I don't think this is the case at all.Originally Posted by Pookie
that's quite a leap.
I don't think this is the case at all.
that's quite a leap.
Current Grey Cup ticket availability. Each available seat is marked in blue. In the witty words of Arash Madani - More blue dots than a Viagra convention:
http://www.ticketmaster.ca/104th-gre...0050EBD80E7CD8
What a service the Argos at BMO Field has done for the CFL.
Last edited by greatwhitenorf; 10-10-2016 at 11:29 PM.
Plenty of prairie people plopping peat patties about whether the new stadiums in Regina and Winnipeg will be able to host a viable football league in the near future and justify all the costs to build these stadiums. They know this floundering Argos franchise is a huge element in continuing to keep the CFL propped up.
They're watching Argo games and trying to will us to attend them.
Probably the same in Ottawa, with its expensively reno'd stadium now embroiled in legal shitstorms.
And people wonder what the true motives are for the operators behind this proposed Canadian Soccer League. Christ, it's sheer desperation over what the future holds.
Last edited by greatwhitenorf; 10-10-2016 at 11:41 PM.
It's all relative isn't it? They aren't the number 1 draw but the question is can they be sustainable?
The season after the Grey Cup 4 years ago the attendance average was just shy of 22,000 fans per game and they drew over 35,000 for a playoff game.
Setting records? No of course not. Numbers that keep the business afloat? Yep.
That's why current owners say they are in it for the long term.
Let's also remember that pre Beckham predictions for TFC were 14,000 a game. Even at that low figure, you could carve a nice little niche business out there. Appeal to a subset of the sports market and make a dollar.
Even if the Argos are a niche team. Find themselves on the back pages of the sports section. Never have a pre or post game show. Get stuck on an obscure Sportsnet channel that isn't advertised well. They can still be a viable business, particularly with deep pocketed, content driven owners which at the end of the day doesn't change the BMO equation MLSE used to calculate ROI on their renovations.
Nothing about yesterday's attendance changes the ground share.... which is working.
Last edited by Pookie; 10-11-2016 at 05:30 AM.
How so?
When TFC played Montreal in the playoffs last year and drew over 500k, we can't make an assumption that the bulk of the viewers were likely from those markets?
When over 60% of that audience was on French language RDS, we can't safely say it's likely that the majority of those RDS viewers were Impact fans in Quebec?
Labour day game involving Hamilton and Toronto would likely have national appeal oven the circumstances of the holiday. But midweek or follow up games likely wouldn't. They drew something like 400-500k for the week after labour day. Pretty safe assumption there was that it was driven by local market interest.
Same with Toronto-Ottawa. Particularly midweek games with 7pm EST start times.
Paying money and then getting it back from
Naming rights is a bit of a political move when the net effect is that you are not out of pocket.
Happens all the time though. Argos benefited too. CFL wouldn't subsidize the team but hey look, 3 grey cups (that ironically probably won't sell out due to the money grabbing ticket price structure that 2/3rds of MLSE put forward).
MLSE wants Argos to pay $10M for renos. They don't have it. But with Grey Cups, supposedly worth about $10m, there you go.
Risk here is that they don't sell them out and with the price of 1 game, equal to 8, we could have an MLS Cup 2.0 on our hands with a commissioner coming to town to intervene and ensure it isn't an embarrassment.
I really don't think this Grey Cup here will sell out at those prices.
CFL is different. There are people who watch every single CFL game. Do not make the assumption that interest is within the 416.
Wow. For the fun of it, I clicked on greatwhitenorf's link to Grey Cup Tickets. Narrowed down randomly on Section 108. As he said, there are a ton of blue dots. Clicked on one. $699 for that seat came up as the price. Are they serious?
I know MLSE doesn't own the Argos, but their ownership sure bought the MLSE book on ticket gouging. Why not, for once, focus on giving people some value? Our TFC tickets are going to be trending up a lot I bet too, especially if we are fielding decent teams.
Last edited by Canary10; 10-11-2016 at 09:23 AM.
