Promotion/Relegation Idea

[Initial B]

Mods, not sure if this is the place to discuss this but I thought you could move it somewhere else if it's not appropriate.

With all the arguing about the merits of Promotion/Relegation, I was just wondering if NASL has thought of purchasing the one remaining expansion slot from MLS? If they put forward, say, a $50 million expansion fee they could use the slot to give to the winner of each year's Soccer Bowl. The winner would play a year in MLS before returning to NASL the following year and the next year's Soccer Bowl winner would take their place. It would be a way to expose NASL teams to a higher level of play and raise the quality of the league as teams cycled through MLS. We might even see an extra Canadian team in MLS for a year. It would also provide an attendance boost for teams knowing that someday they could play against MLS teams

It would give MLS some variety in the league every year and would probably stop the constant calls for full promotion/relegation. All the existing MLS franchise owners wouldn't have to worry about being relegated to NASL as the slot would only allow NASL teams to go up and down the pyramid.

Since NASL teams are mostly in the east, the slot should probably stay in the MLS Eastern Conference. As NASL expands westward and MLS expands to 28 teams, perhaps then NASL could purchase a second MLS franchise slot and have two teams to promote/relegate each year, one to the Eastern Conference and one to the Western Conference. And if there are USL Pro teams that want to play in MLS, they can make the jump up to NASL and work their way up the ladder. It's a win-win for all levels of the pyramid.

There's probably a ton of issues I haven't looked at here, but is there anybody else that could point out to me why this could/couldn't work?

[Detroit_TFC]

That's actually quite clever.

[morgank1986]

I like it.

[TOBOR !]

interesting concept.

Things to think about :

what if the 'promoted' side won the MLS Cup, or the Supporters Shield ?

how about the Soccer Bowl winner plays for 'Promotion' against the previously 'promoted' side (effectively giving a team the chance to 'avoid relegation').

[Initial B]

If an NASL side were to win the MLS Cup or Supporter's Shield in the year they were promoted they would be eligible to play in the CCL the following year, but regardless would be playing back in NASL at the same time (checkbox for NASL wanting access to CCL berths). Not to mention NASL vindication that they're just as good as MLS teams and their chance to rub MLS noses in it for a year. Personally I don't think that could happen as NASL teams will not have the salary to compete in the short term.

I wouldn't want to allow the previously promoted side to stay up, because using additional revenue the promoted side might be able to put assemble a quality side that would be unassailable by other NASL teams. The main purpose for this would be to allow for long-term player development by throwing NASL teams into the deep water to give them high-level playing experience that they would then transfer down to the lower levels when they got out of the MLS pool.

The other thing to worry about is that the NASL team would not want to take on too much extra salary so that they're operating at a loss when they go back to NASL the following year. Perhaps they will be able to purchase 1-year contracts on Designated Players to give themselves a chance. But those would be guns for hire - the core of the team would have to be cheap enough that the franchise wouldn't go under when the revenue stream dwindles the following year.

[Yohan]

Cute idea. Will never happen.

It's MLS & USL vs NASL forever. if you read into USSF politics for last 5 years or so, you'd know that MLS will never give NASL a share of it's pie, nor will MLS owners let NASL gain any hint of legitimacy as a D1 league, which NASL aspires to.

[Initial B]

^ So it will be up to the CSA to give NASL legitimacy? That's a scary thought.

Not too knowledgeable about US soccer politics. All I know is that USL and NASL owners had a spat back in 2010 that split them up. I thought with MLS that money talks, no matter where it comes from, so they wouldn't just dismiss the idea out of hand unless they really want NASL to disappear and USL Pro take it's place.

[Yohan]

^ So it will be up to the CSA to give NASL legitimacy? That's a scary thought.

Not too knowledgeable about US soccer politics. All I know is that USL and NASL owners had a spat back in 2010 that split them up. I thought with MLS that money talks, no matter where it comes from, so they wouldn't just dismiss the idea out of hand unless they really want NASL to disappear and USL Pro take it's place.

that's exactly what's going on. MLS with USL is trying to squeeze out NASL as much as possible. NASL is basically expanding wherever they can, but they are slowly getting muscled out because they can't compete with MLS billionaires, and even their best clubs want to jump ship to MLS if they can. Hence why this Canada expansion, because at least in Canada, they have better chance of surviving under CSA umbrella

[Detroit_TFC]

The commish of NASL was on Soccer Morning today, he talks about pro/reg but actually wants to compete head to head with MLS. Doesn't see the need for a pyramid.

http://nasn.tv/2014/soccer-morning-102314/ (Peterson at 25:30 or so)

[Shway]

Cute idea. Will never happen.

It's MLS & USL vs NASL forever. if you read into USSF politics for last 5 years or so, you'd know that MLS will never give NASL a share of it's pie, nor will MLS owners let NASL gain any hint of legitimacy as a D1 league, which NASL aspires to.

