too much drama people...jus support the team,lets see what happends next season and then protest..do u really think they wanna piss off 20k season ticket holders and the tenant that will use bmo 23 to 25 times a year to please someone that has 8 to 10 dates at bmo
Qman, sorry your numbers are completely full of it. There's a very simple way to look at the overall earning potential, all revenue potential, growth potential, etc: Look at the value of the teams.
The Argos right now are worth less than $10 million, that's Cdn $. Braley tried to get $10 million but couldn't. The main thing now was to find a buyer that would keep the team in Toronto and cover the potential losses. Yes the Argos may do better at BMO, but it's not a guarantee. The Als did great after their move to the McGill stadium, but now apparently aren't doing as well. (And that's with only the NHL competing for sports entertainment dollars in Montreal, and no major league baseball or basketball like in Toronto.) For TSN/Bell this was at the minimum a defensive move. The other CFL cities love to hate Toronto, so will watch those games, and Toronto is important for the national ad market. Worst case, the Argos purchase helps to maintain the status quo for CFL, which is pretty decent overall considering the broadcasting dollars. If the Argos do better attendance- & viewing-wise after moving to BMO, that's just gravy for Bell. If they drop down again after the shiny newness wears off in 2-3 years, and folks realize how crappy the weather can be by the lake in October & November, and also find out how hard it is to get to BMO Field, then TSN/Bell will still be happy that things didn't get worse overall.
Compare that with MLS & TFC. Expansion fee for LAFC was $110 million, that's US. Montreal Impact paid US$40 million in 2012.
According to Forbes, Toronto FC was worth $121 million US in 2012, with annual revenue of $31 million, in a smaller stadium than today. TFC's value is definitely higher today -- and that's after winning nothing (unlike the Argos, who recently won the Grey Cup). I realize part of the value in MLS teams is in the SUM partnership, but it is what it is. CFL teams just don't have anything similar that they can take advantage of.
I believe the actual paid attendance for the Argos has been significantly lower than TFC, with fewer home games. Their maximum attendance will be almost 5000 lower than TFC at BMO, due to the retractable stands required for CFL. They've always said: max 30k for TFC after the reno, and max 25k for the Argos. (I don't know if those numbers will change after the latest adjustments, but we haven't heard anything about that.) They may bring in extra temporary seating for Grey Cups, but not for regular league games. That's why the south side roof will be so high & crappy. (Or they may play the Grey Cups at Rogers Centre.)
Note also the Argos roster has to be much bigger, with related costs, and they have fewer games & fewer home games. Their attendance will likely go up at BMO Field, which will help, but as mentioned above, it's really a hail mary pass by them, they have no idea if it will last.
Last edited by Auzzy; 05-21-2015 at 10:14 PM.
can anybody tell me what SUM is and how much money they make from that.
Soccer United Marketing. It's the U.S. TV deal that includes all national team games, MLS games and I think Open cup and Champions league games. Most of the money made off the deal is related to the USMNT, but MLS and the USSF were smart enough to package the two to tie them in together to ensure the growth of the league. I don't know off the top of my head how much money SUM is worth or how they divide it up.Originally Posted by reggie
great thx...
Here's a few words about SUM: http://www.mlssoccer.com/advertise/ They also do the marketing etc. for the Mexican National Team, so likely make more money off those broadcasts in the US. Plus also the Gold Cup in the US.
thx for that info..side note...jus read on that site that josh simpson career is over..too bad good player.
Doesn't that mean instead that they will win only 1/3 of what they used to?
didn't make any comments on the argos.
Just was commenting on how people bring up this $60m revenue number all the time like its fact. It was just commenting how when you do the quick math the club isn't bringing that revenue right now. Its a target for some day.
Everybody is blasting ML$E this past week, when they are significantly subsidizing this clubs operating losses and injecting significant capital investment. Now allot of this is adding $17m in salary vs pre-TL, without really get increasing revenue yet (yes ... SUM cash flow has increased due to the success on TV of the USMNT and MLSE probably sold some more suites ... but butts in the seats is basically the same as last 5 years).
I guess what i am saying is were lucky that ML$E owns the club b/c if we had a different owner, they probably would be operating like the Philadelphia Union, spending to the cap and collecting $1-3milion every year.
someone might have more current numbers, but i believe SUM is worth $800M. MLS owns 75% of it. So $30m value per team.
