Doneil Henry Appreciation Thread

[ensco]

Given this entire thing was engineered to get Henry to the Premier League, I really don't mind that TFC was secretive about his transfer to and loan back from Apollon. It would have been weirder for them to announce the transfer but not be able to mention it was part of a move to West Ham.

How do you know that? It's not the obvious conclusion.

The obvious conclusion is that Henry was moving end of 2014, but Bez pre-sold him (for a lot less than $1.5M I'll wager) to create allocation space last season. Which would mean they transferred allocation dollars forward, for a team that went nowhere, so there's no allocation dollars for 2015, and less dough (maybe a lot less dough?) than they would have had if they'd just done nothing, to boot.

Because there was a stupid playoff guarantee, and all that.

Impossible to know, but this whole cloak and dagger routine around Doneil makes one seriously wonder.

[MightyDM]

Somebody on Media desk for MLSE is asleep this week.


http://www.tribalfootball.com/articl...8#.VJmitv8L0ZA

Allardyce comments about Nelsen are interesting. We clearly have lost something there. Don't see Allardyce or Ferguson or even David Moyes saying that about Vanney.

[Pint]

How do you know that? It's not the obvious conclusion.

The obvious conclusion is that Henry was moving end of 2014, but Bez pre-sold him (for a lot less than $1.5M I'll wager) to create allocation space last season. Which would mean they transferred allocation dollars forward, for a team that went nowhere, so there's no allocation dollars for 2015, and less dough (maybe a lot less dough?) than they would have had if they'd just done nothing, to boot.

Because there was a stupid playoff guarantee, and all that.

Impossible to know, but this whole cloak and dagger routine around Doneil makes one seriously wonder.

or... after the training stints he had last year, Aldardyce knew he wanted him but it would be difficult to get him. TFC worked with West Ham and Henry to make the move to Cyprus where the team receives a fee and allocation $$ while keeping a sell on %, TFC and Henry know that getting exceptional status will be difficult so the backup plan is engineered with Cyprus being the back door. Now being open about the move in the offseason may draw some red flags to the plan so they decide that keeping it secret would best for the player and team. Fast forward to now and Henry gets his work permit and will have a fee associated with him again and since we have a sell on clause we get $$ and allocation again essentially taking less actual $$ but equal or more allocation.

Now we are both just weaving stories but either could be true or a combination. We have a tendency to point to the most negative scenario all the time but maybe, just maybe our GM who also worked at the league and had a hand in the last CBA knew what he was doing in this case.

[ensco]

or... after the training stints he had last year, Aldardyce knew he wanted him but it would be difficult to get him. TFC worked with West Ham and Henry to make the move to Cyprus where the team receives a fee and allocation $$ while keeping a sell on %, TFC and Henry know that getting exceptional status will be difficult so the backup plan is engineered with Cyprus being the back door. Now being open about the move in the offseason may draw some red flags to the plan so they decide that keeping it secret would best for the player and team. Fast forward to now and Henry gets his work permit and will have a fee associated with him again and since we have a sell on clause we get $$ and allocation again essentially taking less actual $$ but equal or more allocation.

Now we are both just weaving stories but either could be true or a combination. We have a tendency to point to the most negative scenario all the time but maybe, just maybe our GM who also worked at the league and had a hand in the last CBA knew what he was doing in this case.

I don't see why TFC would have had any need to resolve any of this at the beginnng of 2014.

I wanted to believe in Bez but benefit of the doubt time is over, Bez has mishandled a bunch of stuff, the whole Laba thing, making the announcement about Defoe being in play but then not moving him, hiring Vanney without a process ... I mean, watch Bez being interviewed, he is just not that guy.

[Ajax TFC]

Allardyce comments about Nelsen are interesting. We clearly have lost something there. Don't see Allardyce or Ferguson or even David Moyes saying that about Vanney.

There's lots of people in football who have the respect of top people. We all already knew about the respect that people in England have for Nelsen before he even arrived here. That doesn't automatically make him a good coach, and the fact that people in England know Nelsen and not Vanney shouldn't mean anything. People in MLS know Vanney, and a certain Bruce Arena (you know, the guy who keeps winning the cup) has voiced his support for him, and that should count for more than any international backing

[notthesun]

How do you know that? It's not the obvious conclusion.

The obvious conclusion is that Henry was moving end of 2014, but Bez pre-sold him (for a lot less than $1.5M I'll wager) to create allocation space last season. Which would mean they transferred allocation dollars forward, for a team that went nowhere, so there's no allocation dollars for 2015, and less dough (maybe a lot less dough?) than they would have had if they'd just done nothing, to boot.

Because there was a stupid playoff guarantee, and all that.

