And it wasn't just a panic at a poor run of form. It was firing a coach who had completely lost the plot and had numerous key players disillusioned with his training regiments, among other things.
And it wasn't just a panic at a poor run of form. It was firing a coach who had completely lost the plot and had numerous key players disillusioned with his training regiments, among other things.
4. Right wing wrong way
One of criticism of Nelsen is that he built the team to play only one way, which was counter utilizing pace. Hence why TFC has Jackson and Oduro. Both have good pace, but very little footy IQ. Oduro has some finishing. Jackson has better technical ability, but inconsistent. Jackson also has defensive work rate, but Oduro has better temperament. Both can play more than 1 position.
Oduro had base salary of 250k, while Jackson is at 150k. So, both should be about starters in any MLS club, but they have been inconsistent throughout their careers. So the question is, is it individual fault, or is the manager not using them correctly? Jackson had a 4 goal, 7 assist season in 2012, while Oduro had a 13 goal 4 assist season in 2013. So both of them are capable of putting up good stats. But are they worth keeping?
In MLS, you'll never get the perfect player. The manager that can fit a player into his system within the cap is going to be successful. You'll never get perfect player, but you'll have to make do in a lot of cases. I think both players can fit within Vanney's system.
If Vanney plays 4-3-3, Jackson is a fit at right wing. He'll never be the smartest footballer and he's always one red mist away from a red card, but he'll work his ass off and track back on defence, which is critical for a winger in a 4-3-3. He can cross and he does have that Brazilian magic to beat a defender 1v1, both not consistently, but you make do. He'd fit well in SKC's high press 4-3-3 actually. Keep his assignment simple and you'll get use out of Jackson. Once you expect too much out of Jackson, that's when his game goes haywire.
Oduro is a striker, not a winger. Because he has no crossing ability, he can't keep a defender honest. On wing, a defender will stand off, negating Oduro's pace and dare him to cross. That makes him useless. Oduro needs space to run and he's the threat when he has a throughball or a lob to run onto, while he's playing off the last defender. It's more effective if you have an AM who knows what he's doing. Having Oduro up front means the opposition defence can't play a high line for the fear of getting caught too far up the pitch. This creates room for the midfield to pass the ball around. Play him as a CF and to his strength, especially as 2nd half sub keeps opposition defence off balance esp when fatigued.
By no means I'm saying keep Oduro and Jackson at all cost. If a fair trade comes along, sure, trade one or both of them. But both still has uses. TFC just has to play these guys to their strengths, and I think they can work under Vanney's system.
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
yes there was a distinct drop in his form due to the injury. He was dominant in those early games ...he was playing inured at the WC...and never fully recovered when he returned. This rest and surgery could be very good for him and we will have him back to his best in March.Originally Posted by notthesun
This season can be stated one way.. Michael Bradley... if we hadn't picked up Bradley we'd be in the playoffs. We didn't know how to use him, we didn't have the players to use him, he is a great players but not the right player.
Part two. We Signed Gilberto but then Signed Defoe... that is another situation where we signed the wrong player to go with the players we already had. If we had signed a Strong Attacking Mid DP, and a decent MLS forward Nelsen would likely still have a job.
Nelsen didn't believe in an AM. He thought Gilberto and Defoe would make a good tandem.
As for being in the playoffs without Bradley, maybe a midfield of Laba and Osorio would have gotten us there - but I doubt it.
I'd rather have Bradley then Laba - Bradley you can build a team around. Laba is a great player, and a DM is a must. But he's not as impactful as Bradley.
Agreed, but that was the perception, in my eyes anyway, and you know how much power perception can have.
Defenders: Bloom was good until he had his baby, I don't know why, but he must have lost a lot of sleep. Creavalle looked alright. If Bloom returns to pre-world cup form our right backs are fine. Caldwell is needed at least for one more year. Henry and Hagglund better stay as they will be great for the next 15 years. We need one more center back behind them in case Caldwell is injured. Finally, Morrow and Morgan as our left backs nothing wrong with that.
Center Mids: We are wayyyy too one dimensional. Give the ball to Bradley and run away from him. We looked better without Bradley, but that is because we played as a team without him. When he got back after the World Cup, we relied on him. Literally give the ball to him no matter how much pressure he is under and your job is done. We made him look wayyyyy worse than he actually is and put him under a lot of pressure. That is because no one cares that colin warner or kyle bekker is standing beside Michael Bradley. Put Osorio there. It worked in the beginning of the season I don't understand why we didn't leave it like that.