Most of the value is based on the TV rights jointly to USMNT and MLS broadcastings. $90m per year. So $5m per team. USMNT rights probably account for 95% of this value based on strong ratings for USMNT qualifying games. So, value of SUM will be determined by growth and profitability of USMNT broadcasts.
Sorry may have mis-read some of the stuff, this thread is getting pretty long...
Some days I really wish we had a cost-conscious, smart owner. Teams like DC, NE, Columbus, Dallas, KC and others seem to do much better overall than TFC, on much lower budgets. Find some great South & Central American players for decent salaries, with lots of growth potential if they get transferred to other leagues after a few years. I always get worried what will happen with our ticket prices if TFC ever does a bit better on the field...
Last edited by Auzzy; 05-21-2015 at 10:56 PM.
Shame. Great player and an exciting one at that. Wish him all the best.
Another brain fart from LT? "Argos boss Tanenbaum says the NFL is coming to Toronto … eventually"
http://www.thestar.com/sports/argos/...ventually.html
I seriously doubt it -- but might that be our best bet now for getting the Argos back out of BMO Stadium...? On the other hand, would the Argos want to play in a much larger NFL stadium?
Last edited by Auzzy; 05-21-2015 at 11:02 PM.
$800M seems way too high. Now given SUM is not just USMNT - it's also those cash grab friendlies every summer, etc, etc... but number just strikes me as being out of line compared to other sports teams. And we're only talking about a portion of the whole business given it's nature.
Larry T wants NFL team and will do anything to get it. However, NFL wouldn't move into Canada until they have some sort of guarantee that CFL wouldn't be negatively affected by their presence in this market (for legal reasons). So Larry T buying Argos wasn't a surprise for anyone who have been following NFL to Toronto storyline.
Larry T along with Rogers and Bon Jovi failed to buy Bills earlier in the year. But however, NFL is looking to grow and try to become more global so they might see Toronto as a potential market to put NFL team there.
Sorry, my bad. its $600m. Sold 25% for $150ish, not $200m. So $20m value per club.
Its all free cash flow. The are getting $90M per year for TV, plus those Mexican in the US friendlies must make money, etc. Value is based on potential growth in USMNT qualifier TV ratings. Risk would USMNT TV ratings plateau or nosedive. MLS rights are basically worthless based on poor ratings.
Last edited by Qman; 05-22-2015 at 12:09 AM.
Seattle has had an exciting, winning team from day one. The doom stems from the double failure of both the team and the experience. One is survivable; both, less likely.I'll preface by saying that I think there are going to be games where the pitch is cringeworthy - just from things out of their control, like maybe a schedule jam, or playing pointyball on a really wet day or the technology not living up to the hype or whatever. And I'll also add that I've gone from attending 10+ matches a year to only a couple.
But I'm just not sure why anyone expects any different result here? I mean I'm hearing all of the arguments about lines on the field making us look like a joke and the playing surface is sacrosanct and that great players won't want to come here ..... but then you look and Seattle plays on a cement NFL carpet and they still draw insane attendance and it didn't stop Dempsey and Martins from taking their money. Jermaine Jones is in his 30's and still trying to hang on for the 2018 world cup and he didn't put a "I'm not going to a team with turf" stipulation in his contract.
I get why the supporters/hardcore fans are pissed off. But I wonder if the average fan in the greys/reds with the expensive season tickets really gives a shit either way? And that's who MLSE is worried about most. They (upper management/ownership) must think this is just a big nothingburger .... the majority of fans will still keep coming, and there will be an endless supply of players who want one of those 30-60 DP slots.
I do agree it sends out the wrong message - but it's just kind of part and parcel of the whole way MLS is developing - yes the money is growing and they are expanding like crazy, but it's growing in this really weird and lumpy way and turning into a travelling spectacle (3-4 DP's) and a mindset of just making money in the present tense rather than this overarching vision of being a truly great league 10 years from now.
I mean we're probably going to a 30 team league with 16 playoff teams eventually (like the NBA) ..... this league is already a deviant. Sharing stadiums with pointyball, half the teams playing turf, just adds to the whole carnival of it all.
So I'm not sure why this is the hill people want to die on??
But don't worry about any of that, make sure you spend your $15.50 on a pint of beerand make some noise with these thundersticks
The troublemaker speaks: "Babcock’s hiring steals the Argos’ thunder; anger ensues"
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...ticle24535314/
LOL
with all this shit flying at MLSE these days,they should have no prob keeping the grass green at BMO.
