QFT!Originally Posted by Auzzy
QFT!
Getting to the suburbs without a car is next to impossible.
Fact, TFC averages roughly 20K attendance per season. Argos, average about the same, but dipped last year to a hair under 18K. But TV support isn't even close. You can twist the stats any way you choose - and I'm sure you will, but at the end of the day - it is not even close. Argos finances from last year are nearly irrelevant in this discussion. They will be moving to a location where they operating costs should decrease, revenue opportunities increase, and as of this year - TV money increases $2 million. Not to mention Grey Cup is a cash windfall.
Talking big won't get you anywhere with anyone, so I think we can leave the "embarrassing" comments aside.
Fact of the matter is - TFC is small time. Argos are also small time. But neither is going anywhere any time soon - and both are going to have to flex a bit here and work together. All the crying and carrying on from the TFC fans on what a travesty this is just really doesn't matter at the end of the day. Your wavering support isn't going to change anything other than the viability of TFC.
I'm sure TFC and the Argos alike, would both love to have their own digs and control over every revenue stream. But it's just not in the cards.
Both may be small time but at least one of then had their own stadium for 9 years and turned a profit while doing it. When was the last time the Argos had their own stadium? Or turned a profit?
2 years ago on the profit. And BMO is a multi-use city owned stadium. So TFC doesn't own their stadium any more than the Argos owned Rogers Centre.
Lots of dud teams are the primary tenants of their stadiums in every league. Not sure what that proves?
When's the last time the Argo's attracted a top end athlete within their sport from outside their league? The fact that TFC has signed the likes of Bradley, Altidore, Defoe and Giovinco in the last couple of years tells me that they're a little bit bigger than the small time Argo's. There's media coverage of this team outside of Canada, North America, you can't say the same about the Argo's or the CFL.
And most people who went looked at those number and went, "No way!!!!"
Look, ur the guy who threw out the 4 to 1 support amount on here so don't get huffy when somebody calls you on it.
You want to talk about revenue.
3 summer friendlies for TFC bring in more revenue then a grey cup game. So for the Argos operationally to make money off of the Grey Cup compared to TFC, they'd have to have a Grey Cup at BMO every 3 years - sure the Prairie teams would love that.
$60 million in revenue. That's not small time for any NA sports league below the big 4 (and I'm sure there are years when Columbus BJ & the Florida NHL teams would love to get that).
So, no the Argos have a LOOOOOOONG way to go to get to TFC revenue numbers. Face it, TSN bought the Argos in order to protect their TSN advertising options.
Regardless, the big issue isn't whether one team makes more money or is supported more.
The big issue is whether the Desso can survive a CFL season, MLS, rugby and Canadian MNT and Canadian WNT games.
I'm pretty sure NOBODY wants to play on a field that looks like some badgers went over it.
Here's a look at the interest in both teams based on google searches.. (only canada, but feel free to go worldwide too if you want ot skew the numbers more in TFC's favour).
http://www.google.com/trends/explore...=CA&cmpt=q&tz=
Fascinating stats there.
The number 1 place that looks for Argo info - Oshawa. Followed by Newmarket and then Toronto. Province second to look for information is SK.
TFC - Toronto and then Vaughan. Hardly anybody outside of Ontario though.
So, exactly as we thought.
Argos - 905 and people from elsewhere
TFC - Toronto and 905
& the TFC search items - tickets and schedule
Not surprising the Argos attendance is lowering. People are not trying to find out when games are or looking for tickets. And just wait until those people have to take the Bathurst streetcar.
Got news for you, non of these guys are top footballers, they're just guys ML$E massively overpaid for. In baseball terms they are "AA" players
Bradley - NO
Altidore - NEVER EVER, marginal MLS star
Defoe - NO
Giovinco - benchplayer/loaned out most of his time with Juventus (although you could make an argument for 2012)
But but those numbers are too real and too big of sample to judge a team's popularity since too many people of all walks of life use Google and other forms of communication apps (like Twitter and Facebook). We need some bias Canadian company surveying random 4,000 people (mostly old folks) in Canada to judge something instead since that's real numbers [/sarcasm]
Off Topic but since Varsity Stadium was mentioned earlier in this thread and perhaps we could use something to lighten up, found a cool image of it on the Urban Toronto forum, tifo and all:
thats a load of crap....all those guys could play in england italy spain if they wanted...
Your smoking crack if you believe TL's $60M revenue number. I doubt its much more than $20-$25m.
just do the math if they sold every seat $800/SSH * 30000k = $24m ... but as we have seen for the first 2 games we are doing around 20,000ish. So thats only $16m. And thats the primary revenue source.
Last edited by Qman; 05-21-2015 at 06:12 PM.
What about suites and other source of revenue? Tim Leiweke had no reason to make such comments, but he did for some reason. He obviously knows financial health of this team since he see numbers himself while no one seems to question his comment, so hard to doubt him on that.
To be fair - the Google numbers do miss all the older folks that don't use the Internet. Which is a lot of their fan base.
+ box seats, sponsorship revenue, merchandise sales (DP's drive revenue especially Giovinco ) and of course the unknown amount of revenue the get from SUM.
