Argos to BMO decision - Wednesday, May 20th

[Beach_Red]

^They play a couple more games like that, BMO will look like Arrowhead and RFK.

What's it going to look like on Wednesday?

[jazzy]

As a semi-supporter of Toronto FC, I'm not hardcore like you guys, I knew someone who had tickets in 127 and went to many games there. As I am aware of what happened in the early years of this franchise, more specifically the first three seasons. Anyways, I am going to put my two cents into this issue:

We have determined on some posts that I've read here that being a fan of the Argos/CFL and the Toronto FC (and Canada Soccer for that matter) are NOT mutually exclusive. Although a large number of CFL fans may want you to believe that, as I've always been curious on who watches the CFL, but I agree that this is a seperate issue.

Anyways, to get to the point, if the Argonauts are coming, which unfortunately looks like is going to be the reality. Even if the Argonauts aren't coming now, I honestly believe the government will try to force them. You can laugh at me all you want, but "Canadian Football" some will say is a very important thing to Canadian identity, (I personally disagree with this myself) if you don't believe me, take a good look in the middle of your passport, if you have the new style of passport. Political legislation to keep the Argonauts and CFL going have been used before when there have been threats of them possibly dying. For instance, in 1974, the short lived "World Football League" wanted to put a team in Toronto called the Toronto Northmen, and well, that scared the Canadian nationalists, so Trudeau's government introduced the Canadian Football Act which would make it illegal for foreign football (gridiron football of course) leagues to operate in Canada. This scared the Northmen, so they instead operated in Memphis called the Memphis Southmen.

That was over 40 years ago but it still props up today, while I honestly believe in the GTA that an overwhelming majority of Argonauts supporters are boomers, there has been political legislation involved with the CFL today. For instance, take a look at Bill S-238 which was proposed as "An act representing Canadian professional football" which seems to state that anyone caught playing American football in Toronto could go to jail for two years. Again, like the 1974 act, this went nowhere, but it shows you how serious they are about this. Sure, American gridiron is largely played in one sport as well, but that's the version of gridiron known to most of the world. There are collegiate gridiron leagues in Britain for instance now. Can you imagine if for whatever reason, a version of baseball was developed in Canada which had 2 bases with a basepath in the shape of a triangle rather than a diamond, as well as an AT BAT having 2 strikes and 3 balls instead. Can you imagine, one country in the world playing this game and every other country in the world playing the other version we all know.

As for Toronto FC, since the brass there has decided to play hardball, I now suggest that like in 2008, you decide to play hardball back. For instance, like at the 2008 MLS All Star game, wear black to all games, and refuse to stand and cheer. We can keep a much better game in the "National Soccer Stadium" than a form of gridiron played in just one country by a small population. I recall one match in 127 where the fans chose to get up and leave after kick-off, I can't remember what for, but I do remember it happening. If they do not care about the supporters, the people who passionately go to games and keep a great atmosphere for everyone, it will be a net loss to everyone, and MLSE needs to understand by making BMO Field feel like a public library instead.

well thought.........and just a thought after today's boring , misstep of a game.......just dieing to see how MLSE manages the upcoming decision ........are they arogant enough to think both teams will prosper. How about this scenario . Both teams die a slow death under the present management.........imppossible.......maybe

[Pookie]

What's it going to look like on Wednesday?

Let me know. Like a lot of fans, I gave up interest in paying for it when management gave up interest in playing for it.

[Pookie]

well thought.........and just a thought after today's boring , misstep of a game.......just dieing to see how MLSE manages the upcoming decision ........are they arogant enough to think both teams will prosper. How about this scenario . Both teams die a slow death under the present management.........imppossible.......maybe

In a lot of ways, this could get interesting.

Are ticket pricing strategies the same for both teams?

Who gets more of the promotional budget and air time on the networks?

Can Argo fans get to their seats on time? Ie. Is the fact that the majority of TFC fans can't get to their seats until the game is 20 mins in really related to TTC and congestion?

Can the Argos actually draw the expected numbers with a new stadium? Or do they stumble and run out of ideas to save CFL football in Toronto?

10 years from now, are the seats still red or do we see more neutral grey like seating?

Does the hybrid hold out?

How loud can it get under the roof?

[Fort York Redcoat]

In a lot of ways, this could get interesting.

Are ticket pricing strategies the same for both teams?

Who gets more of the promotional budget and air time on the networks?

Can Argo fans get to their seats on time? Ie. Is the fact that the majority of TFC fans can't get to their seats until the game is 20 mins in really related to TTC and congestion?