Yupppppppppp and thats the bare naked truth.
Unless somehow MLS decides to buy the NASL.

I think promo/rel will come to life, but after the league has grown to 30-32 teams, the current summer schedule will no longer work and neither with the playoff system. To many teams will miss the playoffs (baseball style).

Heres what I would propose for a 32 team league:

MLS1
- 9 teams in the East
- 9 team in the West

Regular season
- 34 game home and away schedule
- Best overall record = Supporter Shield Champions
- Teams placed 8-9 in their respective conference are relegated to MLS2

Playoffs
- Seeds 1-3 in each conference gain a berth to the playoffs
- Seeds 4 & 5 in each conference play a home and away series for the last playoff spot
- All playoff games are home and away aggregate
- Winner = MLS Cup Champions

CCL Spots
MLS Cup Champ
Supporter Shield Winner
MLS Cup Finalist vs. Support Shield Runner (winner gains the berth)
US Open Cup Champs

MLS2
- 7 teams in the east
- 7 teams in the west

Regular Season
- 32 game season (26 games home and away against all teams with 6 additional games against conference teams)
- Best overall record = MLS2 Community Shield Champs & promotion to MLS 1 (lol)

Playoffs
- 1-4 spots in each conference qualify for the playoffs
- semi-final is home and away series (aggregate rule)
- final is played at the highest seed
- winner = MLS2 Cup Champs & promotion to MLS1
- teams place

Promotion scenarios
* If the Community shield champs and the MLS Cup2 champions are both from the same conference then 1st and 2nd from the other conference gain promotion in their respective conference.
* If a team manages to do the double, the MLS Cup2 finalist and the best regular season record will gain promotion. The 2nd place regular season team will gain promotion


This would create hype around every game until last.


BAMMMM MLS Sign me up!

[MartinUtd]

We should relegate ourselves.

Apply for NASL membership and sell the franchise for $100m. When we have things running properly we'll take the $100m and re-apply.

Then Wiedeman will finally get some minutes.

[Initial B]

The commish of NASL was on Soccer Morning today, he talks about pro/reg but actually wants to compete head to head with MLS. Doesn't see the need for a pyramid.

http://nasn.tv/2014/soccer-morning-102314/ (Peterson at 25:30 or so)

Well, he certainly set up his vision of the future. He wants to run NASL against MLS something like the National/American league in MLB. I don't see Garber putting up with that. MLS will do it's darnedest to make sure that never happens. What gets me is that NASL doesn't even have a seat at the USSF executive table while MLS and USL Pro does. I can see why he'd be courting the CSA just to survive, and that's the only reason why Garber chose to make any mention at all about 'Partnering with Canada' in his last speech, to try and take that away from NASL.

[kodiakTFC]

NASL and MLS have very different cba agreements. NASL has a free market and no salary cap so any promoted team would have massive advantages against MLS sides. I would assume MLS would enforce its own rules so promoted teams would have entirely retool its rosters to fall within MLS allotment rules.

[Mark in Ottawa]

There's probably a ton of issues I haven't looked at here, but is there anybody else that could point out to me why this could/couldn't work?

Wouldn't work because the NASL and its clubs don't have the $50M to spend and being a "partner" in the competitions league is most likely against some competition laws.
It wouldn't work because MLS has a stated goal of expanding continually to larger markets and if this means stepping onto an existing NASL team and/or its "territory" then they will just go for it.

These two leagues just have very different "visions" and refuse to compromise enough to work together.

I like the idea though. A very interesting thought.

[Shakes McQueen]

- Would make promoted NASL sides either a) cannonfodder for East teams, or b) financially unstable, as they add MLS-calibre compensation to their financial ledger, only to potentially get relegated back to NASL.
- How would the West feel about their compatriots in the East getting NASL teams to compete against for equivalent playoff spots?

[Oldtimer]

This is North America. Why do we have to copy foreign leagues all the time? We don't have promotion/relegation in baseball, hockey, gridiron, lacrosse, cricket. A playoff system is authentic to where we are.

[Canary10]

This is North America. Why do we have to copy foreign leagues all the time? We don't have promotion/relegation in baseball, hockey, gridiron, lacrosse, cricket. A playoff system is authentic to where we are.

Watching the Philadelphia 76ers throw a season to get the top draft pick shows everything wrong with the system we have right now. I don't care where we are.

[TOBOR !]

Watching the Philadelphia 76ers throw a season to get the top draft pick shows everything wrong with the system we have right now. I don't care where we are.

Sure, and that's why they introduced the lottery system. They can tank and still not get the #1 pick.

Anyway, I don't mind a spot of controversy in my sports. I find without it, all you're left with is a bland concoction of facts. Winners win. The end. Boring.

