Argos to BMO decision - Wednesday, May 20th

[SoccMan2]

I read the article on Yahoo and then read some of the comments and some people posted comments blaming the low attendance for the Argos on things like the Molson Indy, the hot weather, the other events around the CNE grounds and the fact that BMO Field is not an easy place to get to, however, TFC who have to fill BMO almost double the amount of times the Argos do have never really had a problem getting 20 000 or more since since 2007 and having to deal with same obstacles the Argos have to deal with, but then TFC don't have A major sports network constantly pumping out stories about them and still the Argos can't get many people out to the stadium. It's just funny how people make excuses but forget that there is another team there who have no problem getting people out. The bottom line right now is not enough people in Toronto care about the Argos at the moment to get off their asses and attend games, forget about all the excuses.

[redcard]

one thing that i don't understand is that the Argos were getting more to come out to the dome, had a couple of grey cups, but those to guys that owned the team were crying about the money losing investment they were in and how they wanted out...so how could this be a money making venture all of a sudden with much lower paid attendance, paying rent now, and handing out tons of freebies? I dont see them doing well here, wait till it gets cooler and rains...what excuses then?

also the writer did mention that their profits would be affected based on the number of freebies being handed out, a figure which they will never make public...

[Pookie]

I read the article on Yahoo and then read some of the comments and some people posted comments blaming the low attendance for the Argos on things like the Molson Indy, the hot weather, the other events around the CNE grounds and the fact that BMO Field is not an easy place to get to, however, TFC who have to fill BMO almost double the amount of times the Argos do have never really had a problem getting 20 000 or more since since 2007 and having to deal with same obstacles the Argos have to deal with, but then TFC don't have A major sports network constantly pumping out stories about them and still the Argos can't get many people out to the stadium. It's just funny how people make excuses but forget that there is another team there who have no problem getting people out. The bottom line right now is not enough people in Toronto care about the Argos at the moment to get off their asses and attend games, forget about all the excuses.

This is inferiority complex with TFC and the Argos really needs to stop.

You don't have to put one down to feel better about the other. And I love how you pretend protests never happened and pre-Defoe era TFC didn't have issues with attendance.

Argos are a long term fix and will have money to fund them over that time frame. Will it work? Don't know. But this Grey Cup (and the next one) will keep 'em going for years.

Best we can hope for TFC is that despite poor ratings that they stay on mainstream sports networks and not go back to The Score.

Both franchises have challenges.

[Pookie]

one thing that i don't understand is that the Argos were getting more to come out to the dome, had a couple of grey cups, but those to guys that owned the team were crying about the money losing investment they were in and how they wanted out...so how could this be a money making venture all of a sudden with much lower paid attendance, paying rent now, and handing out tons of freebies? I dont see them doing well here, wait till it gets cooler and rains...what excuses then?

also the writer did mention that their profits would be affected based on the number of freebies being handed out, a figure which they will never make public...

Braley reportedly made $10M on his last Grey Cup.

In the world of non publicly traded companies, who knows what the real story is. Does anyone really believe NHL owners are losing money? Seems like they are... every time the CBA is up for renewal.

[redcard]

I was referring to the guys before braley, but still I think we have to take that article with a grain salt...may have some truths like how important the Grey Cup is essential for a CFL team to keep going through the lean times...its just that for the Argos I think the interest in CFL football is no longer there in the GTA...between the Jays, New Leafs, Raptors and now TFC....the dollars spent on a non major sports (Marlies, TFC2, and Argos) will be limited if not decrease from where they are now.

[Wagner]

I've heard before that it is all about grey cups to keep your team afloat. You are 1 million in the red every year. But you make 10 million when you host the GC. Thus cancelling our 7ish years of red ink.

[james]

I was surprised when I saw the attendance of the Argos is worse now then at Sky dome. I thought they were going to get 24k a game easy, they only have 8 games to sell tickets to.If Argos complain exhibition is hard to get to I really don't get it. It's slightly outside the city core, but still so close, it's not like it's out in the suburbs like so many other sport teams in North America, public transit is almost non existent in some cases in suburbs. Exhibition is still on the same lakeshore GO line ( tho not on the same union station other trains are on, and not on the subway line) but doe's connect with the street car lines, and as far as car drivers go I really don't see any difference, your talking 5 minutes down along the same QEW highway. If TFC fans can make it and hundreds of thousands make it to the CNE , it should not be an issue for Argo fans, unless they just the laziest fans. I guess they have bigger issues then they realized.

