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  1. #2851
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    First question at the GM lunch today.

    One wrinkle.


    Bez indicated they might consider real grass for the first year.

    Says desso has issues with replacing an area wheras with real grass they can bring in grown stuff.

    Again, just thinking about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TravelPat View Post
    I know some people disagree with me but I do personally find it kind of strange that very faded lines appear to be such a big issue for some that somehow detracts from their viewing pleasure while watching a game. Are you not at least as equally distracted by the appearance of striped looking fields because of the way the grass is cut in various stadiums around the world?

    Here a picture of last night followed by the home pitch for Arsenal.

    Well let me ask you this… which feels more like a home. This:



    Or this:



    ?

    Viewing experience is one thing. Giving first rate money to MLSE who treat TFC as a second or third rate property is another issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    First question at the GM lunch today.

    One wrinkle.


    Bez indicated they might consider real grass for the first year.

    Says desso has issues with replacing an area wheras with real grass they can bring in grown stuff.

    Again, just thinking about it.
    "Thinking about it" implies "No plan in place yet" doesn't it?

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    It implies various ideas but nothing decided.

    He also mentioned safe standing as an option for the south, with a name check about general admission.

    Nothing is decided it seems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    It implies various ideas but nothing decided.

    He also mentioned safe standing as an option for the south, with a name check about general admission.

    Nothing is decided it seems.
    Well, that's understandable. This kind of sprung up on them didn't it?

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    Sure Pookie - show the most extreme examples. I'd completely get it if you end up with football markings or a baseball infield and I completely get people being upset IF the field ends up being chewed up. But I just won't understand and never will those who put so much emphasis on BARELY VISIBLE lines. Yet how often have we read here things like 'If I see faded lines - that is it I'm done' or some variation of that. I'm sorry - but I just think that is laughable - and I'm a huge soccer fan.

    Last night people people were complaining about seeing the lines at THF. They were BARELY VISIBLE.

    This a drone video that flew right over the field last night (as an aside - a very cool video but the fact somebody can control one of these things all the way from the edge of the escarpment a couple of kilometres away and fly it directly over the stadium must be setting off alarm bells for Pan Am security people).




    Here are a couple of screen grabs.




    As you can see the lines last night were barely visible.

    If the first TFC game after an Argos game next year has good turf conditions but football lines are ever so faintly visible like here at THF - is that REALLY a deal breaker for some of you?

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    The answer is yes. Any sign of this stupid sport at BMO is a deal breaker for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TravelPat View Post


    As you can see the lines last night were barely visible.

    If the first TFC game after an Argos game next year has good turf conditions but football lines are ever so faintly visible like here at THF - is that REALLY a deal breaker for some of you?
    The issue is bigger than smudges. It goes to trust. Without giving a history lesson let's just say that promises made over 9+ seasons and the way supporters have been treated leave a lot to be desired.

    They are saying trust us. This surface will work. Trust us, the lines won't be visible. They can't (or won't) show us the magical line removing result so you can understand why people would then get to the point of not believing the hybrid surface will work out. If smudges were the only thing, fine. It's not though. It's the latest thing in a long line of things.

    In the tunnel leading to the pitch is a slogan. "This is Our House." Supporters have been used to market the team for years. And maybe we were dumb to believe it was really our team, our house. But clearly, if the owner-operator of TFC doesn't want to protect the house, I think many will ask "why should I?"

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    OK - appreciate the honest answers Pookie and Blixa. And Blixa I'm sad to say I suspect there will be some traces of the lines based on anything I've seen on other sports fields.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TravelPat View Post
    If the first TFC game after an Argos game next year has good turf conditions but football lines are ever so faintly visible like here at THF - is that REALLY a deal breaker for some of you?
    If the Argos had played today, in these conditions, the field would be a disaster.

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    Turf field experience has no bearing on what can happen with a grass or desso situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by prizby View Post
    If the Argos had played today, in these conditions, the field would be a disaster.
    The bit behind the south end line where TFC subs practised was turning to mush.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Turf field experience has no bearing on what can happen with a grass or desso situation.
    If you are referring to faded lines still being visible - one obvious example on Grass/desso was the Slovenia - England match at Wembley where you could still see very faded NFL lines - not much different than the VERY faded appearance of lines at THF the other night. So I'm guessing it is likely we will see something that looks like this next season after Argos games.

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    TFC isn't going to be playing every week at home so couldn't they schedule Argo home games around that so there could be two week breaks in between TFC games. The Argo's play like 8-9? home games right? I'm sure they could schedule around TFC games to give the grass the maximum recovery time.

    I still think the best solution is to roll over turf as its the best of both worlds, Argo's can have their advertisements on field with lines while the impact on the grass would be very minimal.