Wingers: Our wingers stunk. How many times did a winger cross a ball from open play and our striker headered the ball not even in the net, but on target? 0. Oduro is all speed, no talent, please leave. Jackson is okay, can chip in a few goals and is an okay defender with mls experience. If he is one winger, we need another on the other side such as Brad Davis that will whip in balls all day. Can't play with 2 wingers that are all speed, no crossing. Lovitz is a nice backup, I disliked him a little, but he has potential he's fine
Strikers: Defoe, get out. Gilberto is a stud and will score a bucket of goals next year with a smile on his face. Moore is good enough to play beside him, maybe add one more decent striker if Dike doesn't work out. Wiedeman and De Ro are the 4th and 5th strikers, that's fine
We don't need to revamp the roster. That is the last thing we need. Get rid of Defoe, Oduro, Orr and that's pretty much it. If Dike goes, fine or Bekker whatever but we better not see 10 new guys on the field
Finally: Why is Kansas City giving hometown boy Matt Besler DP Money and we are dying to sell our stud hometown CB Doneil Henry? GTFO the man is going to be Canada's captain, he should be on our team from age 16 until he retires.
The season had some positives, there were a lot of great memories including the season opener at Shoeless, the comeback vs. Columbus and the amazing time I had in Montreal.
However, next year will have greater memories.... We will start off well, the fanbase will be back and we won't cruise into the playoffs, we will cruise into the top 5 places of MLS and make the semi finals at least while winning the Canadian Championship.
[QUOTE=michaeltfc91;170344816
The season had some positives, there were a lot of great memories including the season opener at Shoeless, the comeback vs. Columbus and the amazing time I had in Montreal.
However, next year will have greater memories.... We will start off well, the fanbase will be back and we won't cruise into the playoffs, we will cruise into the top 5 places of MLS and make the semi finals at least while winning the Canadian Championship.[/QUOTE]
Another positive was the comeback against Portland. The place was jumping, the team was fired up, Bradley was a madman!
Nice to see the optimism, hope you're right.
Did he though? he seldom played the two late, was it someone else the believed it and he just towed the line?
Laba could have played a decent DM roll with a DP AM upfront with two forwards that compliment each other, (not who get in each others way) we might have. We played better without Bradley... Not because Bradley was a bad player but because we constantly just gave the ball to Bradley. Then when he had the first surgery he wasn't really as capable though still very good.
We had a hard time getting the ball into the box this year. We didn't have the offensive tools we needed. Worse we traded offensive tools for defensive one.
Honestly Gilberto, Moore, DP AM/Osorio and Laba/Strong MLS DM and a coach that new how to use them could have performed very well... it would have avoided the Bloody Big Deal crap and we'd all be less angry.
At the beginning of the year I said it was a Laba vs Gilberto issue, it was a Laba vs Bradley because it was Bradley's in the same position that forced him out. In the End because our coach and players didn't now what to do with him, Laba likely would have been better. Heck even with Defoe, Laba would have been better. I think given the staff we had, Bradley was the mistake. (By no means do I think he is a bad player, I just think he would have been better served with a different mentality of the coaching staff other then... give the ball to the DP.. and hope he can get it to a forward.
We had other problems.. way too many injuries for example and as good and not enough experience at the back. And apparently a player owned by a Cyprus team but is still playing here... (what is the point of selling a players rights to a club that doesn't want him.) I have to wonder if Payne was a better man for the job. Tim B, still looks like Liz Lemon's agent to me (30 Rock) and has seen moneyball too many times.
A lot of talk about Oduro. Here's my take...
There is only one factor that should determine whether Oduro is kept, and that is the salary cap (or "budget") in the new CBA.
Oduro has speed to burn, but his technical ability on the ball and soccer IQ off of it are pretty bad.
He's just not good enough to be a starter on a successful good team.
Ask yourself, if we traded Oduro to most of the teams in the playoffs, would he start for them?
I would say the answer for the majority of the teams would be "no".
That being said, he can still play an effective role in this league.
The role he is most suited for is as a 2nd half sub, brought on to use his speed to run at and to get behind tired defenders.
The problem with this is that Oduro is being paid $250k.
Under the current cap, you simply can't afford to devote that much of your budget to a bench player.
Now, if the new CBA results in a much higher cap, where Oduro's salary can be better justified for a bench player, great! Keep him.
Otherwise I think TFC should be looking to replace him as depth with a cheaper alternative, and use the freed up budget to bring in a better upgrade on the wing.
He scored 12 goals in 2011 and 13 goals in 2013. So he's not a total thud.
Some players fit better on some teams than another. (see career of Kenny Cooper) It also helps if TFC plays Oduro on his natural position, which is CF. If you get 12-13 goals every season out of a 250k, that's a money well spent. He's not a winger.
I'm not advocating Oduro should be the starting striker, but you do need better context of a player's career prior to arriving at TFC to understand what a player offers.
