Argos to BMO decision - Wednesday, May 20th

[Detroit_TFC]

^ Interesting points, I agree. Moving Argos to BMO doesn't address their main issues at all, it's a stop gap measure. If there is one thing MLS has learned in the last 20 years, that is if you are a secondary tenant in your facility, you'll lose money. Seems applicable in this situation too.

[OgtheDim]

Look who's at city hall for take out the trash day.




A random Ti-Cat fan, a tree and the garbage to be taken out.






(I'm a Ti-Cat fan - this is just reflexive)

[greatwhitenorf]

Well, anybody who thought that was either blind or idiot. Toronto has a huge immigrant population so selling out soccer games wouldn't be an issue in this market.

Soccer has huge upside to become "The" sport in this market. This is why MLSE got into soccer business because they see demographic changing in GTA where it favour soccer.

MLSE commissioned a study some years back - before acquiring the TFC franchise - into what they could do to maintain the status of the Leafs and grow the Raptors. What they learned alarmed them about how Toronto's changing demographics would make it hard to maintain the Leafs as a bulletproof, blue-chip asset.

The Raptors fortunes were quite the opposite, with a growing appetite for the game spreading through schools.

But soccer is where they discovered the real potential was and Toronto was a vastly underserved market place. Didn't take very long to get in the game with MLS and then the CSA to get BMO Field built. The rest is history.

Pretty sure that, at no point, did the CFL enter their equations and now they sit there, like one o'clock half struck, a confusing, divisive element that no one has a clue what to do with short of calling the Humane Society.

[Beach_Red]

^ Too bad they didn't build their own stadium.

[Super]

Never chanting "This is our house" again. Someone should create a banner with "This is our house?" on it.

[greatwhitenorf]

Hear, hear.

This WAS our house. Now, it's just a platform for advertising and revenue streams. When they can't put us and the sport first, I can't claim any special affinity with TFC anymore.

Looked at Taylor Made drivers and Big Trusty wedges today. Good way to spend the season ticket money.

I see the Raptors lost today. To a team with an inferior record. Some might call the ACC a House of Pain. All MLSE must think of it is A Hou$e of Gain. So sad for all the young suckers they've cultivated to hang out on Bremner Blvd. Pray MLSE don't get into the golf course business.

[Pookie]

Looked at Taylor Made drivers and Big Trusty wedges today. Good way to spend the season ticket money.

That was my decision 2 years ago. I asked my wife a few weeks ago if she (a huge footy fan) if she would ever consider season tickets again. Without pausing for a second, she said no. And this was a lady that told me when the pub crawls were.

Reasons ranged from the dumb playoff scenario to MLSE having its head in its ass to remembering the gouging in the early years with the Marlies' pack.

I picked up a new 3 wood instead.

[Macksam]

Those 8000 seats had nothing to do with TFC. It was always built with the Argos/Winter Classic in mind. They are not dumb in realizing that they could barely sell out the stadium for TFC games as it was before unless it was Beckham, Real Madrid, or 2007. The fact that they are promoting this expansion as a TFC thing is insulting TBH.

Winter classic and grey cup sure. The Argos? Lol, they would have a hard time filling BMO at its original capacity. TFC has the only chance of drawing 30000 people on a regular basis, not the Argos.

[mastermixer]

Winter classic and grey cup sure. The Argos? Lol, they would have a hard time filling BMO at its original capacity. TFC has the only chance of drawing 30000 people on a regular basis, not the Argos.

I actually think Argos will sell out. This city loves anything new, and ratings show that their are a lot of Argos fans sitting on their buts at home watching. Maybe the new venue will get more of those people out.

[Phil]

Hear, hear.

This WAS our house. Now, it's just a platform for advertising and revenue streams. When they can't put us and the sport first, I can't claim any special affinity with TFC anymore.

Looked at Taylor Made drivers and Big Trusty wedges today. Good way to spend the season ticket money.

I see the Raptors lost today. To a team with an inferior record. Some might call the ACC a House of Pain. All MLSE must think of it is A Hou$e of Gain. So sad for all the young suckers they've cultivated to hang out on Bremner Blvd. Pray MLSE don't get into the golf course business.

This post is dripping with venom about a business acting like a business. I just don't get it....even if we flip the model and have a single owner - that owner will still want to maximize revenue and make money.

I am not happy one bit about the possibility of the Argos doing a ground share and if it comes to it I will vote with my money and they will loose my business.