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    If they stick with the current plan - of Argos playing on the grass my guess is that as often as possible they schedule the Argos games to be a day or two after a TFC home game. So if TFC are home on a Wednesday night - the Argos are home that Thursday (or Friday). If TFC are home Saturday - the Argos home Sunday. And you might see the odd Friday night TFC game (since the MLS is committed to weekly Friday night games on Univision) in which case the Argos would be home Saturday (or Sunday).

    So in most of those cases the field would have 12 - 13 days to recover if TFC were to have a balanced home one week - away the next type of schedule.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    First question at the GM lunch today.

    One wrinkle.

    Bez indicated they might consider real grass for the first year.

    Says desso has issues with replacing an area wheras with real grass they can bring in grown stuff.

    Again, just thinking about it.
    This really has me worried. It matches what I wrote a few pages ago, that the Denver Broncos can't replace worn patches between games, because of the Desso fibres running through their pitch. So they over-seed / regrow grass between games instead. That only works because they are usually the only user of the field, and the NFL schedule often has a couple of weeks between home games. (Even in that case, imagine what happens if it rains during the next gridiron game as well, with linebackers digging into grass that's only a few weeks old.)

    What does "consider real grass for the first year" mean? That they don't actually know what will work, even though they publicly pretend like it will be no problem? Will this be a multi-year trial & error thing? Boggles the mind.

    Replacing patches of 100% real grass in the middle of the season is very far from ideal as well. It takes a long time for freshly-laid sod to root and especially to merge with the adjoining grass. The seams can be a huge problem. Then imagine how sod patches that are a few weeks old will handle the next CFL game.

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    Richard and TravelPat -- yes sometimes they should be able to leave 13 days from an Argos game to the next TFC game at BMO. But as I said before, that often won't be possible. Reasons:

    - Broadcasters (both Cdn & US) often have their own ideas. As we've seen over the years in MLS, we often get strange and irregular scheduling, mostly due to the broadcaster's wishes.

    - Consider 2016: TFC is starting on the road again, with only away games at least as long as this year, due to the next phase of the BMO reno. And MLS has usually started TFC on a short road trip, even when there's no construction, due to the crappy Toronto weather in March. That doesn't leave much time afterwards to make up all the home games, and there will be no way to schedule them all in two-week intervals.

    - Breaks for FIFA/international games further disrupt the schedule, which means you have to squeeze TFC home games into the remaining time.

    - Forget about 2-week intervals -- due to all the above reasons, we even have some Wednesday evening home games, with 3 or 4 days between games. Then add CCL games, friendlies, CMNT or CWNT games, rugby, etc???


    One of the City documents about BMO Field states that the Argos must have no adverse effects on soccer. Does somebody know which document that is? I couldn't find it recently while searching.
    Last edited by Auzzy; 06-01-2015 at 06:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auzzy View Post
    Richard and TravelPat -- yes sometimes they should be able to leave 13 days from an Argos game to the next TFC game at BMO. But as I said before, that often won't be possible. Reasons:

    - Broadcasters (both Cdn & US) often have their own ideas. As we've seen over the years in MLS, we often get strange and irregular scheduling, mostly due to the broadcaster's wishes.

    - Consider 2016: TFC is starting on the road again, with only away games at least as long as this year, due to the next phase of the BMO reno. And MLS has usually started TFC on a short road trip, even when there's no construction, due to the crappy Toronto weather in March. That doesn't leave much time afterwards to make up all the home games, and there will be no way to schedule them all in two-week intervals.

    - Breaks for FIFA/international games further disrupt the schedule, which means you have to squeeze TFC home games into the remaining time.

    - Forget about 2-week intervals -- due to all the above reasons, we even have some Wednesday evening home games, with 3 or 4 days between games. Then add CCL games, friendlies, CMNT or CWNT games, rugby, etc???


    One of the City documents about BMO Field states that the Argos must have no adverse effects on soccer. Does somebody know which document that is? I couldn't find it recently while searching.
    What a statement like that means could mean different things to different people. Adverse Field conditions I would assume means the actually quality of the field and has nothing to do with lines and/or shadows being seen. At the end of the day field condition is far more important than of you lines on it as that does not have any effect on the play.

    Remember The Man, The Legend, The Goal 5-12-07 and All That #9 Left On The Pitch, Thanks For The Memories !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red CB Toronto View Post
    What a statement like that means could mean different things to different people. Adverse Field conditions I would assume means the actually quality of the field and has nothing to do with lines and/or shadows being seen. At the end of the day field condition is far more important than of you lines on it as that does not have any effect on the play.
    Yeah for sure, my posts were mostly about the Desso/regular grass question, quality/condition of the surface, and time for recovery/repair of the pitch between games.