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
He's also turning 30 this year and will soon start to regress, while MLS continues to get better, especially in terms of technical skill.
I don't think our opinion's are really all that different.
He's not good enough to be a starter going forward on a contending team (which is what we should be striving to be).
And under the current CBA, he's paid too much NOT to be a starter.
Like I said, if the new CBA results in his salary making more sense in a sub role, then I'm all for keeping him as a late game, injection of speed substitute.
He's 30, but he's leaps and bounds faster than most players in MLS. his pace should be good till 32-33. I think he'd be a start for a lot of teams in MLS, a team that can play to his strength. Hell, if Bradley Wright-Phillips can bag 27 playing for NY, I don't see why Oduro can't get at least 20 if he had Thierry Henry feeding him the balls and I don't think BWP is that much better than Oduro.
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
I know someone who there that has suggested an entirely different picture on the draft pick process...what really is the truth. Think management is on a major PR campaign to save their buttsWe really need to have a definitive stick to beat Bez with, is he just a lawyer or an accountant?
From Rollins piece today...
Do tell...
Really enjoying Yohan's and other's takes on some of the players in this thread. I agree generally with the issues raised here, with players needed at CB (we need 1 or 2 more), CM/DM (we need a new partner for Bradley, whether that be Osorio or a new player), wings (Jackson's mediocre, Lovitz is alright, Oduro is a headless chicken who should perhaps be moved to play as a 2nd choice striker or transferred out).
I'd like to quickly ask about midfield, as teams will need good CBs and wings in most of the standard formations anyways. What formation would you like to see for TFC in 2015 under Vanney? Yohan talked about the incompatibility of TFC in a 4-3-3 in the 2nd post (agreed). And I really did not enjoy the 4-4-2 this season, which I thought was designed specifically only because we had 2 DP strikers and much turnover and no other reason, and did not work out as hoped in the end.
I've seen a lot of people calling for a DP #10 to be signed, and I am wondering if these people would like to see a 4-2-3-1 for 2015. I think that's a really good standard formation that should be adopted over the 4-4-2 whenever possible, and it could give a specific midfield role for Bradley as a deep-lying playmaker in one of the two holding mids, while employing a destroyer next to him and a #10 in front who can float outside the penalty area when we are attacking deep in opposing territory. We may have to bring in the destroyer and the #10, but I would also like to see Osorio given a shot at #10. I personally think we could use a DP at wing (or even CB) instead of at #10 at this point.
As for wingers, I am more in favour of putting lefties on the right flank, and putting righties on the left flank, for them to cut in-field and exchange quick passes with the striker and the mids, instead of just crossing from the touchline and praying all game long. I'd love to see what Lovitz could do from the right flank, and with a dynamic right-footed winger cutting in from the left flank. Seeing the usually poor crosses from the right flank from the right boot of Oduro and Jackson was pretty frustrating.
Last edited by ironcub14; 10-29-2014 at 04:23 PM.
I was told it was a team effort however Nelson made the final calls at that time, part of the ongoing friction with Bez, Nelson wanted Haglund early on and trained with him as a pet project with the other defenders at practice.. The defenders in the team were especially upset losing him as a coach.
Part of the problem was the power shifted during the season to Bez. who disagreed with some of the players Nelson wanted to bring in. Some players fall into each other mans selections, team was split before the firing. Suggestions that Nelson was too close to both parties in some of the deals...created distrust...if you get what I mean without suggesting something without proof.
Thanks for sharing.
One data point that leads me to lean more to Rollins account was that Bez was the one scouting at the Las Vegas combine prior to the league run one before the draft. Although, I can totally see Nelesn trying to take over things at the draft and wanting Hagglund.
5. It's Better to Have a Good Playmaker than a Good Striker
Let's first clear this up. most playmaker in MLS play central attacking midfielder role, but this is not the case all the time. You can be a playmaker from from any position in midfield or even as a striker. Generally a CAM ends up being a playmaker because he can dictate the match more easily from centre of the pitch. But you can be a playmaker from the wing a la Landon Donovan, from more deep, second striker role like Thierry Henry or deep lying CM/DM a la Patrice Bernier.
In this case what I mean by a playmaker is a player who is the focus of the attack, who dictates the tempo on offence and who has the technical ability to pass the ball to create quality goal scoring chances. They aren't always clearly defined, because every team plays football differently, but you can usually tell who the guy who takes charge when on attack. In Toronto, it's Bradley, and not the best choice for a playmaker giving his attributes.
Pretty much every team in MLS utilizes some sort of playmaker, and these guys tend to be one of best players on the team due to their footy IQ and technical skills. A good striker will put away most of the chances he gets, but a good playmaker will get multiple players quality chances to score. Ideally you want someone who can create chances and a striker who can put them away, but if I had to pick one, I'd take a good playmaker over a good striker.
