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    This seat counting is hilarious.

    The fact Neil Davidson is invoking the move as much as he can makes it moreso.

    Doesn't change the fact the Argos will have a better atmosphere while TFC will hope to have the same with a depreciating pitch.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Phil, there aren't 8000 or 10000 people who just ate their tickets Saturday.

    "Outlets" aren't paying for tickets they don't sell
    That makes sense, I thought I would ask.

    I really avoid getting into the nitty gritty of sales, the further away from that stuff I am, the happier for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Nobody can say with a straight face that those thousands of seats are no shows
    I can honestly say at Sat's game there were a lot of people who bought tickets and didn't make it.

    My friend who was supposed to be there missed the ENTIRE GAME stuck in traffic.
    Took him an hour and a half to get from Parkside to where he finally found parking near Bathurst.

    A few other friends missed the first half because of traffic.


    Now, obviously this is their own faults for not giving themselves enough time, knowing the CNE was on... but there were ALOT of other people who made the same mistake.
    Last edited by gdg_9; 08-24-2015 at 09:10 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gdg_9 View Post
    I can honestly say at Sat's game there were a lot of people who bought tickets and didn't make it.

    My friend who was supposed to be there missed the ENTIRE GAME stuck in traffic.
    Took him an hour and a half to get from Parkside to where he finally found parking near Bathurst.

    A few other friends missed the first half because of traffic.


    Now, obviously this is their own faults for not giving themselves enough time, knowing the CNE was on... but there were ALOT of other people who made the same mistake.
    Kipling and Jane were closed as well. It was shit day for transit in general.

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    For our first game, my son and I parked at Front St and Blue Jays Way at 3:10pm and walked from there to BMO, arriving at 3:55pm. it wouldn't have been so long if we didn't have to weave our way through the crowds at the Ex. I also got a seat for a friend and he didn't make it to the seat until the 16th minute. It was pretty brutal getting around Toronto that day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Tell you what though ensco, it feels fuller then last season. Maybe that's just the upper East being there but there are WAY more people around me then last season.

    Actually, I got physical anecdotal proof of that.

    That pic above is over my section - I'm in behind one of those people. Last season, there was nobody behind me and nobody to the sides of me for 4-7 seats. This season, there are actually people showing up each game. Maybe somebody showed up at minute 20 last season...maybe. This season - I'm in the stadium within 10 minutes of opening and there are people sitting down before I get there.

    Giovinco? Maybe. But the west feels fuller then last year.

    Yeah West looks fuller too from my perspective sitting in the east stand. I never even bother trying to guess at attendance until the 70th minute. Beer is not available after 65th and 1000s show up later or are in councourse. There is about a 10 minute window of full capacity before some people start heading home after the 80th minute.

    I didn't pay that much attention this game or try to guess at attendance as I had two of my kids with me so was a little pre-occupied.

    When I do try and guestimate I take the percentage approach by stand. From what I remember and could see around 70th minute the west stand was at least 80% full, south 100%+ and north 80%. My section which is in the south half of the lower east stand was at least 80% full, but to be conservative I will say lower east stand was 60% and Upper east 20% (that is only ~1500 people up top!).

    It just adds up to over 20,000 for me. That is still 1000s of empty seats but at same time there a lot of people at the match and more than last season! Also the parking was an absolute gong show!

    Giovinco, opposing team DPs, playoff position are all factors driving attendance upward.

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    Not to be a dick, but does anyone here actually believe they can stop the Argos to BMO now?


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    Quote Originally Posted by zeelaw View Post
    Not to be a dick, but does anyone here actually believe they can stop the Argos to BMO now?
    Stop? no. It hasn't been about that since the announcement.

    It's become about what the team are doing for season ticket holders to inform them what is happening with the pitch and assure them the quality will not sacrificed for a second tenant.
    Last edited by Fort York Redcoat; 08-24-2015 at 10:00 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fort York Redcoat View Post
    Stop? no. It hasn't been about that since the announcement.
    K, just asking because I saw the banner out again last week (I know not RPB). Is this just the discontent thread now?


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    Quote Originally Posted by gdg_9 View Post
    I can honestly say at Sat's game there were a lot of people who bought tickets and didn't make it.

    My friend who was supposed to be there missed the ENTIRE GAME stuck in traffic.
    Took him an hour and a half to get from Parkside to where he finally found parking near Bathurst.

    A few other friends missed the first half because of traffic.