Can the Argos actually draw the expected numbers with a new stadium? Or do they stumble and run out of ideas to save CFL football in Toronto?

10 years from now, are the seats still red or do we see more neutral grey like seating?

Does the hybrid hold out?

How loud can it get under the roof?

I'll leave the bolded to you. I won't actually watch a game to find out.

[Fort York Redcoat]

To be more precise: why is Rogers agreeing to do something that only helps Bell? What changed? Reason has to be that someone induced them with something more valuable to them. So what was it?

Now imagine you are a politician/regulator who thinks the Argos/CFL should be saved, for whatever reason, but you know you cannot "use" public money to do it ... who knows? maybe you knew the regulator were going to give the incumbents what they wanted all along, but you want your pound of flesh ...

Could be just the product of my overfertile imagination, so I'm not looking to debate the merits. I just think it's interesting that this massive and favourable decision came down pretty much the same day that people start calling this deal done.

That makes more sense. Tit for tat. Bell is putting a lot on those Argos if so.

[Mulder]

Political legislation to keep the Argonauts and CFL going have been used before when there have been threats of them possibly dying. For instance, in 1974, the short lived "World Football League" wanted to put a team in Toronto called the Toronto Northmen, and well, that scared the Canadian nationalists, so Trudeau's government introduced the Canadian Football Act which would make it illegal for foreign football (gridiron football of course) leagues to operate in Canada. This scared the Northmen, so they instead operated in Memphis called the Memphis Southmen.

That was over 40 years ago but it still props up today, while I honestly believe in the GTA that an overwhelming majority of Argonauts supporters are boomers, there has been political legislation involved with the CFL today. For instance, take a look at Bill S-238 which was proposed as "An act representing Canadian professional football" which seems to state that anyone caught playing American football in Toronto could go to jail for two years. Again, like the 1974 act, this went nowhere, but it shows you how serious they are about this.

Firstly, learn the difference between government introducing a bill and a 'private members bill' or even an individual senator introducing a bill. It's not the government as a whole.

Secondly, before you go criticizing protection of Canadian company/installation by foreign invasion, why not look at the number of Canadian companies currently enjoying that very protection by the Canadian government.

Sure, American gridiron is largely played in one sport as well, but that's the version of gridiron known to most of the world. There are collegiate gridiron leagues in Britain for instance now. Can you imagine if for whatever reason, a version of baseball was developed in Canada which had 2 bases with a basepath in the shape of a triangle rather than a diamond, as well as an AT BAT having 2 strikes and 3 balls instead. Can you imagine, one country in the world playing this game and every other country in the world playing the other version we all know.

Here's a history lesson, American football enjoyed the same roots in both countries. While both have evolved over the years, the Canadian league, is more truer to it's roots. US football switched from 3 downs to 4 to encourage more offense, US field went smaller to reduce injuries and to fit in baseball parks. They also removed the single point at some point in history.

So knowing that, maybe you need to ask yourself that very same question.

[ensco]

That makes more sense. Tit for tat. Bell is putting a lot on those Argos if so.

I think it's a coalition of Bell and Toronto Tories who, for different reasons, don't want CFL survival on people's radar screens.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Firstly, learn the difference between government introducing a bill and a 'private members bill' or even an individual senator introducing a bill. It's not the government as a whole.

Secondly, before you go criticizing protection of Canadian company/installation by foreign invasion, why not look at the number of Canadian companies currently enjoying that very protection by the Canadian government.




Here's a history lesson, American football enjoyed the same roots in both countries. While both have evolved over the years, the Canadian league, is more truer to it's roots. US football switched from 3 downs to 4 to encourage more offense, US field went smaller to reduce injuries and to fit in baseball parks. They also removed the single point at some point in history.

So knowing that, maybe you need to ask yourself that very same question.

Business and the business of sport are on completely different levels. As for what level certain CFL protection bills got to isn't as relevant to his point as their existence at all. IF you want to expand or explain his point better - do it. Asking him to learn something you clearly know but not sharing it doesn't make me doubt him any less.

As for the rule changes I'm with you on that. Attacking the games rules has no bearing on its relevance. The 2 interpretations of NA football grew up at the same time. Reference the not so talked about Harvard-McGill game.

[ensco]

The Leiweke playbook is to run a misdirection play simultaneous to the Argos announcement, ie a big signing or signings. Also this is only happening on the back of good news (ie a couple of wins). The game yesterday delayed everything. Maybe until the summer window?

Not sure who the signings could be with 3 DPs, but it could be a big name manager.