[Joe Kool]

This post is dripping with venom about a business acting like a business. I just don't get it....even if we flip the model and have a single owner - that owner will still want to maximize revenue and make money.

I am not happy one bit about the possibility of the Argos doing a ground share and if it comes to it I will vote with my money and they will loose my business.

Agreed. MLSE or not pro sports is a business and in business you try to maximize profit. I am in the same boat with regards to this issue and the team performance as well on top of that. I will vote with my money by giving up my season seats even though I like my seats and always wanted the roof. I feel I am at a tipping point right now for me like some were in the last few years.

[Beach_Red]

This post is dripping with venom about a business acting like a business. I just don't get it....even if we flip the model and have a single owner - that owner will still want to maximize revenue and make money.

I am not happy one bit about the possibility of the Argos doing a ground share and if it comes to it I will vote with my money and they will loose my business.

Sure, business is business, but it's not always so cynical about its core business. We all have breaking points when we start voting with our money. For greatwhite it seems it's groundshare. Everyone who has dropped off this board over the years had a different reason. The scary thing is that MLSE just keeps going until they hit everyone's breaking point.

I guess we can accept that it's just business but we want them to be a lot better at it.

[king10]

Sure, business is business, but it's not always so cynical about its core business. We all have breaking points when we start voting with our money. For greatwhite it seems it's groundshare. Everyone who has dropped off this board over the years had a different reason. The scary thing is that MLSE just keeps going until they hit everyone's breaking point.

I guess we can accept that it's just business but we want them to be a lot better at it.

If we're talking about the single bottom line, MLSE is pretty good at that kind of business (profit) and getting fans to open their wallets.

[Phil]

If we're talking about the single bottom line, MLSE is pretty good at that kind of business (profit) and getting fans to open their wallets.

Its arguable that its not as much fans but corporations that open their wallets. Sure there are fans in there but I think any revenue derived on a big scale comes from leafs and raptors more than TFC. We all know that stadium will be less than half full if they continue to get this wrong.

[Beach_Red]

If we're talking about the single bottom line, MLSE is pretty good at that kind of business (profit) and getting fans to open their wallets.

Or are they good at being the only game in town? If they were really good, TFC would sell out every game. We know the potential to do that is here. We can only guess what would happen if there was another NHL team in the GTA.

I don't know about building condos or running sports bars, are they number one at those things?

[greatwhitenorf]

This post is dripping with venom about a business acting like a business. I just don't get it....even if we flip the model and have a single owner - that owner will still want to maximize revenue and make money.

I am not happy one bit about the possibility of the Argos doing a ground share and if it comes to it I will vote with my money and they will loose my business.

You can't begrudge a business or an individual wanting to better themselves. In this case though, the introduction of one new product will serve as a detriment to the quality of play of the other. That will only serve to weaken the support they have in soccer, lowering crowds and breeding indifference.

I'm sure the city looks at the additional game dates and approves because there's additional revenue to be gained from parking charges and stadium rental fees.

But you could easily take up the slack of not having CFL games by scheduling additional soccer activity at the stadium.

The sad part for me is having MLSE diminish the value that soccer has to their portfolio by bringing in the CFL. It's interesting - and frustrating - to hear both the city and MLSE talk out both sides of their mouths and backsides on this issue. Councillors I've spoken to say the city has largely deferred the handling of this matter to MLSE. MLSE staff say it's the city driving the matter and they are, like a bunch of little Mongos, 'only pawns in game of life'.

Recently, when I got into a discussion with a MLSE office boy about the situation, making it clear where my sympathies lie, he took the line that there's nothing MLSE can do. They're just following orders in operating a city-run facility. A few minutes after I finished, my friend strolled over and said how great he thought it was that the Argos were getting a new home. The little bumpkin just oozed enthusiasm for the Argos deal.

Who needs that kind of duplicity?

FORE!!

[Phil]

You can't begrudge a business or an individual wanting to better themselves. In this case though, the introduction of one new product will serve as a detriment to the quality of play of the other. That will only serve to weaken the support they have in soccer, lowering crowds and breeding indifference.

I'm sure the city looks at the additional game dates and approves because there's additional revenue to be gained from parking charges and stadium rental fees.

But you could easily take up the slack of not having CFL games by scheduling additional soccer activity at the stadium.

