Argos to BMO decision - Wednesday, May 20th

[mook-life]

Actually it's 10,000 fans (you know fans who actually paid to go to games)

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Source: http://www.tsn.ca/bell-tanenbaum-in-...nauts-1.268118

Rogers Centre gets too much criticism, but I don't hear anyone complaining when Rogers Centre host Grey Cup though.

30K average wasn't actual paid attendance. They heavily papered those numbers during those days (funny enough, Argos' owners run of out of money which CFL turn to Braley to take over Argos in the end, but since then, they couldn't find anyone interested in buying Argos from Braley)

TV ratings doesn't mean much when you end up losing money and can't find a place of your own to play.

Soccer fans are reason why TFC has passionate fanbase. BMO field is dump (worst than Rogers Centre), but it was soccer fans who created the buzz despite lack of on-field success. This is pretty well documented

Maybe you should ask yourself why CFL fans are so ignorant when comes to Toronto and their sports teams?

BOOM

[Qman]

Actually it's 10,000 fans (you know fans who actually paid to go to games)

[/FONT][/COLOR]

Source: http://www.tsn.ca/bell-tanenbaum-in-...nauts-1.268118

Rogers Centre gets too much criticism, but I don't hear anyone complaining when Rogers Centre host Grey Cup though.

30K average wasn't actual paid attendance. They heavily papered those numbers during those days (funny enough, Argos' owners run of out of money which CFL turn to Braley to take over Argos in the end, but since then, they couldn't find anyone interested in buying Argos from Braley)

TV ratings doesn't mean much when you end up losing money and can't find a place of your own to play.

Soccer fans are reason why TFC has passionate fanbase. BMO field is dump (worst than Rogers Centre), but it was soccer fans who created the buzz despite lack of on-field success. This is pretty well documented

Maybe you should ask yourself why CFL fans are so ignorant when comes to Toronto and their sports teams?

enough bashing each other already, there were a bunch of games last year were their was less that 20 people in my section (104) and far less than 10,000 at BMO. This will continue this year, especially the wednesday night games.

Skydome has terrible sitelines for champions league fictures. Was terrible for liverpool. Same for CFL. Just crappy place to be in period. No way BMO is worst than Skydome ... except during cold fall downpours.

[TFC07]

enough bashing each other already, there were a bunch of games last year were their was less that 20 people in my section (104) and far less than 10,000 at BMO. This will continue this year, especially the wednesday night games.

Skydome has terrible sitelines for champions league fictures. Was terrible for liverpool. Same for CFL. Just crappy place to be in period. No way BMO is worst than Skydome ... except during cold fall downpours.

You didn't hear TFC fans whine about side lines when they played at Rogers Centre. In fact, I would say TFC-LAG CCL game was probably best game (atmosphere wise) in our history. I didn't hear much complains about side lines during Grey Cup either.

I only hear this whining coming from Argo fans and use it excuse not to go to games.

I don't know about you, but BMO field is awful place compare to Rogers Centre with no roof. Only thing BMO field has over Rogers Centre is sideline, but outside of that, Rogers Centre is much better venue and located at better location than BMO field (which feels more like American High School stadium located beside lake).

Don't forget, Argos and their fans wanted to play in domed stadium and ditch exhibition place while wasted our tax dollars in process. I have no sympathy for Argos and their whiny fanbase who play victim card instead of directing their anger at their owners and CFL for not stepping up to fix their team.

[GabrielHurl]

Its sightlines - a sideline is on the field

[Pookie]

did you not see wembley after the pats played there....

No but as I have said a few times, Hull Football and Rugby play on the same hybrid turf. Rugby Friday, Football Sunday. Lines visible yes. Pitch is good shape.

Not everything is destined to be a disaster.

Something to be weary of for sure. But there are examples of this working.

[Pookie]

Don't forget, Argos and their fans wanted to play in domed stadium and ditch exhibition place while wasted our tax dollars in process. I have no sympathy for Argos and their whiny fanbase who play victim card instead of directing their anger at their owners and CFL for not stepping up to fix their team.