Hahaha
Losing $5 million per year? With a hard cap of $5 million? Hmmmmm.
But seriously, that's quite a loss leader to keep the CFL afloat.
The NFL already has the Toronto market on TV, they don't need 8 games in a stadium to increase that. Just like they don't need a team inLA. Larry T will never spend the kind of money needed to get an NFL team (a billion for the team and a stadium with no government money). If he would do "anything" to get an NFL team he would have bought the Bills. They didn't "fail" to buy the Bills, they didn't want to spend that much money. and MLSE prove to us everyday why the NFL is right not to allow corporate ownership.
The comments below were...englightening, even for the troll fest that is the Globe.
Yes, lets blame all future woes for the Argos on the fact a journalist did his job and asked a question about the #1 sports story in this town when he had the opportunity.
Its put up or shut up time for their fans too. Lets see if they put up in October 2016 in the cold and rain.
Exactly. And I just don't get why they decided to announce the Argos stuff on the day Babcock was scheduled to make his decision, in this hockey town. Did they really think hardcore TFC supporters would be distracted by that? Bell & Larry T want to sell the Argos to the masses. No idea why they risked having that overshadowed by hockey news. They got what they deserved.
Oh and Argos attendance might still look pretty good in October 2016. But how about Oct/Nov 2017 & 2018?
Last edited by Auzzy; 05-22-2015 at 06:28 AM.
I just heard that they are shopping a team in LA again. That that is what TL might do next.
I realize and acknowledge all the red tape and constraints on this action that you've shared I just think it's foolhardy to say "never" about it(or anything right now).
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
I'm confident it won't be in my lifetime, but that may say more about my age than anything else...
I just wish all this talk of the NFL coming here would die so that someone could build a smaller football stadium for the Argos, university football and high school championships - a kind of national Canadian football stadium. Toronto could certainly support that kind of stadium (I think) but it won't happen as long as there's this talk about the NFL coming here so we have the Argos at BMO.
The NFL isn't really a business (although a couple weeks ago they did give up their tax-exempt status) it's a private club of billionaires. Sure, maybe someday a Toronto billionaire will be willing to spend the money to join, but it's a lot of money to host 8 home games a year.
Wont challenge your math. Whatever the end number on ticket sales, half of it gets shared with the league.
BR I agree with your wish but to look at what's gone before I'll ask a question as to what's more likely:I'm confident it won't be in my lifetime, but that may say more about my age than anything else...
I just wish all this talk of the NFL coming here would die so that someone could build a smaller football stadium for the Argos, university football and high school championships - a kind of national Canadian football stadium. Toronto could certainly support that kind of stadium (I think) but it won't happen as long as there's this talk about the NFL coming here so we have the Argos at BMO.
The NFL isn't really a business (although a couple weeks ago they did give up their tax-exempt status) it's a private club of billionaires. Sure, maybe someday a Toronto billionaire will be willing to spend the money to join, but it's a lot of money to host 8 home games a year.
The building of a gridiron specific stadium to house the Argos and some other team that is around 30,000.
The building of a stadium that is too big for the team but is shoehorned into some bigger one time event.
I loved to commonwealth or Olympic stadium sell out but every time they do it makes news since its so seldom. It's a waste and a shame they can't build something with the intention of filling it for a full time tenant.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
Wow- has anyone in Toronto history ever danced as much as Larry T did this week?
- bought Argos (although he might have only contributed a toonie) to make his Bell friends happy - their TSN-CFL broadcasting was sinking.
- dismisses TFC fans pitch quality concerns at the Argo presser (with enough vinegar, I thought, to undercut the Tim L "happy for both franchises" letter)
- approved the hiring of a hockey coach to make his Rogers friends happy - their NHL investment is in choppy waters
- then tops it off with his "eventual NFL" stance...
I am in the "too old to think Toronto NFL team in my lifetime" camp.... but maybe NFL dreaming is the secret sauce that keeps Bell and Rogers together in MLSE?
I'm beginning to think they say it just for the journalists who want to believe someday they will be covering an NFL team.
Just as an FYI
If anyone want's to know more about SUM and the finances involved, there is a very good thread on Big Soccer called "the-szymanski-rebuttal". Some good SUM info gleaned from the USSF accounts that are published every year and the DC United stadium financial case documentation.
Well worth a read if you want to know more about MLS finances.
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