Argos to BMO decision - Wednesday, May 20th

[Fort York Redcoat]

What's with the painted logo on the grass and in the south end? Is this another MLSE lie.

Depends on who you think they are giving that lie to.

It's not like it's a photo, troy. It's just to get the fans of the Double Blue all in the mood.

[Beach_Red]

I see where you are going with this - willing to take you on. Understand that the whole thing is perception/vision/prediction - a fact free debate - my favourite kind.

Why will MLS grow while CFL fades?

A factor that you forget when looking at both NFL over CFL and Euro leagues over MLS is the quality of television production. Euro and NFL will always be an enticing television production- sort of the rich get richer aspect of tv sports. My view is that the MLS is ahead of CFL in both quality of coverage, desire to improve the tv product (after all MLS compete against NFL, NBA, MLB in differing variations in all markets save Vancouver and Montreal) AND an interest in social media.

The related x media factor - I have always explained the difference between North American sports and the world passion for soccer this way. North Americans fall in love with their sport on television - they confirm their love by attending a game, but it is a media saturated passion (hockey without Hockey Night in Canada? LA Dodgers without Vin Scully, John Madden and the NFL - hey even Marv Albert and the NBA spring to mind). The world falls in love with soccer at the stadium - they confirm their love by watching it on tv - but it is a love that begins in the open air. Maybe, just maybe, the kids growing up at the MLS stadiums are going to be involved in a sea change in MLS television ratings.

The home grown hero factor - I am old enough to remember the 86 World Cup and Canada men's team qualifying, so I know how long I have been holding my breath on this one)... but one day a Canadian star will emerge and TFC will build their fortune around him. The CFL equivalent does not exist - if a football superstar Johnny Canuck arrives - he will go to the NFL.

The global factor - World Cups, Olympics, Euros will always serve to bring awareness to soccer that CFL can't compete with. This factor grows further out of control if you combine it with the home grown hero factor

The female participation factor - MLSE and TFC have dropped the ball on this one imho, but TFC and MLS have the opportunity to present an enhanced family friendly product by adding a TFC Women's team. CFL will never have a Christine Sinclair...

just throwing a few out there....

I appreciate this, thanks. I'm not sure it's enough to make MLS all that different from the CFL, but I hope you're right.

The media did factor is interesting, but I think I disagree with you. Baseball is kind of a separate institution from other sports in the USA and football and basketball fans do seem to fall in love with the sports in stadiums - high school and college stadiums. Of course, Canada is different, but in terms of MLS success Canada also doesn't mean much. The league needs big US tv ratings.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I appreciate this, thanks. I'm not sure it's enough to make MLS all that different from the CFL, but I hope you're right.

The media did factor is interesting, but I think I disagree with you. Baseball is kind of a separate institution from other sports in the USA and football and basketball fans do seem to fall in love with the sports in stadiums - high school and college stadiums. Of course, Canada is different, but in terms of MLS success Canada also doesn't mean much. The league needs big US tv ratings.

Ooooo a reaching comparison to add could be the linking of Uni/college popularity that Bball and Gridiron have in the US and

how the CFL and Uni Gridiron struggles to push the popularity of the game here and the US wants to up the college footy popularity pretty badly.

[Beach_Red]

Ooooo a reaching comparison to add could be the linking of Uni/college popularity that Bball and Gridiron have in the US and

how the CFL and Uni Gridiron struggles to push the popularity of the game here and the US wants to up the college footy popularity pretty badly.

I don't understand, is there some push for US college football to played in Canad? Or are you talking about on tv? One thing that gets overlooked when talking about the popularity of the Als in Montreal was the huge increase in interest in football at CEGEPs and universities in Quebec. I don't know if that support is slipping.

And I have no idea what kind of support soccer gets in either the US or Canada at the college/university level but I hope it's good and getting better. Those places don't just develop players, more importantly they develop fans.

[Still Kicking]

I appreciate this, thanks. I'm not sure it's enough to make MLS all that different from the CFL, but I hope you're right.