MLSE aren't in the game to lose money. And they aren't shelling out for the DP's out of the goodness of their hearts. They certainly aren't doing it for the TV ratings. There is money being made here.
to all the argo trolls...you are in bmo now so go to your own forums and talk argos.
TL did not say they are hitting 60 mil,he said this club has potential to hit that down the road.
I definitely miss the old place. I saw a lot of good matches there through the years the first being West Ham v Bologna in the early 70's!
Off Topic but since Varsity Stadium was mentioned earlier in this thread and perhaps we could use something to lighten up, found a cool image of it on the Urban Toronto forum, tifo and all:
There is another angle to look at. Football is a rapidly growing sport in North America, especially in younger demographics.
The MLS has some catching up to do to become big time and tap into the larger demographics, but it is improving slowly. If it ever gets its shit together and starts driving into the higher tiered quality - it is going to be a big deal. The growth potential is massive. If I think about the strides the league has made in quality since we came into the league - it is head and shoulders above what it was.
All of this adds up to a real potential for TFC to actually become "a Bloody Big Deal" in the next 10 - 15 years.
Can you say the same about the CFL/Argos? That is an honest question btw - not a comment to troll. What is the growth potential for them?
same here David...some great players and great teams and right off the subway.
If there is any small solace to take in this whole situation, there is the comedy of the fact that the Argos are now owned by 2/3rds of MLSE, which means they will never win anything again.
off topic...was that the riot game when the italian fans attacked the ref?
thats why i said $20-$25m. Just take $16m and add another couple million for suites and say $4m in sponsorship. could add payments from SUM in their too. I'm just trying to be realistic and add up the numbers today.
Its seems TL went from says his goal was to be a $60m revenue team one day, to it is.
Did anyone else even look? There's no point in owning just the Argos for the gate receipts, this isn't 1995. This isn't about either TFC or the Argos, it's about the broadcast revenue from the CFL and MLS. Bell gets all the revenue from the CFL, from every game and every team. It has nothing to do with the gate receipts for the Argos. If there was a stadium anywhere else they could have called "Toronto" they would have put them there. Or, if every other team in MLS had a soccer-specific stadium with grass, they would have kept that in Toronto.
But really you're right, the only issue is the turf and the game day experience. Both will suffer but probably not enough for MLSE to worry about. They've never worried about not maximizing revenue from each team by going deep into the playoffs and winning championships so likely they will be happy with the revenue they get from this. It's too bad, but that's the ownership we have. Now I understand the NFL's insistence on individual and non-corporate ownership.
I'll preface by saying that I think there are going to be games where the pitch is cringeworthy - just from things out of their control, like maybe a schedule jam, or playing pointyball on a really wet day or the technology not living up to the hype or whatever. And I'll also add that I've gone from attending 10+ matches a year to only a couple.
But I'm just not sure why anyone expects any different result here? I mean I'm hearing all of the arguments about lines on the field making us look like a joke and the playing surface is sacrosanct and that great players won't want to come here ..... but then you look and Seattle plays on a cement NFL carpet and they still draw insane attendance and it didn't stop Dempsey and Martins from taking their money. Jermaine Jones is in his 30's and still trying to hang on for the 2018 world cup and he didn't put a "I'm not going to a team with turf" stipulation in his contract.
I get why the supporters/hardcore fans are pissed off. But I wonder if the average fan in the greys/reds with the expensive season tickets really gives a shit either way? And that's who MLSE is worried about most. They (upper management/ownership) must think this is just a big nothingburger .... the majority of fans will still keep coming, and there will be an endless supply of players who want one of those 30-60 DP slots.
I do agree it sends out the wrong message - but it's just kind of part and parcel of the whole way MLS is developing - yes the money is growing and they are expanding like crazy, but it's growing in this really weird and lumpy way and turning into a travelling spectacle (3-4 DP's) and a mindset of just making money in the present tense rather than this overarching vision of being a truly great league 10 years from now.
I mean we're probably going to a 30 team league with 16 playoff teams eventually (like the NBA) ..... this league is already a deviant. Sharing stadiums with pointyball, half the teams playing turf, just adds to the whole carnival of it all.
So I'm not sure why this is the hill people want to die on??
But don't worry about any of that, make sure you spend your $15.50 on a pint of beerand make some noise with these thundersticks
Last edited by Blowing Bubbles; 05-21-2015 at 06:56 PM.
I also think it's going to be pretty lol for the Argos .... within 3 years I can see them tarping the upper deck that's same side to the TV cameras because 30,000 is just way too big for them.
Anyone that's either lived in or traveled to Edmonton/Regina/Calgary and been around on CFL gamedays and flicked on sports radio just knows what a "CFL town" feel is and Toronto just doesn't have it.
Like I talked above about the lack of vision thing .... CFL is kind of a joke too. University football is massive in Quebec and they haven't figured out how to exploit it. If they did it right they could probably take Western U's lego stadium and make it CFL standard as well ..... it's kind of a joke that they use their TV contract to defacto subsidize a team in Toronto when there are other places they could go if the media side wants to subsidize the product .... places that actually give a shit about the CFL.
Quebec City would love a team and get 30k out. But, it don't sell commercials to ad execs.
Not much to say really. The dream is over, for now. It was not to be.
Feels like there should be some kind of wake.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
"Feels like there should be some kind of wake"
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