    Now, obviously this is their own faults for not giving themselves enough time, knowing the CNE was on... but there were ALOT of other people who made the same mistake.
    On the other hand, like us, we know many people that went to this game because the TFC ticket included free admission to the CNE. It was an opportunity to go early, check out the sights at the X, eat and drink at prices that are considerably lower than what we would pay at BMO Field. We had our change of clothes, put on our jerseys and enjoyed the match.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zeelaw View Post
    K, just asking because I saw the banner out again last week (I know not RPB). Is this just the discontent thread now?
    Now that we've covered Argos attendance (for shits and giggles, I guess) we can use this thread as an Argos to BMO update thread. We could and should see news and discussions closer to renewals when the team is more sensitive about any issues STH's have.
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    I had a friend who didn't make it til the 60th min... he is an idiot and should have just taken the train with me but thats a different story.

    Same thing will happen this weekend, get down early and enjoy yourself. Take the train, i know it can be pricey and feel like a sardine can post game but you save yourself a fair amount of hassle.

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    does anyone have a rendering of what they are doing to either the north or south end?

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    its just some MLSE minion making up a number. We have seen this for years ... but it might be league mandated to inflate numbers because it seems to happen throughout the league with biggest "violators" being Montreal, Columbus, Dallas, Chicago, houston, NYRB

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    Ok, I kinda got this thread off topic and although I'm still trying to figure out how Houston is consistantly ranked as higher value then most of the league by Forbes, I won't go there.

    *******


    The Argos at BMO ramifications won't be addressed until season tickets are, and that is not going to happen until we are done in the playoffs. This team doesn't need our money in August, like most of the league who are already or soon will be into season ticket drives. The price point will be set based on if we get in and how we do if we get there. So, no need to bring up ill feeling until then.

    As for what those prices will be given where we end up, that's probably another thread too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Phil, there aren't 8000 or 10000 people who just ate their tickets Saturday.

    "Outlets" aren't paying for tickets they don't sell
    When are are talking about outlets, would that be something like groupon?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red CB Toronto View Post
    When are are talking about outlets, would that be something like groupon?
    think his is saying "ticketmaster"

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    Still don't get not being a SSH, because the argos are coming.
    Its not going to change anything. They are already building the Argos dressing rooms under the east stands.
    MLSE is just going to sell bradley to some other team and save $6m, if ticket sales are down.
    If you want the club to continue to invest, you should continue to invest as well. Thats what i do. If you don't, watch on tv and TFC goes back to being like philly or RSL.
    Last edited by Qman; 08-24-2015 at 02:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qman View Post
    Still don't get not being a SSH, because the argos are coming.
    Its not going to change anything. They are already building the Argos dressing rooms under the east stands.
    MLSE is just going to sell bradley to some other team and save $6m, if ticket sales are down.
    If you want the club to continue to invest, you should continue to invest as well. Thats what i do. If you don't, watch on tv and TFC goes back to being like philly or RSL.
    It will change how often one sees the pitch go to shit live.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qman View Post
    Still don't get not being a SSH, because the argos are coming.
    Its not going to change anything. They are already building the Argos dressing rooms under the east stands.
    MLSE is just going to sell bradley to some other team and save $6m, if ticket sales are down.
    If you want the club to continue to invest, you should continue to invest as well. Thats what i do. If you don't, watch on tv and TFC goes back to being like philly or RSL.
    I want my money invested in TFC, not into building an Argos locker room under the east stand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I want my money invested in TFC, not into building an Argos locker room under the east stand.
    To be fair, it's really the other SSHs of the other MLSE properties that are paying for the Argos locker room. Do TFC even generate enough to cover the annual cost of the 3 DPs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pdogg View Post
    To be fair, it's really the other SSHs of the other MLSE properties that are paying for the Argos locker room. Do TFC even generate enough to cover the annual cost of the 3 DPs?
    MLSE was swimming in TFC money until last year. Even still, I'm sure they're making a good profit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pdogg View Post
    To be fair, it's really the other SSHs of the other MLSE properties that are paying for the Argos locker room. Do TFC even generate enough to cover the annual cost of the 3 DPs?
    Expected revenue from TFC this season was ~50 mil... which would generate a break even scenario. Also the franchise value has gone from 10mil initial invetment to Forbes valuing them at 150 mil (i hate using forbes numbers as they are essentially made up).

    The key for them is making the playoffs and being able to raise prices next year and hopefully adding demand for the luxury products they offer (suites, clubs etc). This will be interesting as MLSE is putting up all the money for the stadium renovation but MLSE do not own the argos. Therefore for Rogers to recoup their investment it has to come from the MLSE operations at the stadium (TFC and stadium rentals) as well as advertising $$ from broadcasts.

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    I think we been through this on this thread and others, ML$E is subsidizing losses at the club in the $10+m range. They were reportedly making $2-3m per year before adding $17m in salary. Revenue hasn't increased that much: - friendlies have been busts/money losers, club seats are always empty, suites are empty (but might be paid for), attendance (actual bum's in seats) is down to flat ... but the SUM dividend has definately gone up. Plus they are amortizating all these stadium improvements.