The media did factor is interesting, but I think I disagree with you. Baseball is kind of a separate institution from other sports in the USA and football and basketball fans do seem to fall in love with the sports in stadiums - high school and college stadiums. Of course, Canada is different, but in terms of MLS success Canada also doesn't mean much. The league needs big US tv ratings.

Thanks for thanking me! Maybe I should tweak my "North Americans fall in love with their sports on tv" argument by claiming this is a more northern than southern aspect due to climate? I would still argue that before one is old enough to attend a high school/college stadium for a football and/or basketball game (and I understand the importance of these levels to the fabric of these sports in America) you have learned the sport as a kid watching NFL/NBA tv with your father or older brother. Remember, I wrap my theory around the experience of teaching elementary school in tough parts of Toronto. The kids I knew were coming into school the next day saying "did you see on tv" not "somebody took me to" and they are years short of high school... Baseball in America is a whole different topic- not sure how to weave it into a MLS vs CFL decline discussion (but if I come up with something wacky, count on me to contribute) - but I will say that the Blue Jays are responsible for weakening the CFL in Ontario for decades now. Enough so that the Ontario summer/fall team sports dollar (ticket sales and ratings) struggle, imho, will be baseball vs soccer...

[Fort York Redcoat]

I don't understand, is there some push for US college football to played in Canad? Or are you talking about on tv? One thing that gets overlooked when talking about the popularity of the Als in Montreal was the huge increase in interest in football at CEGEPs and universities in Quebec. I don't know if that support is slipping.

And I have no idea what kind of support soccer gets in either the US or Canada at the college/university level but I hope it's good and getting better. Those places don't just develop players, more importantly they develop fans.

No, no. I was just stretching comparisons since people were looking for them.

Canada Uni pushing CFL is "good" for CFL but it can't push much further in popularity since there is such a dependance on star quality from NCAA...

could be compared with

NCAA soccer struggling to gain popularity compared to the other big NCAA sports which doesn't help MLS.

I just wanted in on the comparison game we were playing here.

[OgtheDim]

A quick look around at mid week Jays attendance #'s early last season would show that the Jays are a dip in and out phenomena. They are the buffet table at a conference - dip in when you want, if you want, when stuff comes out that you like, and it will always be there.

And for a good chunk of the last 20 years, their big attendance days have been a version of 905 pre-club time.

If the Jays flop this season, they will go back to 13K attendance on Tuesday nights.

[Beach_Red]

Thanks for thanking me! Maybe I should tweak my "North Americans fall in love with their sports on tv" argument by claiming this is a more northern than southern aspect due to climate? I would still argue that before one is old enough to attend a high school/college stadium for a football and/or basketball game (and I understand the importance of these levels to the fabric of these sports in America) you have learned the sport as a kid watching NFL/NBA tv with your father or older brother. Remember, I wrap my theory around the experience of teaching elementary school in tough parts of Toronto. The kids I knew were coming into school the next day saying "did you see on tv" not "somebody took me to" and they are years short of high school... Baseball in America is a whole different topic- not sure how to weave it into a MLS vs CFL decline discussion (but if I come up with something wacky, count on me to contribute) - but I will say that the Blue Jays are responsible for weakening the CFL in Ontario for decades now. Enough so that the Ontario summer/fall team sports dollar (ticket sales and ratings) struggle, imho, will be baseball vs soccer...

Looking forward to the wackiness .

I guess what I was noticing in this thread was the similarity between the CFL in Canada and MLS in the US and I'm hoping that the same things that have sunk the CFL in Toronto (tier two, not the best league in the world, lack of respect in the media, etc.,) don't hold back MLS in the US. MLS may be okay because it relies on a different sports fan than football or baseball. If there are enough of those. MLS probably made a mistake going after the 'suburban soccer' fans but thanks to us and Portland and Seattle those days may be over.

[Onyx]

A quick look around at mid week Jays attendance #'s early last season would show that the Jays are a dip in and out phenomena. They are the buffet table at a conference - dip in when you want, if you want, when stuff comes out that you like, and it will always be there.