“We think for Toronto pricing, that’s just about right. It’s a championship game, I’m not worried about (sales) at all." - Sara Moore; Argos senior VP of business operations
To answer your question: Yes, they are serious.
I know. It was more of a rhetorical question. I love the "Toronto pricing" quote. Like, people are paying a million dollars for an average house here, are stretched to the limit, but if they pay more for a house, why not for tickets to a stupid game?
I guess this could be the only good opprotunity where the Argos could pay MLSE their $10M. Looking at the sales as of now it doesn't look good.
While I didn't watch the telecast of the Monday game other than seeing a half-time segment, I did watch TSN's sports report this morning. If you're an Argos fan, it's grim viewing. If you're involved in marketing the CFL, it's even grimmer viewing.
Watching the clips of game action, the electronic board ads at field side were often showing the 'This Is Argos Football' slogan. Not advertisements paid for by outside sponsors. No. Just an in-house slogan to fill blank, unsold advertising space.
Other times, it acknowledged the Toronto Sun as official media partner. If that arrangement actually generates revenue, it can't be much since there's a league-wide deal in place with that media entity.
After the game, they showed Argos coach Steve Milanovich in the post game media conference talking in front of a step-and-repeat backdrop featuring logos for Bell, BMO Field and the Argos. That's the owner's plugging themselves, their stadium and the team. Again, no outside revenue being created. Look at other sports teams and you'll see paid-for advertising by prime sponsors all over these boards.
So, despite reports that the Argonauts draw large TV audiences, it isn't being translated into advertising dollars. It isn't new. At the Rogers Centre, they tried to cover empty seats with advertising tarps. Eventually, those tarps reflected the same dismal situation we see today.
Poor crowds, scant suite sales, negligible commercial presence. And now they're out of the playoffs and putting an early frost over any local enthusiasm for the Grey Cup. Yeah, that move to BMO Field has really worked out well.
Last edited by greatwhitenorf; 10-11-2016 at 09:58 AM.
There was maybe 10k yesterday. The team couldn't be worse on the field. Overall, this year has been a failure of epic proportions. I heard people singing seven nation army during drinking games at the tailgate.
Sounds like they've gone to the UP Express school of pricing.
There must be some back door discounts on this thing. Even for MLSE and Bell it's a stretch to be this dense.
Don't be so hasty to dismiss the collective denseness surrounding CFL marketing.
Here's a picture from last year's announcement of the awarding of the 2016 Grey Cup to Toronto. Toronto Mayor (and former CFL commissioner) John Tory and current commissioner (and not-so-bright young thing) Jeffrey Orridge at a photo op. They're promoting the event which is to be held at BMO Field.
What's that harshly-maligned stadium in the background?
Something tells me a certain VP of business operations will be eating her words very, very soon. Stay tuned...
Cityplace?
The excitement was giddy way-back-when
https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/cf...155944122.html
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
Serious question...
If the Grey Cup does not sell out and (more importantly) has little to no profit, will it have any effect on Argos? TSN? BMO Field?
^ I don't think so.
Not with 2 more coming. There's time to make the $10m back.
As the date gets closer, I imagine that you will see an MLS Cup scenario where they offer a bundle with season tickets or something to that effect. Not sure they can offer a price reset for this one but a game that is watched by millions would be treated with even more of an intervention than when Garber had to talk to MLSE about the MLS Cup.
I also think that their per game pricing might also need a 2007 Roll Back to re-engage the fans. Like TFC experienced, there just isn't value in buying tickets in bulk when you can get them at a discount.
Downside to watch for, I think they will push for standard game times going forward and will have the TV clout to at least make the conversation interesting. With Leiweke gone, TFC First, would be something to keep an eye on.
Let's remember that Tim Lieweke started talking with supporters about renos WITHOUT using the words Grey Cups and Hockey. Or groundshare.
Is that what you meant? Because I was there when he avoided addressing it and I pushed for a response.
That is what you meant by the double negative?