Impossible to know, but this whole cloak and dagger routine around Doneil makes one seriously wonder.

I think it's fairly clear what happened. Henry trained with West Ham, they wanted him, and Henry wanted to go.

We did him a favor by selling him to a club in Cyprus so he could get a work permit to play in England, and also by getting him loaned back to us so he wouldn't be stuck in Cyprus for a year. We benefit by getting Henry for the year and by getting allocation dollars we couldn't get otherwise because he had to go through Cyprus to get to West Ham. Apollon benefits by getting a transfer fee. West Ham gets the player they wanted, and Henry gets his dream move.

It's a win-win-win-win.

Actual mismanagement of this situation would have seen us ship Henry off to Cyprus at the start of the season with no explanation, or worse, block the move entirely.

[Yohan]

those 'training' stints, they really are at least part trials...

[ensco]

Given this entire thing was engineered to get Henry to the Premier League, I really don't mind that TFC was secretive about his transfer to and loan back from Apollon. It would have been weirder for them to announce the transfer but not be able to mention it was part of a move to West Ham.

I think it's fairly clear what happened. Henry trained with West Ham, they wanted him, and Henry wanted to go.

We did him a favor by selling him to a club in Cyprus so he could get a work permit to play in England, and also by getting him loaned back to us so he wouldn't be stuck in Cyprus for a year. We benefit by getting Henry for the year and by getting allocation dollars we couldn't get otherwise because he had to go through Cyprus to get to West Ham. Apollon benefits by getting a transfer fee. West Ham gets the player they wanted, and Henry gets his dream move.

It's a win-win-win-win.

Actual mismanagement of this situation would have seen us ship Henry off to Cyprus at the start of the season with no explanation, or worse, block the move entirely.

What does the ownership of a guy's contract have to do with anything? I could see some sort of argument if it was a meaningful club, that somehow showed Henry was an exceptional player, but a nothing team in Cyprus? That team/league are smaller minnows than MLS.

It is his nationality that creates the problem in getting a UK work permit. I see nothing in any web search implying any advantage conferred on an applicant whose contract is owned by an EU team. The appeals panel for UK work permits is appointed by the FA, these people would know that the Cyprus league is a smaller minnow than MLS.

[Areathrasher]

How do you know that? It's not the obvious conclusion.

The obvious conclusion is that Henry was moving end of 2014, but Bez pre-sold him (for a lot less than $1.5M I'll wager) to create allocation space last season. Which would mean they transferred allocation dollars forward, for a team that went nowhere, so there's no allocation dollars for 2015, and less dough (maybe a lot less dough?) than they would have had if they'd just done nothing, to boot.

Because there was a stupid playoff guarantee, and all that.

Impossible to know, but this whole cloak and dagger routine around Doneil makes one seriously wonder.

He also said there’s a chance the club from Cyprus could sell Henry off to another team in Europe, but only after first consulting with TFC. If Henry was sold, Toronto would receive compensation, but Bezbatchenko wouldn’t offer specifics.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/doneil-henry-tfc-toronto-fc-mls-major-league-soccer/

[ensco]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/doneil-henry-tfc-toronto-fc-mls-major-league-soccer/

The question remains, why?

That story fits the narrative that they were burning the furniture to heat the house last year. There is never any mention of an EPL option being part of the thinking (and like I said, I don't know what that thinking could have been).

[Canary10]

I would love someone to explain how having your contract owned by a club in Cyprus for a few months gets you a work permit in the UK. I honestly don't understand that. Jloome, you've written a lot about that. Do you know?

[MightyDM]

There's lots of people in football who have the respect of top people. We all already knew about the respect that people in England have for Nelsen before he even arrived here. That doesn't automatically make him a good coach, and the fact that people in England know Nelsen and not Vanney shouldn't mean anything. People in MLS know Vanney, and a certain Bruce Arena (you know, the guy who keeps winning the cup) has voiced his support for him, and that should count for more than any international backing

One of the arts of management is the identification of talent. The best in the business think Nelsen has that - losing it is a loss both from the knowledge perspective, and from recruitment, particularly overseas. Vanney may have other qualities, like giving a good interview, but not that. So it's a loss.

[Areathrasher]

The question remains, why?

That story fits the narrative that they were burning the furniture to heat the house last year. There is never any mention of an EPL option being part of the thinking (and like I said, I don't know what that thinking could have been).

You've lost me tbh

[ensco]

You've lost me tbh

Bottom line: they had a cap problem last spring. Leiweke told Bez: do what you need to do without wrecking the team. Bez's solution: sell Henry forward at price X (my guess: a lot less than WHU ultimately paid) to receive the allocation in 2014 (and not in 2015, which is what would have happened if TFC had just held Henry in 2014).