Does your irony meter go off when you re-read your quote?

If directing anger appropriately is the main point, 2/3rds of which sports ownership group is likely to own the Argos?

Name the corporate President that began talking about using TFC's rented home for Grey Cups and Winter Classics?

And for bonus points, which billion dollar corporation, fronted by the same President, has claimed TFC will gross $60M in revenue yet cannot and will not finance a stadium of its own for TFC and TFC alone?

[TFC07]

Does your irony meter go off when you re-read your quote?

If directing anger appropriately is the main point, 2/3rds of which sports ownership group is likely to own the Argos?

Name the corporate President that began talking about using TFC's rented home for Grey Cups and Winter Classics?

And for bonus points, which billion dollar corporation, fronted by the same President, has claimed TFC will gross $60M in revenue yet cannot and will not finance a stadium of its own for TFC and TFC alone?

Well I was talking about Argos current and past owners here. We still don't who will end up owning Argos (sounds like TFC wouldn't have same owners as Argos though). Also keep in mind that Bell/TSN did own Argos in the past which it didn't go well for them.

I don't know what you're on, but TFC problem isn't financial, but more on-field. TFC is in fine shape despite lack of results while other team no matter what goes on the field is falling behind and have been losing money in decades while wasting tax payer money (Sky Dome) since their little protest back in 80's.

Yes, I agree TFC should ditch BMO field but MLSE seem hell bent to have team play in downtown core even it means playing at stadium which they don't own. It doesn't help that MLSE extended TFC lease agreement with City of Toronto for another 20 years either.

[ensco]

There is more nonsense in this thread than in any in TFC or RPB history.

[OgtheDim]

I think you guys need to realize the Argos pull 18,000-19,000 fans per game on average. .....Why are TFC supporters so Ignorant to the CFL?

Read the whole thread, not just the last couple of pages.

I'm a Ti-Cat fan who had Argo Seasons in order to see CFL for awhile and am now a TFC SSH. So, no, I'm not ignorant of the CFL. I'm also not "OH MY GOSH THE CFL IS THE BEST THING EVER AND RULES CANADA!" which seems to be found a lot on CFL discussion boards. TSN is about as biased and chearleeding a network as one can get, for CFL and curling (another sport I now reasonably well). They rarely talk about financial woes within the CFL. If you want to know the health of CFL teams, you have to get to actual games and talk to fans.

Argos are in trouble in Toronto. They have been papered for decades. As others have indicated, the Argos are not getting 18K per game in the seats and certainly not 18K paid. 10K sounds about right.
Operating any business in Toronto costs you more then in other cities - its expensive here. And people have way more entertainment choices then in any other city.

Demographics for Argo games skews white and 50+ - my generation. (This is different then other CFL cities but not by much, as acknowledged by the new CFL commish). These people don't spend as much in game and are not being replaced. Many of them drive - few of them live close to the downtown core.

Demographics for TFC in this town are about 20 years younger, live closer, spend more and when they leave or become disinterested, others show up.

More importantly for the Argos, the costs of running the Argos are way more then the revenue potential. Argos are stuck with 9-11 revenue generating games. They can only raise so much. TFC has 18 games, at least. Plus TFC can raise money by bringing in international friendlies - they make about $2.5 - 3 million on one of these (IIRC), and can do 2 to 3 a season. That means in 2 seasons, they can make as much as a Grey Cup game, and that's not counting season/playoff revenue.

The money spinning potential of soccer in Toronto is WAAAAY bigger then CFL.