And for a good chunk of the last 20 years, their big attendance days have been a version of 905 pre-club time.

If the Jays flop this season, they will go back to 13K attendance on Tuesday nights.

I was at a game last season in may and their couldn't have been more than 8000 at rogers centre, it was actually kinda of depressing like the final days of the expos. Then the season just turned 180 in the summer.

[Red CB Toronto]

A quick look around at mid week Jays attendance #'s early last season would show that the Jays are a dip in and out phenomena. They are the buffet table at a conference - dip in when you want, if you want, when stuff comes out that you like, and it will always be there.

And for a good chunk of the last 20 years, their big attendance days have been a version of 905 pre-club time.

If the Jays flop this season, they will go back to 13K attendance on Tuesday nights.

The biggest thing that will benefit the Jays this season is the vast amount of tickets they have sold right out of the gate. So even if by July they are not doing well a crazy amount of tickets have already been sold. Season tickets and flex packs have also seen a pretty good jump. So it will be interesting.

[greatwhitenorf]

For those with a sense of skepticism about the future of MLS, just look at the calibre of ownership throughout the league. Billionaires out the ying yang, some of the brightest and most forward looking entrepreneurs in the world. Plus sports and entertainment superstars happily lending their names and fames to the cause.

[Adamo23]

Anti-Argo banners should send a message. Like the "No Argos at Bmo" banner used last year

[Beach_Red]

For those with a sense of skepticism about the future of MLS, just look at the calibre of ownership throughout the league. Billionaires out the ying yang, some of the brightest and most forward looking entrepreneurs in the world. Plus sports and entertainment superstars happily lending their names and fames to the cause.

Yes, that's true about the ownership. Of course, what that also means is that if their American soccer teams don't make enough money they can drop them and not really notice.

Personally I would prefer it if there were fewer billionaires and a little more grassroots-style ownership, but I'm old and grew up in a different era. I need to learn to embrace our billionaire overlords.

[molenshtain]

Yes, that's true about the ownership. Of course, what that also means is that if their American soccer teams don't make enough money they can drop them and not really notice.

Personally I would prefer it if there were fewer billionaires and a little more grassroots-style ownership, but I'm old and grew up in a different era. I need to learn to embrace our billionaire overlords.

grass roots ownership has as many shortcomings, if not more, than the benevolent billionaire. For them it's just as much about having a successful play thing and being worshiped in whatever city their team is in as it is about making money. It's also becoming stupidly expensive to own and operate an MLS team. Orlando spent at least 70 million on the expansion fee plus at least another 120 million on their stadium. That's a very big financial commitment. These guys are in it for the long haul.

It's also basically illegal under MLS rules to have fans own a team. same as the NFL.

[zeelaw]

Anti-Argo banners should send a message. Like the "No Argos at Bmo" banner used last year

Which achieved what exactly? Some free beer?

[Beach_Red]

grass roots ownership has as many shortcomings, if not more, than the benevolent billionaire. For them it's just as much about having a successful play thing and being worshiped in whatever city their team is in as it is about making money. It's also becoming stupidly expensive to own and operate an MLS team. Orlando spent at least 70 million on the expansion fee plus at least another 120 million on their stadium. That's a very big financial commitment. These guys are in it for the long haul.

It's also basically illegal under MLS rules to have fans own a team. same as the NFL.

Oh, I'm well-aware of the importance of billionaire beneficiaries in today's world. It's just a little ironic that the same guys we're putting our faith in to make MLS a great league are the ones responsible for this thread, the ones bringing the dying CFL team into the stadium. So, they don't always make good decisions.

[TFC07]

Anti-Argo banners should send a message. Like the "No Argos at Bmo" banner used last year

Or better yet, root for Hamilton Ti-Cats and go to their games at BMO field to root for them. TiCat fans outnumbering Argos fans at BMO field would be more embarrassing for Argos than anything TFC supporters can come up with.