Bez gambled and lost, took a lesser amount assuming Henry wouldn't really be sold to a West Ham. So we have nothing (or much less than we should have had) to show for it, whatever we received last year was used to keep Caldwell, or whatever.

Nelsen's role in those news stories, and Bez's non-role, is circumstantial evidence to this: I suspect this was a source of conflict between Bez and Nelsen, Bez didn't believe Nelsen when he said he rated Henry as a legit prospect to sell. Nelsen is enjoying turning the knife now.

You cannot be a cap whiz if you can't evaluate talent. The two are not separable.

[Richard]

I would love someone to explain how having your contract owned by a club in Cyprus for a few months gets you a work permit in the UK. I honestly don't understand that. Jloome, you've written a lot about that. Do you know?

Jloome did post on how it works out, essentially what happens is that Henry's agent buys him property, then he gets citizenship through that from the Turkish govt because of the poor economy. The rest is just a formailty with the EPL FA. Apparently Turkey gives you a golden ticket.

Ok.... so this is probably how this goes down:

-- Kia Joorabchian realizes there is a loophole in Cyprus' passport law with respect to football; the $2.5M required to automatically get citizenship is a pretty low barrier, especially when there's nothing in the regulation that says you must MAINTAIN that level of income. Just that you have it when you apply. This gives him a chance to test whether he can use the nation to regular get around work permit regs.

-- He approaches Limassol, one of several clubs in Cyprus hit hard by the economic crisis there and needing an infusion of investment. He can't do so directly, but he CAN arrange for the club to get a slice of a bunch of deals.

-- He opens a joint account in Cyprus between one of his companies and the player in question. He purchases a local property (pretty cheap for a guy of his enormous wealth) and starts a company. Bingo, because the player is jointly assigned to the account, or has one started for him with a $2.5M deposit, and is employed by the company in Cyprus, he gets a fast-tracked passport.

-- Joorabchian has it written into the sell-on club's contract with the player that any upfront money is granted back. OR, if the joint account thing worked, he doesn't even have to do that.

The sell-on club maintains the illusion of propriety by applying for a work permit. In the meantime, the passport app is already underway. During the appeal process for the permit, or at the initial hearing if its granted, they point out that he now has a cyprus passport. He's granted a work permit. We don't hear what the argument was during the process, so the backdoor through cyprus isn't publicly discussed.

Something like that.

If it works, expect other Canadian and low-ranked-nation youth stars to use it. Joorabchian (or whoever, others will do it if it's a legal loophole) just has to cut the intermediary cyprus club a portion of the transfer each time, take a big chunk himself and, bob's your uncle, without spending an actual dime (except for buying house, a pretty low-end investment) he's raking in millions in agent fees.

It doesn't matter. His agent is now probably working with Joorabchian to get him a cyprus passport; there's a loophole based on declared assets. So all they have to do is have Joorbanian buy him the assets, then have a clause in the west ham contract referring any cyprus assets back to Joorbanian and bingo, Cyprus passport allowing EU work.

But it takes a while and they probably figure they might as well just appeal based on "wonderkid" status; there's a clause in the Brit system that you can appeal the max appearance regulations and national rating if the player is considered a major prospect, but it's rarely granted these days.

It's something like that. Toronto probably felt it was too risky so they took the money from the cyprus club upfront; that way, if the passport scam falls apart they're still compensated for their player.

[Canary10]

Jloome did post on how it works out, essentially what happens is that Henry's agent buys him property, then he gets citizenship through that from the Turkish govt because of the poor economy. The rest is just a formailty with the EPL FA. Apparently Turkey gives you a golden ticket.

Has any of this actually happened? Shouldn't be hard to know if he has a passport, no? Is April to now even enough time to get a passport?

[ensco]

Jloome did post on how it works out, essentially what happens is that Henry's agent buys him property, then he gets citizenship through that from the Turkish govt because of the poor economy. The rest is just a formailty with the EPL FA. Apparently Turkey gives you a golden ticket.

Jezz, that is crazy, I have trouble believing that this could work. But I respect jloome, so maybe it's possible.

[ag futbol]

You cannot be a cap whiz if you can't evaluate talent. The two are not separable.

He's really a guy who should be sitting in the back of the office with a stack of papers and a calculator. Someone else should say "I want this guy" and he should be tasked with figuring out how to do it or if it can be done at a good price. Full GM role is a bit laughable.

[Areathrasher]

Bottom line: they had a cap problem last spring. Leiweke told Bez: do what you need to do without wrecking the team. Bez's solution: sell Henry forward at price X (my guess: a lot less than WHU ultimately paid) to receive the allocation in 2014 (and not in 2015, which is what would have happened if TFC had just held Henry in 2014).