    If enough people top being a SSH (investing in the club), MLSE is just going to say enough is enough and sell one/all of the DPs and go back to the previous model (or even worst sell the club or move the club.)



    The money Bell is spending on Argo renos, doesn't affect the club ... although the effect of Argos playing on grass is still to be seen.
    Last edited by Qman; 08-24-2015 at 07:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pdogg View Post
    To be fair, it's really the other SSHs of the other MLSE properties that are paying for the Argos locker room. Do TFC even generate enough to cover the annual cost of the 3 DPs?
    gross revenue alone they are probably $15M in SSH + friendlies revenue; another $5M in single game holder/group sales; another $10M in concessions and merch at the game...so there's $30M right there, which with the dollar where it is, is sadly only $22.5M...should cover it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qman View Post
    I think we been through this on this thread and others, ML$E is subsidizing losses at the club in the $10+m range. They were reportedly making $2-3m per year before adding $17m in salary. Revenue hasn't increased that much: - friendlies have been busts/money losers, club seats are always empty, suites are empty (but might be paid for), attendance (actual bum's in seats) is down to flat ... but the SUM dividend has definately gone up. Plus they are amortizating all these stadium improvements.

    If enough people top being a SSH (investing in the club), MLSE is just going to say enough is enough and sell one/all of the DPs and go back to the previous model (or even worst sell the club or move the club.)
    This isn't quite accurate. The stadium itself has been making $1-2 million a year - the City reports a profit in the range of 750,000 - 1,000,000 each year, and it gets half. Assuming the original deal for half the profit included just concessions, etc. and ticket revenue went to MLSE only, it's about $50 times 18,000 times 18 or around $16 million. Add TV and ancillary revenue and they are doing OK

    the suites on the West side are usually full, don't know where you get empty from, there are always people there on game day.

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    i'm talking incremental revenue pre-Defore to now. The stadium profit is already in the 2-3m they were making 3yrs ago. The incremental East suites aren't full .. but might be spoken for. incremental club seats aren't full. Real attendance is probably down slightly vs last year and two years ago (so say tix sales and concession are about the same)

    cdn TV is zip. SUM is a big win, but they also sold 25% of SUM.


    prizby really good point on Cdn$. Revenue is probably way down versus 2 years ago if they didn't hedge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qman View Post
    i'm talking incremental revenue pre-Defore to now. The stadium profit is already in the 2-3m they were making 3yrs ago. The incremental East suites aren't full .. but might be spoken for. incremental club seats aren't full. Real attendance is probably down slightly vs last year and two years ago (so say tix sales and concession are about the same)

    cdn TV is zip. SUM is a big win, but they also sold 25% of SUM.


    prizby really good point on Cdn$. Revenue is probably way down versus 2 years ago if they didn't hedge.
    I believe Tim Lewieke went on record and said new suites were sold out for this season and amount of money they're getting from suite sales covers one of DP's salary per year.

    According to Forbes, TFC revenue last year was $32 million USD(?), so if that's case, then I wouldn't be surprised to see this year's revenue increase by $8-10 million.

    The fact TFC is valued $175 million USD (and their value going see another increase this year) says a lot what direction TFC is heading and how strong this market is for soccer despite lack of results on the field. So MLSE selling TFC now or near future will be bad move unless MLS folds in few years (which we all know isn't going to happen).

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC07 View Post
    I believe Tim Lewieke went on record and said new suites were sold out for this season and amount of money they're getting from suite sales covers one of DP's salary per year.

    According to Forbes, TFC revenue last year was $32 million USD(?), so if that's case, then I wouldn't be surprised to see this year's revenue increase by $8-10 million.

    The fact TFC is valued $175 million USD (and their value going see another increase this year) says a lot what direction TFC is heading and how strong this market is for soccer despite lack of results on the field. So MLSE selling TFC now or near future will be bad move unless MLS folds in few years (which we all know isn't going to happen).

    seba's salary if i recall correctly. No way they sold all the suites based on the massive vacancy.
    Even if they did, as prizby noted the fall in the c$ has wiped all that out since their revenue is in C$ and most costs are in US$


    The forbes value is a joke. no way TFC would sell for $175m to a 3rd party losing $10+million a season. There main asset is the SUM ownership and its only worth 20-30m.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qman View Post
    seba's salary if i recall correctly. No way they sold all the suites based on the massive vacancy.
    Even if they did, as prizby noted the fall in the c$ has wiped all that out since their revenue is in C$ and most costs are in US$


    The forbes value is a joke. no way TFC would sell for $175m to a 3rd party losing $10+million a season. There main asset is the SUM ownership and its only worth 20-30m.
    SUM value is much more than $20 million. That total would be the annual profits, the cost of buying those profits would be much higher.

 

 

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