Ultimately, for MLS fans, it comes down to two things.


a) The Argos can do better. Why should the Argos, who have a long history going back to the 50's of not putting one cent into infrastructure (the Argos have not played in an privately built or funded stadium since before WWII) want to play in a space that doesn't fit their demographic (BMO is not easy to get to if you drive) and where they get little to none of the proceeds of concessions? Cause they don't want to spend the money to get the money. (i.e. why should the city and the province subsidise the Argos) If the Argos made financial sense with a 25K arena, go build one in the 905 where most fans live and where the Argos can create positive revenue streams and control their stadium

b) The grass if done wrong would kill TFC. Grass will not work for CFL - Edmonton proved that. And turf is BAD for international friendlies and attracting decent players (no, the VCWC do not count as they really don't want to play there but were forced by the city and the province to justify the expense of retrofitting BC place for the Olympics - if they could leave, they'd go in a heartbeat) . We have yet to see anywhere in the world where Desso (the 90% hybrid stuff that will be laid down before 2016) grass has to put up with gridiron 9-10 times a season and a full season of soccer + 4-5 rugby games + 4-5 Canadian MNT games + 2-4 Canadian WNT games. And as somebody who was distracted by the old yellow soccer lines on Ivor Wynne's field when watching Ti-Cat games, I can tell you that football lines, even faded, on a soccer pitch are awful to sit through.


So...no...its not ignorance.

The Argos really are not a good financial idea for BMO. And, the one element that is necessary for MLS to work at BMO, the field, is jeapordised by this team who, to be blunt, have been a bunch of scofflaws.

The Argos are coming to BMO - that's reality.

But, the grass is a concern, and nobody knows if it will work or not.

[TorontoMetros]

enough bashing each other already, there were a bunch of games last year were their was less that 20 people in my section (104) and far less than 10,000 at BMO. This will continue this year, especially the wednesday night games.

Skydome has terrible sitelines for champions league fictures. Was terrible for liverpool. Same for CFL. Just crappy place to be in period. No way BMO is worst than Skydome ... except during cold fall downpours.

true. I went to about half the home games. anyone thinking there was anywhere near 20 thousand at the games I went to is in serious denial, lol.

lets take an opinion on whats best for the Argos from a Ticat fan. haha

[OgtheDim]

...lets take an opinion on whats best for the Argos from a Ticat fan. haha

It might surprise you to know but most TI-Cat fans do not want the Argos to fold - they just want them to lose.

[reggie]

please please please close this thread....the argos are coming to bmo end of story...can we jus talk futbol and you argo fans can talk football on yr argo forum and we can all live happily ever after.

[TorontoMetros]

please please please close this thread....the argos are coming to bmo end of story...can we jus talk futbol and you argo fans can talk football on yr argo forum and we can all live happily ever after.

or you can just stop visiting it? Its not something that is going away as an issue especially in the next little while.

[reggie]

or you can just stop visiting it? Its not something that is going away as an issue but the bickering is what drags the thread down.

again who the fuck are u...are going to start making fun of my name again

[Mulder]

Maybe you should ask yourself why CFL fans are so ignorant when comes to Toronto and their sports teams?

Because most of the CFL fans know it's a publicly funded facility, owned by the city and not by MLSE or TFC, which the original intent was to be built for the capability of both sports.
Had MLSE just bought or leased the land and built themselves (or buy outright) this debate would have ended long ago. Instead you have a private corporation willing to spend over $100m on a piece of infrastructure owned by city. Even the during the council meeting about this renovation the city & creditors were "grinning" (exact quote) at the prospect of an increase in value on a city owned structure at very little cost to them.

[TheGoodson]

No but as I have said a few times, Hull Football and Rugby play on the same hybrid turf. Rugby Friday, Football Sunday. Lines visible yes. Pitch is good shape.

Not everything is destined to be a disaster.

Something to be weary of for sure. But there are examples of this working.

I stated this earlier in the thread rugby is completely different the american football. The play in rugby is completely spread out over the whole pitch. American football play is concentrated in the middle of the pitch. The damage especially if it is pouring rain will be down the middle of the pitch and that is the problem. Comparing the two sports and how it effects the pitch is apple and oranges IMO.

[Enterprise Captain]

again who the fuck are u...are going to start making fun of my name again

I suspect this might be TorontoMetros from here.

[nascarguy]

mods are you going to do something about this is getting out of hand

[Mulder]

Read the whole thread, not just the last couple of pages.