[james]

I also wonder if local Liberty village bars make much money off of Argo fans? With low attendance plus tailgates do the bars get busy on game day? Were they expecting more profits with Argos moving to the neighbourhood?

[Pookie]

I was referring to the guys before braley, but still I think we have to take that article with a grain salt...may have some truths like how important the Grey Cup is essential for a CFL team to keep going through the lean times...its just that for the Argos I think the interest in CFL football is no longer there in the GTA...between the Jays, New Leafs, Raptors and now TFC....the dollars spent on a non major sports (Marlies, TFC2, and Argos) will be limited if not decrease from where they are now.

If you are using current attendance to proclaim demise just remember that in 2010, the Jays drew 18,000 on average to their games including a franchise low 10,000 for a game against Chicago.

They don't have the benefit of David Beckham creating a rush on tickets or a Defoe to salvage the casual fan base but I think this century old team will be just fine.

[Wagner]

The Argos do have their "Beckham" player every few years...

Ricky Williams
Doug Flutie
Rocket Ismail
Theismann

They'd benefit if they landed Johnny Football or Tebow. (Although i think the Als have Tebows rights)

the downside to these guys is while they will put butts in the seats short term, it also reinforces that the CFL is a feeder or minor league to the NFL.

part of the genius of soccer is the relegation system and club world cup. it gives everyone hope.

TFC could win everything in this hemisphere...and play at the Fifa club world cup.
in Europe, you can have a Castel Di Sangro scenario (Great book BTW)

[Macksam]

If you are using current attendance to proclaim demise just remember that in 2010, the Jays drew 18,000 on average to their games including a franchise low 10,000 for a game against Chicago.

They don't have the benefit of David Beckham creating a rush on tickets or a Defoe to salvage the casual fan base but I think this century old team will be just fine.

The Blue Jays play in Major League Baseball, a league in which some teams have total player salaries in the 200 million dollar range. A team can be full of Defoes or Beckhams.

A lot of people like to forget this but the Blue Jays in particular were the Man City of baseball when the team won its pair of World Series titles by having a 100 million dollar team salary when no other team in baseball was even close to that.

The casual nature of the sport's viewership, the fact it is major league and an ownership that is willing to throw a lot of dollar into the team can pretty much resolve any attendance issue with the Jays.

The Argos on the other hand....

[Richard]

The Blue Jays play in Major League Baseball, a league in which some teams have total player salaries in the 200 million dollar range. A team can be full of Defoes or Beckhams.

A lot of people like to forget this but the Blue Jays in particular were the Man City of baseball when the team won its pair of World Series titles by having a 100 million dollar team salary when no other team in baseball was even close to that.

The casual nature of the sport's viewership, the fact it is major league and an ownership that is willing to throw a lot of dollar into the team can pretty much resolve any attendance issue with the Jays.

The Argos on the other hand....

I think he was referring to the CFL not MLB in regards to Defoe, Beckham etc...

[ag futbol]

I can't see shovelling all the grey cup profits to one team as a sustainable strategy. That money needs to be spread around the league.

Maybe in the short term is helps fund operating losses but long term It's a non starter. Winnipeg, Ottawa, and Sask all have new stadiums. Calgary will be expecting one at some point (maybe). Those places will want to host occasionally as well.

One can only wonder what the discussions are within the Argo's owners offices. They've already plowed money into this thing and now it appears they either need to double down or live with a loss leader in the name of TV content (which will matter little to some of the stakeholders at the table).

[noimpactinmtl]

As long as the Argos bring in sponsors to the league by staying in Toronto, Bell will write off the losses banking on TV offsetting it.

Now, if they get their own stadium, I would have no problem with them.

[Pookie]

This quest for the Argos own stadium is curious to me.

We, taxpayers, already paid millions for BMO and another truckload of millions for this expansion to allow for grey cups and hockey games. And the gains that are generated by said corporate welfare have been questioned by economists in cities for years.

It's pretty clear that if the Argos got their own stadium, that we, taxpayers, would be donating again.

You really want that as an outcome? Really?

