the voyageurs forum who seems to be on there to keep reminding us all of the greatness of the CFL and the Argos are you the same person, I think the name they go by is McCarthy or something where heaven forbid you say something negative about the CFL or the Argos and that person is always ready to shoot you down Lol!

[Pookie]

^ um no. You can send your conspiracy theory to the Trump campaign.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Guess what " Pookie" believe it or not BMO Field actually was making a profit back in the day when it was mainly TFC only ya! All the soccer hating media and soccer haters in general would have never envisioned a stadium in Canada being profitable with mainly TFC and other soccer events, but it was. Could an Argos only stadium be profitable I highly doubt it, but guess what "Pookie" a mainly soccer only stadium was to the bewilderment of all those soccer haters out there. Oh and by the way "Pookie" I'm beginning to think you might be the same person who post on the voyageurs forum who seems to be on there to keep reminding us all of the greatness of the CFL and the Argos are you the same person, I think the name they go by is McCarthy or something where heaven forbid you say something negative about the CFL or the Argos and that person is always ready to shoot you down Lol!

Pookie is not that user. Not even close.

And if Toronto Alumni and residents hadn't kiboshed the Varsity stadium deal that would've been the best thing for Canadian gridiron in this part of the country. York would be second, Downsview third. BMO has proven to be such a long way from 4th so far. But that's not my problem past the pitch.

They played last night and we get an international break and a weekend on the road.