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There's ample reason to hope that Altidore regains the form he had prior to heading to the EPL. Heck, I'd even take his USMNT form. I'm not nearly pessimistic enough to say that this will be the worst mistake TFC has ever made.Originally Posted by InDa_110
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
I'm glad the age old tradition of writing players off before they even play a game for us is alive and well
I don't think it's that so much, I think people are weary of Atlidore's past hamstring injuries coming back to bit us in the ass.
Coupled by the fact that Gilberto was rounding into form, add in the fact that we possibly could have burned some good will with the league by demanding Altidore instead of letting him go to New York (for a dump truck full of Garber bucks) has people on edge.
Many people, myself included believe the club gave up on Gilberto to soon, especially with the additions we've made to the squad this year. Yes many will site the plan was always to move Gilberto on, but he could have played for us for two more years at least, and I happen to believe that because he was just rounding into form, if he had a chance on this team he'd have lit it up this year. Which ironically would have only increased his value and options for a transfer.
If TFC moves Gilberto within MLS and he lights the league up and Altidore flops(god I hope not) the club is going to look like a bunch of idiots. As I've said before, we have to give internationals who are moving from vastly different countries, who don't speak our language and are living in a different culture more than a season to acclimate to their surrondings.
By all accounts Gilberto was fiercely loyal to the shirt, and was committed to coming back to show people he is the real deal, Gilberto didn't expect at first the league would be so hard, but you could tell that he was making his adjustments and they were beginnings to bear fruit.
Your pointing out people are giving up on Altidore before he's played a match, while many of us are looking at the proven track record of the club giving up on players to soon. (Has happened far to many times)
Some specific responses inline- but I'm sorry, I will have to disagree. When people are posting stuff like Gilberto for Atlidore is the worst move the club has ever made - that is writing Altidore off. It assumes that Altidore is going to flop before he kicks a ball.
6 goals for a an injured DP is ok around here. Even for his backup DP, apparently. At least he's a new face to complain about.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
Maybe this will help alleviate our concerns. http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get...FULLTEXT01.pdf
TLDR
- hamstring the most common injury
- hamstring injury doesn't get more prevalent with age (calf injuries do)
- quad injuries take the longest to heal
- turf has lower injury rate (gasp!)
Hold on, I'm going to try to give my crystal ball a good rub.
Oh look!, he completes the season injury-free and scores 21 goals!
Gilberto is more skilled. That's just a fact. My other point was that Gilberto and giovinco are more in line than Altidore. Growing up in Brazil his soccer IQ is similar to giovinco. I will take any bet from anyone who thinks altidore scores more goals than Gilberto assuming they are both in mls this year.
Sorry was at the doctors with my kid, I agree with you. I also agree that the supporters lose faith in the players to quickly.
And I wasn't trying to assume Altidore will flop or hedge my bet or anything, I trying to highlight that the club often quits on a player before we ever see the players true potential, and that the club is often trying to hedge it's bet, instead of bringing in a target player and then not allowing said player to truly acclimate to the club, Ala bringing in Jozy and not giving Gilberto another season when he clearly showed he was truly settling in and coming in form.
Again, it's hyperbole to say they "gave up" on Gilberto; they may have simply felt they could get more out of Altidore. I also find the idea that Gilberto is "rounding into form" a bit laughable; if you look at his track record in Brazil, it was quite common for him in his first six years as a pro to go stretches of ten or fifteen games without a goal -- in fact, most of the time down there he played as a wide forward.
Every player has strengths and weaknesses. Altidore tends to need a free touch or a good look before scoring but he scored one-in-two in the dutch league, whcih is still better than MLS. Hell, he scored one-in-two in MLS when he was a teenager, and he's a better player now.
Really? So you have some qualitative or quantitative data? It's not just an observation?
That's not how it works. If we're in line with this Gilberto defense the bet should be on whether Jozy gets 7, what Gila got last year, this being Altidore's first year back in MLS, no? Otherwise we're just not giving Altidore enough time.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
And yet Atlidore thrived in Holland - how would you explain that, considering that Dutch football isn't exactly kick and chase?
I can see and agree to a certain degree with both sides of the debate, Jloome.