The sad part for me is having MLSE diminish the value that soccer has to their portfolio by bringing in the CFL. It's interesting - and frustrating - to hear both the city and MLSE talk out both sides of their mouths and backsides on this issue. Councillors I've spoken to say the city has largely deferred the handling of this matter to MLSE. MLSE staff say it's the city driving the matter and they are, like a bunch of little Mongos, 'only pawns in game of life'.

Recently, when I got into a discussion with a MLSE office boy about the situation, making it clear where my sympathies lie, he took the line that there's nothing MLSE can do. They're just following orders in operating a city-run facility. A few minutes after I finished, my friend strolled over and said how great he thought it was that the Argos were getting a new home. The little bumpkin just oozed enthusiasm for the Argos deal.

Who needs that kind of duplicity?

FORE!!

I totally get where you are coming from.

The simplest way I see this:

The politicians are being political at the expense of TFC and to the benefit of the Argos

TFC owners are caught in the middle of it and trying to at least pretend that its better to have them there.

TFC staff (at least the huge soccer enthusiast ones) are not happy as the compromise hurts the purity of the sport

TFC game staff (sales and concessions) probably happy with the Argos as it means more opportunity to make money and get shifts.

The fan base really gets it in this case as its that field and sanctity of our sport that will be sacrificed if problems occur. I still pray that the Argos will find a way to fuck it up for themselves as they always seem to do with a stadium deal on the table.

[Mulder]

I totally get where you are coming from.

The simplest way I see this:

The politicians are being political at the expense of TFC and to the benefit of the Argos

TFC owners are caught in the middle of it and trying to at least pretend that its better to have them there.

TFC staff (at least the huge soccer enthusiast ones) are not happy as the compromise hurts the purity of the sport

TFC game staff (sales and concessions) probably happy with the Argos as it means more opportunity to make money and get shifts.

The fan base really gets it in this case as its that field and sanctity of our sport that will be sacrificed if problems occur. I still pray that the Argos will find a way to fuck it up for themselves as they always seem to do with a stadium deal on the table.

1 time = Argos always fuck stadium deals?

[Beach_Red]

I totally get where you are coming from.

The simplest way I see this:

The politicians are being political at the expense of TFC and to the benefit of the Argos

TFC owners are caught in the middle of it and trying to at least pretend that its better to have them there.

TFC staff (at least the huge soccer enthusiast ones) are not happy as the compromise hurts the purity of the sport

TFC game staff (sales and concessions) probably happy with the Argos as it means more opportunity to make money and get shifts.

The fan base really gets it in this case as its that field and sanctity of our sport that will be sacrificed if problems occur. I still pray that the Argos will find a way to fuck it up for themselves as they always seem to do with a stadium deal on the table.

MLSE chose to be in the middle, they aren't caught. they could have (and still can at any time) build their own stadium.

I guess that's why I find groundshare as the reason to give up on TFC an odd one - after every bad decision and failed plan and marketing scheme gone wrong over all these years... well, I guess for some it's the straw that breaks the camel's back, but as MLSE decisions go, getting nine more days' use out of the stadium doesn't even seem like one of the worst ones.

I think you were right about 150 pages earlier in this thread, Phil, when you said that we won't really know what effect it has on the game day experience until we see it in action.

[Fort York Redcoat]

MLSE chose to be in the middle, they aren't caught. they could have (and still can at any time) build their own stadium.

I guess that's why I find groundshare as the reason to give up on TFC an odd one - after every bad decision and failed plan and marketing scheme gone wrong over all these years... well, I guess for some it's the straw that breaks the camel's back, but as MLSE decisions go, getting nine more days' use out of the stadium doesn't even seem like one of the worst ones.

I think you were right about 150 pages earlier in this thread, Phil, when you said that we won't really know what effect it has on the game day experience until we see it in action.

You mention nine days without mentioning what it does to the surface that most are basing their decision on.

[Fort York Redcoat]

1 time = Argos always fuck stadium deals?

Argos and stadiums always get fucked up. Lay blame where you wish.

[Beach_Red]

You mention nine days without mentioning what it does to the surface that most are basing their decision on.

Okay, even if it messes up the surface and leaves it terrible shape for TFC games, this still wouldn't be in the top five terrible decisions MLSE have made since day one with this team. I'm not saying it's a good decision, just that it won't be the last bad one they make. Probably not even the worst one they'll make this summer, but certainly not the worst one they'll make over the next five years.

Someday we'll look back on bringing in the Argos the way we now look back on bringing in Klinsmann to "change the culture" or handing over the building of an entire expansion team from scratch to a guy who had coached four games in his life.