I'm a Ti-Cat fan who had Argo Seasons in order to see CFL for awhile and am now a TFC SSH. So, no, I'm not ignorant of the CFL. I'm also not "OH MY GOSH THE CFL IS THE BEST THING EVER AND RULES CANADA!" which seems to be found a lot on CFL discussion boards.

It's odd you talk about all this and still attempt confuse the message. While this is your opinion, sometimes seeing you post all these false 'facts' everywhere is getting tire-some.

TSN is about as biased and chearleeding a network as one can get, for CFL and curling (another sport I now reasonably well). They rarely talk about financial woes within the CFL. If you want to know the health of CFL teams, you have to get to actual games and talk to fans.

TSN does a fair enough reporting on the Argos financial troubles without bashing the team or the league, unlike their counterparts downtown. Just do a quick search on their site. I would hardly call that cheerleading and if you want to see cheerleading turn into how Sportsnet promotes the Jays. Sportsnet would be the first to report the financial loss of the Argos, but have never actually reported the amount that the Blue Jays lose each year. That's no balanced reporting.

Argos are in trouble in Toronto. They have been papered for decades. As others have indicated, the Argos are not getting 18K per game in the seats and certainly not 18K paid. 10K sounds about right.
Operating any business in Toronto costs you more then in other cities - its expensive here. And people have way more entertainment choices then in any other city.

During my time as a STH with the Argos, many left due to stadium, and the way Rogers Security treated many Argo fans. In 2009, Argos did an outgoing survey of those who choice not to renew, Rogers Security was the number 2 reason. It really should never be a reason.

More importantly for the Argos, the costs of running the Argos are way more then the revenue potential. Argos are stuck with 9-11 revenue generating games. They can only raise so much. TFC has 18 games, at least. Plus TFC can raise money by bringing in international friendlies - they make about $2.5 - 3 million on one of these (IIRC), and can do 2 to 3 a season. That means in 2 seasons, they can make as much as a Grey Cup game, and that's not counting season/playoff revenue.

When was the last time International friendlies generated 125m in economic impact? Even more importantly, when was the last time these friendlies were universally accepted by the entire TFC fanbase? You are also assuming TFC is making money currently (which at it's present state, is likely not).

The thing about that is CFL at one time went that route of designed imports. It ended pretty badly. I hope it's not a case of repeating history.

Ultimately, for MLS fans, it comes down to two things.


a) The Argos can do better. Why should the Argos, who have a long history going back to the 50's of not putting one cent into infrastructure (the Argos have not played in an privately built or funded stadium since before WWII) want to play in a space that doesn't fit their demographic (BMO is not easy to get to if you drive) and where they get little to none of the proceeds of concessions? Cause they don't want to spend the money to get the money. (i.e. why should the city and the province subsidise the Argos) If the Argos made financial sense with a 25K arena, go build one in the 905 where most fans live and where the Argos can create positive revenue streams and control their stadium

Incorrect, Argos owners contributed to the construction of the Skydome. (A commonly lost fact in all this), and Argo's have not played in a stadium designed as a football first venue since 1976. (The slope of the 1st level of seating ar Rogers centre isn't great for football) .

I to, would rather see their own stadium built north or at Downsview, but stadium's don't get built in this country with entirely private dollars.

b) The grass if done wrong would kill TFC. Grass will not work for CFL - Edmonton proved that. And turf is BAD for international friendlies and attracting decent players (no, the VCWC do not count as they really don't want to play there but were forced by the city and the province to justify the expense of retrofitting BC place for the Olympics - if they could leave, they'd go in a heartbeat) . We have yet to see anywhere in the world where Desso (the 90% hybrid stuff that will be laid down before 2016) grass has to put up with gridiron 9-10 times a season and a full season of soccer + 4-5 rugby games + 4-5 Canadian MNT games + 2-4 Canadian WNT games. And as somebody who was distracted by the old yellow soccer lines on Ivor Wynne's field when watching Ti-Cat games, I can tell you that football lines, even faded, on a soccer pitch are awful to sit through.