Bez gambled and lost, took a lesser amount assuming Henry wouldn't really be sold to a West Ham. So we have nothing (or much less than we should have had) to show for it, whatever we received last year was used to keep Caldwell, or whatever.

Nelsen's role in those news stories, and Bez's non-role, is circumstantial evidence to this: I suspect this was a source of conflict between Bez and Nelsen, Bez didn't believe Nelsen when he said he rated Henry as a legit prospect to sell. Nelsen is enjoying turning the knife now.

You cannot be a cap whiz if you can't evaluate talent. The two are not separable.

That's a big reach.

[Richard]

Its a little disappointing were even having the transfer discussion at all, not that I don't think its valid because of the secrecy involved, I just wish everything wasn't so muddy every time with this club

So back on topic, best moment for me last season.

[ensco]

That's a big reach.

Not as big as jloome's

Something TFC don't want to talk about is going on, that is for sure.

[Canary10]

Not as big as jloome's

Something TFC don't want to talk about is going on, that is for sure.

I really hope any cap crunch wasn't caused by Julio Cesar.

[Canary10]

Its a little disappointing were even having the transfer discussion at all, not that I don't think its valid because of the secrecy involved, I just wish everything wasn't so muddy every time with this club

So back on topic, best moment for me last season.

That was amazing. Thanks for the post. It is really incredible that Henry didn't appear on any of MLSsoccer.com's lists of top young players. Those writers should be walking around with their tails between their legs right now.

[RealG-TFC]

That was amazing. Thanks for the post. It is really incredible that Henry didn't appear on any of MLSsoccer.com's lists of top young players. Those writers should be walking around with their tails between their legs right now.

And still they are too busy apotheosizing Yedlin while Henry is on his way to a Top 4 club.

[ensco]

And still they are too busy apotheosizing Yedlin while Henry is on his way to a Top 4 club.

Great use of the word "apotheosizing"!

You the man!

[Areathrasher]

Not as big as jloome's

Something TFC don't want to talk about is going on, that is for sure.

Jloome's theory has some legs to it though - see Juan Agudelo

I mean whats more likely

A. TFC are in such a cap crunch they have to call in Kia Joochabarain to concoct a deal to sell Henry and loan him back and bank the allocation.

B. Big Sam wants Henry that bad after his trial that he calls in Kia Joochabarain to concoct a deal to get around/help with the WP process.

West Ham have a much bigger history with Joochabarain than TFC do as well.

[ensco]

Jloome's theory has some legs to it though - see Juan Agudelo

I mean whats more likely

A. TFC are in such a cap crunch they have to call in Kia Joochabarain to concoct a deal to sell Henry and loan him back and bank the allocation.

B. Big Sam wants Henry that bad after his trial that he calls in Kia Joochabarain to concoct a deal to get around/help with the WP process.

West Ham have a much bigger history with Joochabarain than TFC do as well.

I don't see TFC's compelling interest in option B without getting paid properly. Doneil isn't a free agent, why not just keep him? Unless you don't rate him, of course, which is the essence of this.

[Beach_Red]

Not as big as jloome's

Something TFC don't want to talk about is going on, that is for sure.

As usual.

[notthesun]

What does the ownership of a guy's contract have to do with anything? I could see some sort of argument if it was a meaningful club, that somehow showed Henry was an exceptional player, but a nothing team in Cyprus? That team/league are smaller minnows than MLS.

It is his nationality that creates the problem in getting a UK work permit. I see nothing in any web search implying any advantage conferred on an applicant whose contract is owned by an EU team. The appeals panel for UK work permits is appointed by the FA, these people would know that the Cyprus league is a smaller minnow than MLS.

Loophole in the system with respect to getting a passport from Cyprus as jloome posted.

Just look at the timeline. November 2013, he trains with West Ham and "absolutely smashed it" as de Vos put it back then. April 2014, we sell him to Apollon and Joorabchian gets to work on his passport. December 2014, he gets his permit and West Ham immediately swoops in.

It's connect-the-dots.

[ensco]

Loophole in the system with respect to getting a passport from Cyprus as jloome posted.

Just look at the timeline. November 2013, he trains with West Ham and "absolutely smashed it" as de Vos put it back then. April 2014, we sell him to Apollon and Joorabchian gets to work on his passport. December 2014, he gets his permit and West Ham immediately swoops in.

It's connect-the-dots.

Could be. I dunno, doesn't line up for me. No way to know.

With that, outta here, Merry Xmas to all. Go Heat! (tomorrow anyway)