[molenshtain]

Oh, I'm well-aware of the importance of billionaire beneficiaries in today's world. It's just a little ironic that the same guys we're putting our faith in to make MLS a great league are the ones responsible for this thread, the ones bringing the dying CFL team into the stadium. So, they don't always make good decisions.

Only due to short-term necessitate and divided attention. I thin they understand that this isn't a perfect solution, and when an opportunity arises that allows us to change our circumstances and remain in a proper stadium, they'll pull the trigger.

[Red4ever]

Which achieved what exactly? Some free beer?

*Count it and the foul!*

[BelfastBoy]

Which achieved what exactly? Some free beer?

It also winds up Argos fans.

[Fort York Redcoat]

For those with a sense of skepticism about the future of MLS, just look at the calibre of ownership throughout the league. Billionaires out the ying yang, some of the brightest and most forward looking entrepreneurs in the world. Plus sports and entertainment superstars happily lending their names and fames to the cause.

This is timely with Bob Young's pseudo announcement or rumour about helping create a new soccer league to partner with the CFL.

Best case scenario is that this happens and a partnership with the Argos drives the 2 teams uptown IMO.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Anti-Argo banners should send a message. Like the "No Argos at Bmo" banner used last year

Message sent. Doing it now does nothing unless it makes you feel better. It made more sense when the message made a difference and the decision unannounced.

Or better yet, root for Hamilton Ti-Cats and go to their games at BMO field to root for them. TiCat fans outnumbering Argos fans at BMO field would be more embarrassing for Argos than anything TFC supporters can come up with.

If one is a CFL fan then go ahead but if I was going to attend a game I'd be for my local team. But since I'm not I won't be giving the Argos or the CFL my money to spite them.

And Ti-Cat fans have come close to outnumbering Argos fans in Rogers Centre. They've dealt with that embarrassment and lived.

It also winds up Argos fans.

I'd rather spend resources on the team I support than one I don't.

[OgtheDim]

Argo fans are not an enemy. Winding them up is pointless. Yes, there are trolls on Twitter who have said stupid stuff. Most of them live out west and are secretly scared of soccer.

Don't give them the attention they want.


Focus on the issue - the turf.

[BelfastBoy]

Argo fans are not an enemy. Winding them up is pointless. Yes, there are trolls on Twitter who have said stupid stuff. Most of them live out west and are secretly scared of soccer.

Don't give them the attention they want.


Focus on the issue - the turf.

I can just picture Argos fans chanting 'wreck the grass!' at their games this year. That's what 'some' of them are like.

[OgtheDim]

I can just picture Argos fans chanting 'wreck the grass!' at their games this year. That's what 'some' of them are like.

First of all, Argo fans don't chant anything. They used to chant "Argos" but now only do that when prompted by the in stadium announcers.

Heck, no CFL fans chants anything. Its not a football thing. They all "MAKE SOME NOISE FOR YOUR DEFENCE!!!!" when prompted but that's about it.

As for the "some", maybe 5. Seriously, most of them could care less about the surface. Never trust social media to be reality.

[Adamo23]

I can just picture Argos fans chanting 'wreck the grass!' at their games this year. That's what 'some' of them are like.

Wonder how MLSE is gonna react to that

[Fort York Redcoat]

Wonder how MLSE is gonna react to that

To what? The 5 imaginary Argos fans that would care to hate on us enough to yell that at a game or actually how MLSE will react to wrecked grass? Because they're pretty much counting on a grounds crew for that.

[Red CB Toronto]

This debate, conversation, discussion completely reminds me of this song, sometimes can not even get it out of my head.

[eustacchio]

I wonder how the ticket sales are going today (not really, but...) - still don't see any 'Sold Out' sections although there are a couple of 'N/A's

[nascarguy]

This is timely with Bob Young's pseudo announcement or rumour about helping create a new soccer league to partner with the CFL.

Best case scenario is that this happens and a partnership with the Argos drives the 2 teams uptown IMO.

I will give the team in Hamilton the same time to grow just like I did for TFC. there is a supporter group already