The grass worked fine for Edmonton, it was the cost to maintain it as the reason to switch to turf, not because of the condition, and if you distracted by yellow lines at Ivor wynne I really don't know what else to say. It's very easy to tune them out if you are watching the play.

The Argos really are not a good financial idea for BMO. And, the one element that is necessary for MLS to work at BMO, the field, is jeapordised by this team who, to be blunt, have been a bunch of scofflaws.

I maintain that had TFC been winning it's first few seasons, the field would likely have remained turf. Fan's protesting forced MLSE's hand, and ironically, TFC's first 3 seasons at home were better than the first 3 seasons with grass. Countless studies have also proved that turf is safety for athletes than grass, it's really all in the athletes head.

The Argos are coming to BMO - that's reality.

A friend ran into Braley in Burlington, asked about Argos. The deal is already done, it's up to the new owners to announce it when they want to.

[Pookie]

Well I was talking about Argos current and past owners here. We still don't who will end up owning Argos (sounds like TFC wouldn't have same owners as Argos though). Also keep in mind that Bell/TSN did own Argos in the past which it didn't go well for them.

I don't know what you're on, but TFC problem isn't financial, but more on-field. TFC is in fine shape despite lack of results while other team no matter what goes on the field is falling behind and have been losing money in decades while wasting tax payer money (Sky Dome) since their little protest back in 80's.

Yes, I agree TFC should ditch BMO field but MLSE seem hell bent to have team play in downtown core even it means playing at stadium which they don't own. It doesn't help that MLSE extended TFC lease agreement with City of Toronto for another 20 years either.

Fundamentally, you are spinning your wheels. Whether one team is the better franchise and more deserving of their own venue is moot.

While it would be nice for TFC to have its own stadium, and for tickets to be reasonably priced, and for ownership to create a fantastic stadium that we all would love to go to… that's not their mandate. They can talk, as Tim L did yesterday, how BMO with 30,000 fans will be the most intimidating atmosphere in MLS. A wall of loud fans awaiting the visiting team. Of course, reality is that a wall of empty seats will greet the visiting team as the casual fan can't be bothered to show up on time.

They don't really care. They exist to invest money to turn it into more money.

And no matter how you slice it, investing a dollar in TFC and soccer isn't as lucrative as investing a dollar into a multi-use facility and running multiple events around it. They can work calculators down there and that's what their projections have showed. If soccer would generate more than a multi-use facility, that would be the focus. If CFL football was a cash cow and could generate more than a multi-use facility, that would be the focus.

Multi-use, even if it pisses off a subset of their fan base… that generally speaking are paying the lowest rates for tickets… is still more lucrative that a sport specific venue.

It's not TFC vs Argos. It's what it has always been in this city…. MLSE vs Profit.

[Pookie]

A friend ran into Braley in Burlington, asked about Argos. The deal is already done, it's up to the new owners to announce it when they want to.

IMO, next week will be the announcement… with TFC on the road in New England. Gives time for the heat to settle down before the next home game and it can be buried in the hype leading up to the Manchester City game on the 27th. If they are really concerned about fan reaction… which I don't think they are… they will do it on Friday, May 15th before the long weekend.

[Fort York Redcoat]

There is more nonsense in this thread than in any in TFC or RPB history.

Close. But you know the thread that was worse.

[Fort York Redcoat]

It's odd you talk about all this and still attempt confuse the message. While this is your opinion, sometimes seeing you post all these false 'facts' everywhere is getting tire-some.

Mulder, we've spoken about these point by point breakdowns. To clarify, please keep it on point with corrections.

We don't need a personal narrative between two users.

The grass worked fine for Edmonton, it was the cost to maintain it as the reason to switch to turf, not because of the condition, and if you distracted by yellow lines at Ivor wynne I really don't know what else to say. It's very easy to tune them out if you are watching the play.

For example, the above statement I'd like to question respectfully. How can one say grass worked fine somewhere but the operators couldn't maintain it? Isn't that a reason that grass didn't work? It was clearly too expensive to maintain. If there were other factors feel free to expand on it.