Maybe we should start this "get your own house" movement by asking MLSE to invest its own money (100%) into a soccer only stadium rather than gorging itself on public funds.

[Onyx]

The Argos do have their "Beckham" player every few years...

Ricky Williams
Doug Flutie
Rocket Ismail
Theismann

They'd benefit if they landed Johnny Football or Tebow. (Although i think the Als have Tebows rights)

the downside to these guys is while they will put butts in the seats short term, it also reinforces that the CFL is a feeder or minor league to the NFL.

part of the genius of soccer is the relegation system and club world cup. it gives everyone hope.

TFC could win everything in this hemisphere...and play at the Fifa club world cup.
in Europe, you can have a Castel Di Sangro scenario (Great book BTW)

mls is a feeder league ... mostly for MX based on the offseason activity

[Pookie]

The Blue Jays play in Major League Baseball, a league in which some teams have total player salaries in the 200 million dollar range. A team can be full of Defoes or Beckhams.

A lot of people like to forget this but the Blue Jays in particular were the Man City of baseball when the team won its pair of World Series titles by having a 100 million dollar team salary when no other team in baseball was even close to that.

The casual nature of the sport's viewership, the fact it is major league and an ownership that is willing to throw a lot of dollar into the team can pretty much resolve any attendance issue with the Jays.

The Argos on the other hand....

The Argos on the other hand have averaged well over 20k fans per game for much of the last decade. Despite a significant cut in their infrastructure.

Plenty of differences between CFL and MLB but let's be clear that many Canadians across the country do care about the CFL. The Grey Cup will outdraw the MLS Cup (even with a Toronto Vancouver hypothetical final) by an embarrassing margin. And there is an untapped/disgruntled base of support (as highlighted by attendance this decade) in Toronto that needs to be won back by a new ownership group that listens to the fans.

Sound familiar?

I'm not sure this group will do it but to discount them... in a year in which their attendance (and spending) are up...seems a little premature. They have said all along its a long term thing and they have long term funds to do it.

[Pint]

We are? How many players have started in MLS and gone to Mexico? Silva, Gonzales, Farfan? Mean while Henry, Shea, miazga and yedlin have gone to EPL in the past few years.

Wouldn't really consider us a feeder league for any 1 league but our top Young talents do go to top leagues when an opportunity presents itself.

[Pookie]

The Argos do have their "Beckham" player every few years...

Ricky Williams
Doug Flutie
Rocket Ismail
Theismann

They'd benefit if they landed Johnny Football or Tebow. (Although i think the Als have Tebows rights)

the downside to these guys is while they will put butts in the seats short term, it also reinforces that the CFL is a feeder or minor league to the NFL.

part of the genius of soccer is the relegation system and club world cup. it gives everyone hope.

TFC could win everything in this hemisphere...and play at the Fifa club world cup.
in Europe, you can have a Castel Di Sangro scenario (Great book BTW)

Not sure I follow. I get the benefits of a relegation system but we don't have one in MLS.

We have a ridiculously easy playoff system (only the CFL is more ridiculous) that may or may not actually be on Tv (in fairness I don't know as I am one of the many that stop watching if my club is out)

As for tournaments beyond MLS, the vast majority of TFC fans didn't care at all about concacaf so that may be a harder sell than you think. We even had many debates about holding players back for the MLS games, where the goal back then was to be amongst the 50% of teams that made the playoffs (it's now 60%). Wouldn't want a trophy at the expense of home field advantage in a contrived single game knock out against the 5th and 6th best teams in a 10 team table now would we?

[Pookie]

We are? How many players have started in MLS and gone to Mexico? Silva, Gonzales, Farfan? Mean while Henry, Shea, miazga and yedlin have gone to EPL in the past few years.

Wouldn't really consider us a feeder league for any 1 league but our top Young talents do go to top leagues when an opportunity presents itself.

That's an interesting side discussion.

How many MLS players actually move on bigger leagues? If you contrast that with AHL to NHL in terms of development....?

I wouldn't say it's a feeder league. More of a destination league for North Americans and retiring internationals. A way to make some money beyond college and a way to cash in on your brand when the top leagues stop calling.

[Pint]

That's an interesting side discussion.

How many MLS players actually move on bigger leagues? If you contrast that with AHL to NHL in terms of development....?