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    After 100 pages of this ... someone tell me, how is this a debate?

    There will be a couple of games a year, at least, where the field is a mess and/or lines are visible.

    They will do what they can, but it can't/won't be nearly good enough from a TFC POV.

    That's it.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    I'm more upset about potentially the North end being gone at this point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    After 100 pages of this ... someone tell me, how is this a debate?

    There will be a couple of games a year, at least, where the field is a mess and/or lines are visible.

    They will do what they can, but it can't/won't be nearly good enough from a TFC POV.

    That's it.
    And after 8 years of weak play, finally, FINALLY we have a team that seems to be playing good enough football to make the playoffs and maybe do some damage. We can't let the field become a mess. They (MLSE and the City of Toronto) have to see that handegg and grass is a disaster waiting to happen (regardless of plastic fibers jammed into it) and they need to go with turf over the grass IF that will protect the grass for TFC. I personally don't care about faint lines, but respect others that feel it is critical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TravelPat View Post
    If you are referring to faded lines still being visible - one obvious example on Grass/desso was the Slovenia - England match at Wembley where you could still see very faded NFL lines - not much different than the VERY faded appearance of lines at THF the other night. So I'm guessing it is likely we will see something that looks like this next season after Argos games.
    If they could just perfect in stadium hologram technology, they would save a lot of money on paint… and garden hoses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bones View Post
    And after 8 years of weak play, finally, FINALLY we have a team that seems to be playing good enough football to make the playoffs and maybe do some damage. We can't let the field become a mess. They (MLSE and the City of Toronto) have to see that handegg and grass is a disaster waiting to happen (regardless of plastic fibers jammed into it) and they need to go with turf over the grass IF that will protect the grass for TFC. I personally don't care about faint lines, but respect others that feel it is critical.
    Tim Leiweke says they will keep the grass.

    Tim Leiweke is leaving.

    Grass is at significant risk as the ruined pitch is easily solved with turf. It may be high quality turf but still turf… like in Seattle, Portland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    Tim Leiweke says they will keep the grass.

    Tim Leiweke is leaving.

    Grass is at significant risk as the ruined pitch is easily solved with turf. It may be high quality turf but still turf… like in Seattle, Portland.
    Roll away turf is acceptable...turf instead of grass is not. That simple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bones View Post
    Roll away turf is acceptable...turf instead of grass is not. That simple.
    Is anyone, anywhere talking about roll away turf outside of this forum?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    After 100 pages of this ... someone tell me, how is this a debate?

    There will be a couple of games a year, at least, where the field is a mess and/or lines are visible.

    They will do what they can, but it can't/won't be nearly good enough from a TFC POV.

    That's it.
    ensco this thread, like all threads, does not live or die on debate alone. At this point it serves as an updater mostly. Every time FO gets around to hinting about what they are actually going to do to allay our concerns we can talk about it here.

    I hope it can turn into a quick research thread where FO actually announces their intentions and we can scour for information they will no doubt omit to placate us.

    Until then, we all check in to see who has any new info or opinion.

    That is all we can do.
    FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    After 100 pages of this ... someone tell me, how is this a debate?

    There will be a couple of games a year, at least, where the field is a mess and/or lines are visible.

    They will do what they can, but it can't/won't be nearly good enough from a TFC POV.

    That's it.
    When TFC first joined MLS it was a league-changing event. A soccer-specific stadium that was filled with supporters. It was new for the league and pointed to a new direction. It's a tough adjustment to make, to realize that TFC - and soccer - is really just another business, no different from the CFL or any other real estate deal.

    We'll get used to it, of course, but it's an adjustment.

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    Not sure much updating or discussion is going on. I find this thread frustrating because there are interesting issues to discuss, but it's mostly just endless emotional argument.

    We are not very important to MLSE, if we didn't all agree on that before, we all agree now.

    I think I hate this hockey/Grey Cup reno and this Argos thing, I don't believe a word of the guarantees, but the facts will speak, and they are not knowable yet.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    TFC is worth way more than the Argos
    MLSE has spent tons of money to get TFC going

    I think they have lots to lose here if they mess up, its in their best interest to get this right. If they don't, they have to choices...continue to have a shitty field and lose tons of tfc fans or rethink the field and try something else.

    All we can do at this point is wait and see


    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Not sure much updating or discussion is going on. I find this thread frustrating because there are interesting issues to discuss, but it's mostly just endless emotional argument.

    We are not very important to MLSE, if we didn't all agree on that before, we all agree now.

    I think I hate this hockey/Grey Cup reno and this Argos thing, I don't believe a word of the guarantees, but the facts will speak, and they are not knowable yet.

 

 

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