[Mulder]

Business and the business of sport are on completely different levels. As for what level certain CFL protection bills got to isn't as relevant to his point as their existence at all. IF you want to expand or explain his point better - do it. Asking him to learn something you clearly know but not sharing it doesn't make me doubt him any less.

I'm making a point that a private members bill is different than a party supported bill. Any MP can introduce a motion in the house of commons and that doesn't mean 'the government' introduced it. There have been some pretty odd private members bills introduced over the years. Private members bills are more often than not killed on first reading, or introduced at a time when an election announcement would kill it anyways.
Your MP actually does listen and take local issues to higher government, and if necessary, to the chambers. I got to witness these steps first hand as one of my jobs faced local opposition and went to the higher ups of the Ontario Government, this despite my proposal saving upward of 3.5 million.

[brad]

^ I was a little shocked that they didn't sell out the home opener. I expect empty seats through the season but not for the home opener with a new stadium smell to it.

(did they announce it as a sell out?)

http://www.espnfc.us/major-league-so...-league-soccer

The game drew a BMO Field-record crowd of 30,226, although there were some empty seats in the new upper tier in the East Stand.
An MLS spokesman said not all the tickets were put on sale because of an issue with the railing.

[Beach_Red]

I think it's a coalition of Bell and Toronto Tories who, for different reasons, don't want CFL survival on people's radar screens.

For sure, Bell (and their political pals) don't want to have news coming out of Toronto that alienates western Canada any further. It's very frustrating to be a pawn in this game but that's all TFC is.

[greatwhitenorf]

Its a joint TCHC/ MLSE project at 261 Jarvis Street

http://m.torontosun.com/2015/04/18/m...sports-complex

No, darling. It's Lamport Stadium.

And there was a smile and a twinkly eye when Bob Hunter discussed it with me. Comment came after mention was made of separate stadiums in Montreal for MLS and CFL.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Anyways, to get to the point, if the Argonauts are coming, which unfortunately looks like is going to be the reality. Even if the Argonauts aren't coming now, I honestly believe the government will try to force them. You can laugh at me all you want, but "Canadian Football" some will say is a very important thing to Canadian identity, (I personally disagree with this myself) if you don't believe me, take a good look in the middle of your passport, if you have the new style of passport. Political legislation to keep the Argonauts and CFL going have been used before when there have been threats of them possibly dying. For instance, in 1974, the short lived "World Football League" wanted to put a team in Toronto called the Toronto Northmen, and well, that scared the Canadian nationalists, so Trudeau's government introduced the Canadian Football Act which would make it illegal for foreign football (gridiron football of course) leagues to operate in Canada. This scared the Northmen, so they instead operated in Memphis called the Memphis Southmen.

That was over 40 years ago but it still props up today, while I honestly believe in the GTA that an overwhelming majority of Argonauts supporters are boomers, there has been political legislation involved with the CFL today. For instance, take a look at Bill S-238 which was proposed as "An act representing Canadian professional football" which seems to state that anyone caught playing American football in Toronto could go to jail for two years. Again, like the 1974 act, this went nowhere, but it shows you how serious they are about this. Sure, American gridiron is largely played in one sport as well, but that's the version of gridiron known to most of the world. There are collegiate gridiron leagues in Britain for instance now. Can you imagine if for whatever reason, a version of baseball was developed in Canada which had 2 bases with a basepath in the shape of a triangle rather than a diamond, as well as an AT BAT having 2 strikes and 3 balls instead. Can you imagine, one country in the world playing this game and every other country in the world playing the other version we all know.

As for Toronto FC, since the brass there has decided to play hardball, I now suggest that like in 2008, you decide to play hardball back. For instance, like at the 2008 MLS All Star game, wear black to all games, and refuse to stand and cheer. We can keep a much better game in the "National Soccer Stadium" than a form of gridiron played in just one country by a small population. I recall one match in 127 where the fans chose to get up and leave after kick-off, I can't remember what for, but I do remember it happening. If they do not care about the supporters, the people who passionately go to games and keep a great atmosphere for everyone, it will be a net loss to everyone, and MLSE needs to understand by making BMO Field feel like a public library instead.

I'm making a point that a private members bill is different than a party supported bill. Any MP can introduce a motion in the house of commons and that doesn't mean 'the government' introduced it. There have been some pretty odd private members bills introduced over the years. Private members bills are more often than not killed on first reading, or introduced at a time when an election announcement would kill it anyways.
Your MP actually does listen and take local issues to higher government, and if necessary, to the chambers. I got to witness these steps first hand as one of my jobs faced local opposition and went to the higher ups of the Ontario Government, this despite my proposal saving upward of 3.5 million.