I wouldn't say it's a feeder league. More of a destination league for North Americans and retiring internationals. A way to make some money beyond college and a way to cash in on your brand when the top leagues stop calling.

AHL to NHL isn't a good comparison for MLS to foerign leagues as they are not related. You could do USL to MLS if you want to compare but probably need another 5+ years to establish a trend.

[Onyx]

Wouldn't really consider us a feeder league for any 1 league but our top Young talents do go to top leagues when an opportunity presents itself.

Absolutely, MLS should be selling its young talent whenever it gets a chance ... isn't that the whole point of having academies.
MLS is equivalent to mid League One, maybe the chicagos that don't spend are mid League Two.

Premiership and championship are bathing in TV money right now.
Your looking at $50M+ wage bill just to be a mid table Championship team now. All the starters are making well over $2M+. And thats Div 2 football.

[Pint]

The point of academies is to develop local talent to use as best as you can for your team. That doesn't mean your goal is to sell those players but to use them for the betterment of the team and sport.

[Onyx]

The point of academies is to develop local talent to use as best as you can for your team. That doesn't mean your goal is to sell those players but to use them for the betterment of the team and sport.

yes, sorry. wasn't talking about a pure ghent or sporting model. but if your pouring $2-3million per year into academies you need to see some financial payback to pay for them. Top end guys are sold and rest are like bonus superdraft picks.

[Pookie]

The point of academies is to develop local talent to use as best as you can for your team. That doesn't mean your goal is to sell those players but to use them for the betterment of the team and sport.

I would argue that the main point of "Academies" is found in the business deal between Adidas and the MLS. Mass marketing to a captive audience at a targeted demographic

[OgtheDim]

mls is a feeder league ... mostly for MX based on the offseason activity

3 players moved south

More went to European leagues


Even more came from Liga Mx to here.

[mistercorporate]

mls is a feeder league ... mostly for MX based on the offseason activity

Are you paid to be a contrarian? Ridiculous.

[Onyx]

Are you paid to be a contrarian? Ridiculous.

yeah, me ... and just about every sports news organization that follows mls

http://www.foxsports.com/soccer/insi...feature-010816

http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/1110/...a-mx-a-sign-of

http://sportsjournal.ca/2016/03/03/t...s-and-liga-mx/

http://www.espnfc.us/major-league-so...ays-don-garber

[Hamilton_Red]

The Grey Cup is a Canadian institution - TFC and MLS can only hope that their premier event get's close to the status of the Grey Cup. For me MLS needs to play up winning the Supporters Shield and move away from a "Play-offs" format being the be all and end all. That's the way soccer is everywhere else & it works. All that being said - the Argos are in trouble in TO - the demographic that follow's them is fading & the current fan base that has had 20 years of sitting indoors in comfort isn't going to like BMO in October and November at all - especially if they are out of the playoffs.

The Argos on the other hand have averaged well over 20k fans per game for much of the last decade. Despite a significant cut in their infrastructure.

Plenty of differences between CFL and MLB but let's be clear that many Canadians across the country do care about the CFL. The Grey Cup will outdraw the MLS Cup (even with a Toronto Vancouver hypothetical final) by an embarrassing margin. And there is an untapped/disgruntled base of support (as highlighted by attendance this decade) in Toronto that needs to be won back by a new ownership group that listens to the fans.

Sound familiar?

I'm not sure this group will do it but to discount them... in a year in which their attendance (and spending) are up...seems a little premature. They have said all along its a long term thing and they have long term funds to do it.

[Ivy]

The Grey Cup is a Canadian institution - TFC and MLS can only hope that their premier event get's close to the status of the Grey Cup. For me MLS needs to play up winning the Supporters Shield and move away from a "Play-offs" format being the be all and end all. That's the way soccer is everywhere else & it works. All that being said - the Argos are in trouble in TO - the demographic that follow's them is fading & the current fan base that has had 20 years of sitting indoors in comfort isn't going to like BMO in October and November at all - especially if they are out of the playoffs.

The Shield will never be the top trophy in North America. Think about the amount of people that stop watching and / following once their team is out of the playoffs. Now imagine if the shield was the "top prize" and you're a TFC fan circa 2007-2013.... TFC would have no fans shortly after June.
The playoff format gives 60%+ of the fan bases a reason to follow and support until late October.