As for Atlidore's track record, I completely agree he was a beast in the Dutch leauge, and his teen years in MLS. I would like it stated though that MLS is far from the league it was when Altidore was a teenager. Jozy grew up, but so has the league, and at this point in time I'm not certain I can define which one has aged better? We will certainly see in the coming season, hopefully Jozy finds his confidence and is able to provide us with the striker we will surely need to be successful. I hope that by being able too play with his long time friend, that he finds his mojo, because your right if he does, he could be dominate and a large factor to our success.
Jozy hasn't lost his confidence with the USMNT, so I wouldn't worry about that. If his confidence was shot he wouldn't be scoring anywhere.
Now, despite the back and forth - my actual opinion on all of this:
I'm not a huge fan of Altidore, and never have been. I think we could have done better on a DP striker. But he certainly has the attributes than could make him very dangerous in this league. He's a TFC player now though, and I'm going to support him and give him the benefit of the doubt.
On Gilberto - decent player, but I wasn't really that impressed with him last season. I'd like to see a second season as well to see, but I think it's far from a given that he's going to knock it out of the park next year - especially considering what jloome posted above about how he seems to be a hot and cold player.
Altidore didn't have any problem in the Dutch league playing with guys like Adam Maher, Maarten Martens, and Rasmus Elm. Playing with smart players wont be a problem
being trained in Brazil does not reflect the soccer IQ a player has. Example, Jackson.
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
I always thought Gilberto would be a good LF because of his speed or LW. This guy is super skilled... He was snake bit early on, but it felt like every single goal was a highlight reel no sitters around the net like Moore. I absolutely hated that comparison because it is in no way a reflection of their skill. If Gilberto stays in this league I will put money on him scoring more then 12 goals, and think he could score 15-20 as a realistic number.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV4O1_fee5A - start at 3:30
Why would you want to make money of an opposing players success?
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
Answer?
I guess that's why NFL is so popular, right? Whatever gets you by, I guess.
I just haven't heard someone show how strong they felt about something by proposing a "bet you any money on it", personally, since my playground days.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
I would have liked to see what Gilberto could do this season for us as well. But even if he did light it up this season, it probably would only hasten his departure to Europe anyway.
I'm not happy with what we spent to bring Altidore here, but I'm not going to write the guy off before he's played a match for us.
Well, I bet 200 dollars the leafs wouldn't make the playoffs, despite being a leaf fan. Pretty happy with that decision. I'm stating my confidence in my belief he will do well in this league. I hope Gilberto does well, he's a hard worker and very skilled. He worked hard for TFC, and was my favourite player. It doesn't seem like he's forcing his way out of town either. The success he will have in this league is inevitable. I will wish him the best... Why can't I cheer for Gilberto when he's not playing against TFC?
Huh When did I say "Any" money. I'm not Bill Gates... You must not get out much because placing bets is quite common man! I don't get it... do you have problems with bets or something?
Free country, Defoe. But one saying they'd bet with someone on a subject doesn't make one sound any more confident in one's opinion than if one uses facts to debate the point with. It's backing up your conjecture with chance, nothing more, with a proposition like that.
And next time I'll "get out" is to the season opener at Shoeless Joe's and most every other away game. Feel free to stop by any time.
Last edited by Fort York Redcoat; 02-10-2015 at 09:41 AM.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
Okay sure would love too. But theres no facts based on this it's just opinion. I think Gilberto will have a good season, would actually literally put money on him scoring more then 15 goals in MLS. I think he's a hell of a player and would gladly put a friendly wager on it.
Ps - I really wish I could change my username, this is like the 3rd time someone has called me "Defoe"
That's not unprecedent. Just leave the actual money betting to real life interactions. Not here. There's plenty of friendly beer wagers that happen every year if you're that interested. I'm sure someone would take you up on it.
And go here
and start a name change thread. Just include what you want it to be. Try to pick one you'll be happen with for a while.
I get you're excited and confident for the player. I can feel your excitement from here. Hope to see you at Joe's.
Last edited by Fort York Redcoat; 02-10-2015 at 02:38 PM.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
there is a forum to request name changes and stuff
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
I personally think Altidore will do fine for us. I think playing with Bradley will do wonders for Altidore game.
He is least of my concern (for now), I still wondering how we will do defensively though. That seems to be a big question mark for this team.
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