Here's why. Good playmaker makes good teammates great and shitty teammates ok on attack. Take Thierry Henry. You can't deny his quality. But through his playmaking skills, he turns his strike partner into amazing MLS players. (and when they go somewhere else, they suck) Example. Kenny Cooper scored 18 goals when playing with Henry. Bradley Freaking Wright-Phillips bagged 27 and he really should have had like 40 and that's not an exaggeration. Even Luke Rodgers, who bagged 9 in 23 playing with Henry. He now plays in English Conference and he can't score for shit.
It's nice to have a clinical finisher like Defoe, who can put away the few chances he gets. But one of issues with Nelsen is that because TFC played primarily on the counter, few quality chances were created. If you create more quality chances, eventually more of them will go in. It also means if you have the ball, then the opponent isn't attacking you. Having possession means nothing if you don't know what to do with the ball, but having a playmaker means there is at least one guy who knows what to do with the ball.
Here's an interesting stat. In 2014 season, 5 out of 10 top goal scorers were not DPs, with 4 out of 6 not being DPs. But 9 out of 11 top assist getters are DPs (Sarvas and Rosales tied for 10th) and 7 out of top 7 are DPs. Here's another interesting fact. Only twice the top 2 goal scorers in a regular season has been a DP (Donovan and Juan Pablo Angel) and since 2009 season, all top 2 scorers have been non DPs. A player may get rewarded with a DP contract later, but top 2 has not been a DP since 09.
What does that mean? It means you can find a good MLS striker without using a DP spot. A lot of factors do have to come together to be the Golden Boot winner, but Wondo and BWP put away 27 and they aren't DPs. Wondo is a bit of freak, and he didn't have service of a playmaker with SJ, but BWP benefitted from playing with Henry, or else he'd have never come close to 27 goals. Just to blow someone's mind, TFC gave away the Golden Boot winner twice, Jeff Cunningham in 09 and De Rosario in 2011.
My point? Given enough chances, even half decent striker can put up double digit numbers in MLS. So, go get us a good playmaker, TFC!
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
Amen.
Gilberto alluded to it being a bit difficult, without having a proper AM feeding him; was very gracious for the efforts of his team-mates, and owned up to missing some chances.. but, conceded, as the reporter was suggesting, that an AM is sorely missed.
Problem for TFC is that all the players that we sign fit better into other teams!
Yep - Vancouver just made the play-offs without a striker of any great merit. All other aspects of the team were working. In-fact they don't really have a DP (yes technically Laba and Morales are...but they are not real DP's) . While not essential though..I can't help think that a top class striker was the difference between Vancouver making the play-offs and contending for the championship. They are only a player or two away & Robinson is only going to get better as a coach. I could see that team going far on CONCACAF next season.
what the heck is a 'real DP'? lol
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
In that case I'll happily take a fake DP in place of Defoe.
I thought he just meant that the two would be considered young DP's, versus real/normal DP's.
I can see what he means, in that players like that you can SOMETIMES sneak in on a normal contract (think Laba's contract is, as you probably know, circa $200k, with his transfer fee categorizing him as a young DP for one more year, if I'm not mistaken). So, I took it to mean that Hamilton_Red was suggesting these guys aren't really your mega-bucks super-stars, in the way we might be looking to fill the DP roles, in support of his point (and similar to the one you were making, earlier, in your 5. post), being an AM is just THAT important, that it got them over the line, despite him not being a big name.
How the hell is Morales not a "real" DP?
They paid a transfer fee for him and he earns $1.4m a year!!!
Thats just crazy talk.
Again, I think that, in the case of Morales in particular, Hamilton_Red is meaning he's not a house-hold name. With Laba, it's both not being a house-hold name, nor being a mega-bucks signing, with respect to what you might generally associate with the DP tag.
Let's not get too far off track, here, guys, and blow this out of proportion. I feel like he was just making a case that an AM is THAT important, to get you over the line, that you might not even have to back up a Brinks truck for one that would have a huge impact and make a world of difference. I happen to think that's a great point, and hope that remains the focus, here.
Yea, they don't have a high profile with casual fans but when they are regarded by MLS commentators as two of the best players in the league and are DPs by the literal definition to call them "not real DPs" is just plain wrong.
I'll leave it at that.
Yep. When push comes to shove they still badly need a quality striker. With that they go from bottom of playoffs to solidly in IMO.
But point taken, they used an AM - two if you count Rosales who played centrally last night and did well, an incredibly ballsy move by robo to drop Morales on a bad day - and did well without any quality up top.
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