Desso will work best for groundshare. That's not what I'll argue over. I argue that it won't work well enough.

[Fort York Redcoat]

i still dont understand why they cant roll on turf for argo games..

Smothers the grass. Not as much impact damage but a different kind of damage.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Any assurances from MLSE are utterly laughable. This organization has zero credibility so I have a hard time believing anything they say when it comes to this matter.

Same opinion but I'll say I reach it a different route.

Assurances of this are laughable because it involves a dedication and vigilance to maintain after every game for as long as the Argos are there. The example or sample base of their test only proves they have the ability to make it passable for some. It earns no faith in what the status of the pitch will be late season.

[Red CB Toronto]

Same opinion but I'll say I reach it a different route.

Assurances of this are laughable because it involves a dedication and vigilance to maintain after every game for as long as the Argos are there. The example or sample base of their test only proves they have the ability to make it passable for some. It earns no faith in what the status of the pitch will be late season.

At the end of the day it is not that it can be done, it is that there is an ongoing commitment regardless of who is at the top to do on an ongoing basis, that is where in my view it could fall short in keeping the pitch to a level of excellence for the Reds.

[Fort York Redcoat]

There is one turf and one grass. They secured a new pitch from downsview for the argos to use alongside the one in the pic there.

One astroturf and one natural grass?

I was hoping that one of them was desso.

[Mulder]

For example, the above statement I'd like to question respectfully. How can one say grass worked fine somewhere but the operators couldn't maintain it? Isn't that a reason that grass didn't work? It was clearly too expensive to maintain. If there were other factors feel free to expand on it.

Desso will work best for groundshare. That's not what I'll argue over. I argue that it won't work well enough.

It would seem that he implied that grass didn't work for other reasons other than being too expensive to maintain.

Saying the play of the field suffered because 'grass didn't work' would be extremely incorrect.

Saying "Grass didn't work for the CFL" is a vague statement to begin with. How did grass not work? did the play on the field suffer? (no, the players, including Ricky Ray, loved playing on grass.) The only complaints came during the colder months when the field became hard. Had Commonwealth had a underground heating system like bmo, Edmonton would likely still be grass. Edmonton estimated $80,000 in yearly savings by switching to turf.

Commonwealth stadium grass didn't work because of all the community events and concerts in addition to the pro sports being played there. An issue that BMO field won't have as it's not a concert venue, and the community events on the field at BMO are severely limited. A reminder has to be made, that it was the City of Edmonton that ultimately made the decision to switch from grass to turf so that the stadium could host more events other than pro football. Does that mean it doesn't work for CFL football? No.

[Fort York Redcoat]

It would seem that he implied that grass didn't work for other reasons other than being too expensive to maintain.

Saying the play of the field suffered because 'grass didn't work' would be extremely incorrect.

Saying "Grass didn't work for the CFL" is a vague statement to begin with. How did grass not work? did the play on the field suffer? (no, the players, including Ricky Ray, loved playing on grass.) The only complaints came during the colder months when the field became hard. Had Commonwealth had a underground heating system like bmo, Edmonton would likely still be grass. Edmonton estimated $80,000 in yearly savings by switching to turf.

Commonwealth stadium grass didn't work because of all the community events and concerts in addition to the pro sports being played there. An issue that BMO field won't have as it's not a concert venue, and the community events on the field at BMO are severely limited. A reminder has to be made, that it was the City of Edmonton that ultimately made the decision to switch from grass to turf so that the stadium could host more events other than pro football. Does that mean it doesn't work for CFL football? No.

The surface suffered from groundshare.

My condolences to all Eskimoes (and Eddies?) fans. I believe we'll soon know their disappointment firsthand.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I see facilities there for soccer, hockey, basketball, cricket, track and field but - shock of shocks - no gridiron football.

The CFL needs to be knocked into young heads if they're going to grow the game. Not bothering, I guess.

Why would they invest in a grass roots for something they don't own? I'm surprised at cricket and track and field but I suppose that can be reasoned away with a growth sport here and Pan-Am.