Not bringing in the Argos is what would be out of character here.

[Qman]

I actually think Argos will sell out. This city loves anything new, and ratings show that their are a lot of Argos fans sitting on their buts at home watching. Maybe the new venue will get more of those people out.

your 100% correct.
Most argo fans that hate the dome with a passion and are basically protesting with their asses and pocket books until braley finds the right place to play ... and watching the games for free on TV

[glaze]

So the Argos will move in and not put up any signage? banners? their "ring of honour"?
We're to magically believe that this new field will not show any signs of wear after football, even though the NFL completely tore up a similar surface in Wembley?
After a season or two of poor fields, TFC won't revert to a completely artificial surface (like every other CFL stadium), which in theory would be better for concerts (that MLSE seems to want now), monster truck rallies, and whatever else will have to be pulled out of the Dome so the Jays can preserve their new grass field?
The more this drags on, the more irritating it gets, mostly because MLSE keeps feeding us silence, half truths, or outright lies.
BMO better be a friggin jewel when these renovations are finished.

[greatwhitenorf]

Write them a letter, Glaze. Can't hurt.

In earlier posts, people spoke of getting some sort of form-letter response that talks were on-going and that we'd be informed when something more was known.

I've seen other, more recent, responses the tone has shifted to say they're aware of the concerns of fans and that they've received a lot of communication from SSH's.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Okay, even if it messes up the surface and leaves it terrible shape for TFC games, this still wouldn't be in the top five terrible decisions MLSE have made since day one with this team. I'm not saying it's a good decision, just that it won't be the last bad one they make. Probably not even the worst one they'll make this summer, but certainly not the worst one they'll make over the next five years.

Someday we'll look back on bringing in the Argos the way we now look back on bringing in Klinsmann to "change the culture" or handing over the building of an entire expansion team from scratch to a guy who had coached four games in his life.

Not bringing in the Argos is what would be out of character here.

You want to diminish this poor decision by looking at the total of poor decisions, fine. Most of those are team decisions that change from year to year. "A step backwards" in team quality through personnel decisions is conceptual.

This decision is not. We fans were told our priority mattered and that was proven when they got us grass. They plan on a step backwards that is far from conceptual or a change that can be unmade in less than a season.

If this goes ahead I doubt it will be permanent but I won't wait and watch them try to get back to where they already are.

[Beach_Red]

You want to diminish this poor decision by looking at the total of poor decisions, fine. Most of those are team decisions that change from year to year. "A step backwards" in team quality through personnel decisions is conceptual.

This decision is not. We fans were told our priority mattered and that was proven when they got us grass. They plan on a step backwards that is far from conceptual or a change that can be unmade in less than a season.

If this goes ahead I doubt it will be permanent but I won't wait and watch them try to get back to where they already are.

Yes, to me it's just another one of the many things we fans were told. And yes, this may only be temporary, too, the Argos may fail at BMO just like having concerts at BMO failed after Genesis. There have always been plans to use BMO for anything that might make a little money. That was one of the first things we were told.

But fair enough if this one is your breaking point. To be honest, I gave up season tickets after the "bring in a consultant to change the culture" fiasco because that was as much crap as I could put up with "being told," so I understand breaking points. Like I said, it does look like they are actually trying to find everyone's breaking point. It's really a fascinating thing to watch (which is why I'm still on here).

[Fort York Redcoat]

Yes, to me it's just another one of the many things we fans were told. And yes, this may only be temporary, too, the Argos may fail at BMO just like having concerts at BMO failed after Genesis. There have always been plans to use BMO for anything that might make a little money. That was one of the first things we were told.

But fair enough if this one is your breaking point. To be honest, I gave up season tickets after the "bring in a consultant to change the culture" fiasco because that was as much crap as I could put up with "being told," so I understand breaking points. Like I said, it does look like they are actually trying to find everyone's breaking point. It's really a fascinating thing to watch (which is why I'm still on here).

I'm glad you're still around. It goes to show we don't all have to support the exact same way to find plenty in common.

Cheers.

[ensco]

It's really a fascinating thing to watch (which is why I'm still on here).

So true.

If you are interested in business and management, this has been fascinating and amazing thing.

A super cool thing happened organically out of almost nothing ... then became a never ending world class dumpster fire, ever since the suits got involved at the end of the first year.

[Fort York Redcoat]

a never ending world class dumpster fire.

This must not be the last time I see these string of words together.