...annnd this specific bill S-238 was a private members bill? That got squashed how far along?

I appreciate the info. I realize this is frustrating to see misunderstanding concerning the CFL but unless you provide info that corrects it:

you sound like CFL troll defending the league in this thread. I know you want to avoid that.

Thanks for the clarification.

[Fort York Redcoat]

No, darling. It's Lamport Stadium.

And there was a smile and a twinkly eye when Bob Hunter discussed it with me.

Why don't you give me pet names..

I hope you're right but do you have a link like Gab did?

[greatwhitenorf]

Its a joint TCHC/ MLSE project at 261 Jarvis Street

http://m.torontosun.com/2015/04/18/m...sports-complex

Why don't you give me pet names..

I hope you're right but do you have a link like Gab did?

There, there, now.

Sorry. I don't normally record or publish my everyday face-to-face conversations. Happy share what I heard.

[Beach_Red]

No, darling. It's Lamport Stadium.

And there was a smile and a twinkly eye when Bob Hunter discussed it with me. Comment came after mention was made of separate stadiums in Montreal for MLS and CFL.

Lamport would be the perfect solution. I just hope they don't decide which team gets which stadium based on championships won....

[Mulder]

...annnd this specific bill S-238 was a private members bill? That got squashed how far along?

I appreciate the info. I realize this is frustrating to see misunderstanding concerning the CFL but unless you provide info that corrects it:

you sound like CFL troll defending the league in this thread. I know you want to avoid that.

Thanks for the clarification.

S-238 was introduced to the Senate, not the house of commons, by Senator Larry Campbell.

Introduced June 2008, and dismissed on 1st reading in Sept.

[Redcoe15]

Anyone else shaking their heads when Leiweke called BMO "now the largest soccer specific stadium in MLS"?

If and when Bell and Tannenbaum buy the Argos and move them in there, BMO Field will cease to be called a soccer specific stadium.

[Fort York Redcoat]

S-238 was introduced to the Senate, not the house of commons, by Senator Larry Campbell.

Introduced June 2008, and dismissed on 1st reading in Sept.

Larry Campbell former Vancouver Mayor didn't want the Olympics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Campbell

His bill apparently:

http://www.parl.gc.ca/Content/SEN/Bi...238_text-e.htm

[Pookie]

The Leiweke playbook is to run a misdirection play simultaneous to the Argos announcement, ie a big signing or signings. Also this is only happening on the back of good news (ie a couple of wins). The game yesterday delayed everything. Maybe until the summer window?

Not sure who the signings could be with 3 DPs, but it could be a big name manager.

I don't think they can wait. Getting the Argos in 2016 is a priority for the buyers which means it needs to happen soon. This week makes the most sense. Long weekend, TFC on the road and they could trot out a Man City promotion to bury it in advance of the 27th.

Leiweke yesterday on air talked about the hybrid surface being installed over the off season. He then caught himself and said something to the effect that assuming the Argos deal gets done.

I would be surprised if it doesn't come this week. My guess would be Friday since most are getting ready for the long weekend.

[Pookie]

If and when Bell and Tannenbaum buy the Argos and move them in there, BMO Field will cease to be called a soccer specific stadium.

Yes, that was the gall I was referring to. To trump it as a soccer specific stadium when he knows that it won't be in about 16 home games was a little much for me.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I think with responses like this it comes across like we think TFC is bigger than franchises in billion dollar leagues. Will the pitch be perfect every game? No, but has the pitch been perfect in every previous game? Absolutely not. Im just trying to relay the point that TFC fans could be come across as spoiled if we expect to have our own stadium all to ourselves, when even the wealthiest franchise in the NHL makes due with less than "perfect" playing conditions. Do their fans bring signs in demanding the Leafs get their own home? Things like this probably shines in a really bad light to those on the outside.

Wrong.

If people want to assume what we think that is on them.

I don't think TFC is worth more in dollars. That is not what drives its worth for me. I don't know why it would for you.

And yes Leaf fans should do something, anything more than what they do if its important to them to not have one of the worst ice conditions in the league.

You say we come off as spoiled. I say we want to keep the quality we have. This bullshit groundshare could've been avoided long ago and btw

How is it we come off as spoiled when its our game that suffers and they get the same deal as always. Not first tenant, not their colour scheme, what a sacrifice. No one is ruining the quality of the game you pay to watch.

[Rotoomm]

Wrong.

If people want to assume what we think that is on them.

I don't think TFC is worth more in dollars. That is not what drives its worth for me. I don't know why it would for you.