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
I don't know what he said to you behind closed doors though I imagine a discussion with supporters that included grey cups wouldn't have gone well. Good presenters know their audience.
But we do we know what he said publicly on Jan 1, 2014
https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/cf...191351780.html
I think the Argos at Downsview was done before the expansion deal was finalized right?
Somewhere amongst the rumours of MLSE buying them... which I guess turned out to be only 66.67% true.
That some insist there was no interest in working together and it was all the city's doing is... well... funny
Last edited by Pookie; 10-11-2016 at 03:26 PM.
Yes let's compare the MLS Cup that was held in Toronto in 2010 the 4th. season of the MLS in Canada with the Grey Cup a game that has been held in Canada for over a hundred years, by trying to compare that event and the slow ticket sales to this years Grey Cup which so far is not selling too great, keep the comparisons coming lol.
^ The common denominator is pricing and FO treatment. Not years in existence.
Months back I posted that the Argos would struggle based on their pricing model for both games and a missed opportunity with the grey cup. And that I went to a game and won't be back based on that
Do you even know what you are arguing with me about? Or do you just see that I say the words Argos and "ground share working" (which it is) in the same sentence and see red?
Their franchise is in bad shape. Not drawing a lot. Playing crap football. Likely to miss the playoffs where 6 of 9 make it. Only thing slightly less embarrassing would be missing the MLS
Playoffs where 6 of 10 make it. It's horrible.
But they have deep pockets so aren't going out of business yet. And for that
trouble I see grass that's pristine. No lines, a favourable schedule so far and a roof.
Those deep pockets don't like losing money...at all. e.g. TSN was another bad ratings season away from making cuts to CFL program staff. The uptick this season has put that off.
Firstly if they lower prices, they wont be making much money and they still wont get the numbers...as we have said multiple times their fanbase is old and done like BMO...
secondly i dont see TFC's priority for dates over the Argos changing...MLSE will not alienate a fan base that is selling out/filling the stadium to try and revive a dead franchise...only to have two dead franchises...you just throwing darts and stirring shit...
Right. He talked to us before and knew his audience. Which goes against what you've said above. I know one can say where there is smoke there is fire.
One can also say this groundshare doesn't work because we were told things that wouldn't happen and they did. Either one cares or they don't but it's not something that will be forgotten or rewritten.
As this convo veers back again to things outside the state of the pitch after Argos games or pre TFC it gets repetitive. The greater talk about the state of the teams deserve to be elsewhere. In here it looks like trolling.
Let's leave the Argos record and endless attendance or viewership IN tHE ARGOS thread for those actually interested in them.
Last edited by Fort York Redcoat; 10-11-2016 at 11:54 PM.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
I personally am looking forward to both TFC playoff games and the Grey Cup at BMO. November is going to be a great month, one that would have not happened without this renovation. Just found out today as a member of the CFL Alumni Association I will be attended the Legends Lunch, it's going to be one heck of a week with beer flowing everywhere. Dam it's going to be one heck of a party. But before pancakes and all TFC will be on the road to a MLS Cup, now you know what will make it even better, Trump going down in flames beforehand.
Go TFC !!!!
Remember The Man, The Legend, The Goal 5-12-07 and All That #9 Left On The Pitch, Thanks For The Memories !!!
The Tanenbaum/Bell deal on the Argos says more about MLSE boardroom politics than any fundamental commitment.
Tanenbaum is supporting Cope's baby, in return for which Cope blocks any future move to remove Tanenbaum from the NHL Board of Governors.
But the deal won't work if there are big financial losses for Larry.
Just my humble opinion.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
Have you guys noticed the sold seat pattern for the Grey Cup? They're pretty much selling them from the cheapest tot he most expensive. The $199-299 seats are mostly gone. That indicates to me that the FO grossly overpriced the tickets in the first place.
However, i just noticed in the last two days that all of a sudden a bunch of the east field level section tickets have been sold. Or have they? Is it possible that the Argos told Ticketmaster to take a bunch of seats off the market to make it appear that sales are going well? Or are they being sold/given to corporate groups?
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