And yes Leaf fans should do something, anything more than what they do if its important to them to not have one of the worst ice conditions in the league.

You say we come off as spoiled. I say we want to keep the quality we have. This bullshit groundshare could've been avoided long ago and btw

How is it we come off as spoiled when its our game that suffers and they get the same deal as always. Not first tenant, not their colour scheme, what a sacrifice. No one is ruining the quality of the game you pay to watch.

I Didn't suggest that TFC is worth more in dollars, I just highlighted the fact that every team in a multi billion dollar league shares their stadium with multi sports and events, on a much more vulnerable playing surface, being ice. Has the pitch been perfect/up to our quality standards every game in the past?

you are right that their quality will only be enhanced... And so will ours, we just did a $110MM.upgrade to our stadium. Our owners are investing millions into our pitch. The game day experience will be awesome! For both franchises. To me it just looks like we are spoiled when we complain that another tenant is moving in to this multi million dollar facility that is publicly owned, yet we are saying "no one else can have this, this is mine, mine, mine". When even I see a sign like that on TV I sort of cringe cause fans of the biggest leagues in the world don't represent their fan base like that.

agree to disagree

[Fort York Redcoat]

I Didn't suggest that TFC is worth more in dollars, I just highlighted the fact that every team in a multi billion dollar league shares their stadium with multi sports and events, on a much more vulnerable playing surface, being ice. Has the pitch been perfect/up to our quality standards every game in the past?

you are right that their quality will only be enhanced... And so will ours, we just did a $110MM.upgrade to our stadium. Our owners are investing millions into our pitch. The game day experience will be awesome! For both franchises. To me it just looks like we are spoiled when we complain that another tenant is moving in to this multi million dollar facility that is publicly owned, yet we are saying "no one else can have this, this is mine, mine, mine". When even I see a sign like that on TV I sort of cringe cause fans of the biggest leagues in the world don't represent their fan base like that.

agree to disagree

Oh we disagree. We disagree antithetically.

You value the stadium the game is played in more where I value the field its played on. The game I come to see - not the stadium surrounding me. My experience is enhanced by those around me but it starts with the game that on the pitch. I never gave a damn about stadium upgrades. They do nothing for me.

What kind of flimsy comparison are you trying to make?

What other league would be in this situation? You say biggest leagues but you can't be talking about our football. The biggest leagues in the world don't share because they know better.

I see your post and see "come on what did the Argos ever do to you?" Nothing. It's what they are about to do that I want to prevent.

Stick around and watch a playoff game from around our league and listen to the jeers at the state of the pitch. It happens every year. And its justified. And we may be on the receiving end of that soon enough.

[Pint]

Comparing other leagues to soccer is simply incorrect IMO. What other leagues have supporters spending thousands of dollars to create banner, tifos etc the best you will see at other sports is something scribbled on a piece of bristol board. Also i couldn't find an article but i remember hearing somewhere that the ACC ice would be better if the arena was colder but that the people in stadium don't like it cold.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Comparing other leagues to soccer is simply incorrect IMO. What other leagues have supporters spending thousands of dollars to create banner, tifos etc the best you will see at other sports is something scribbled on a piece of bristol board. Also i couldn't find an article but i remember hearing somewhere that the ACC ice would be better if the arena was colder but that the people in stadium don't like it cold.

But the sushi would taste better served shilled. Priorities.

[Beach_Red]

Wrong.

If people want to assume what we think that is on them.

I don't think TFC is worth more in dollars. That is not what drives its worth for me. I don't know why it would for you.

And yes Leaf fans should do something, anything more than what they do if its important to them to not have one of the worst ice conditions in the league.

You say we come off as spoiled. I say we want to keep the quality we have. This bullshit groundshare could've been avoided long ago and btw

How is it we come off as spoiled when its our game that suffers and they get the same deal as always. Not first tenant, not their colour scheme, what a sacrifice. No one is ruining the quality of the game you pay to watch.

Yes, this is it right here. Do something. These things are always presented to us as take-it-or-leave-it but it doesn't have to be that way. As much as I dislike MLSE they have responded to the fans - often the problem is the fans are divided in what they want. In this case, though, TFC supporters have been almost completely united - grass, no lines. MLSE's response to that was some kind of hybrid and a power washer (the garden hose example they showed clearly wasn't good enough).

It's not spoiled to set the parameters of the negotiation - and it is a negotiation.

[Beach_Red]

But the sushi would taste better served shilled. Priorities.

The funny thing is the ACC was designed for basketball and the Leafs were added later. So, in their own way, the Leafs are the Argos of the ACC.