Remove a few cameras, add some doubts. Was it in ? Not from where I sat. Debate continues decades on. Great stuff.

[Canary10]

Sure, and that's why they introduced the lottery system. They can tank and still not get the #1 pick.

Anyway, I don't mind a spot of controversy in my sports. I find without it, all you're left with is a bland concoction of facts. Winners win. The end. Boring.

Remove a few cameras, add some doubts. Was it in ? Not from where I sat. Debate continues decades on. Great stuff.

Having an incentive to lose in sports is a bizarre concept. That press conference Matteo Ferrari had was interesting I thought.

[Initial B]

Here's what I would propose for a 32 team league:

MLS1
- 9 teams in the East
- 9 team in the West

<snip>

MLS2
- 7 teams in the east
- 7 teams in the west

I was thinking a 32-team MLS would go for an NFL set-up:

MLS
- 16 teams in the East in four, 4-team divisions
- 16 teams in the West in four, 4-team divisions

Regular season
- 34 game home and away schedule in division, playing 1/2-home 1/2-away against all teams from the other divisions
- Best overall record = Supporter Shield Champions

Conference Playoffs
- Top team from each division plus 2 wild cards with next-best records are seeded 1-6 and gain a berth to the playoffs
- Seeds 3/6 and 4/5 play a play-in match at the higher seed's home field. Remaining playoff games are home and away aggregate
- MLS Cup played at a neutral site where its warm/indoors.
- Winner = MLS Cup Champions

CCL Spots
MLS Cup Champ
Supporter Shield Winner
Support Shield Runner-up (can't be from same division)
US Open Cup Champs
In cases of a team winning more than one of these titles, then the spot goes to the next-highest division winner.

The only reason I thought of trying promotion/relegation was to throw a bone to NASL teams and their supporters that continue to dream big. But given the animousity between all the professional soccer divisions in the US, I'm pretty sure this is never going to happen.

[Oldtimer]

The only reason I thought of trying promotion/relegation was to throw a bone to NASL teams and their supporters that continue to dream big. But given the animousity between all the professional soccer divisions in the US, I'm pretty sure this is never going to happen.

I think they get enough of a bone through the Voyageurs Cup and the U.S. open Cup.

[Initial B]

I was doing some more digging on the USSF standards for Div I, II, and III soccer and came across this tidbit:

IV. Division II Men’s Outdoor League:

b. Markets; Stadia; and Fields
i. In the first year, U.S.

‐based teams must be located in at least two different time zones in the continental United States.

By year six, U.S‐based teams must be located in at least the Eastern, Central and Pacific time zones. (These three time zones are required because the majority of the large population centers are located in these time zones.)

ii. At least 75 percent of the league’s teams must play in metropolitan markets of at least 750,000 persons.
iii. All league stadiums must have a minimum seating capacity of 5,000.
iv. Not later than 120 days prior to the start of each season, each team shall have a lease for at least one full season with its home st

adium.

NASL doesn't have any teams in the Pacific timezone. Is it just me, or does that mean the USSF might end up de-sanctioning them in 2017 if they don't have a team in that time zone? If so, NASL should be frantically courting Sacramento Republic or the Orange County Blues to join their league in the next 3 years. That, or find someone to finance a Div II team somewhere along the west coast.

[prizby]

MLS1
- 9 teams in the East
- 9 team in the West

Regular season
- 34 game home and away schedule
- Best overall record = Supporter Shield Champions
- Teams placed 8-9 in their respective conference are relegated to MLS2

If they are playing a balanced schedule (home and away), what if the top 9 teams in the league all come from the same conference...other than that minor hick-up in the idea, I love it

[Shway]

If they are playing a balanced schedule (home and away), what if the top 9 teams in the league all come from the same conference...other than that minor hick-up in the idea, I love it

Thats the beauty of it. Those in conference games become that much more important.
... And also that would be very rare if we saw one conference have the top 9 teams.

If you look at the top 10 teams from the overall standings of the past few years its pretty balanced.

2014 - 5 East/ 5 West
2013 - 4 East/ 6 West
2012 - 6 East/ 4 West
2011 - 5 East/ 5 West

[Yohan]

Thats the beauty of it. Those in conference games become that much more important.
... And also that would be very rare if we saw one conference have the top 9 teams.

If you look at the top 10 teams from the overall standings of the past few years its pretty balanced.

2014 - 5 East/ 5 West
2013 - 4 East/ 6 West
2012 - 6 East/ 4 West
2011 - 5 East/ 5 West

except with unbalanced schedule currently, this data is false. I don't have the data, but West tends to beat up East teams more often than not.

[prizby]

Thats the beauty of it. Those in conference games become that much more important.
... And also that would be very rare if we saw one conference have the top 9 teams.

If you look at the top 10 teams from the overall standings of the past few years its pretty balanced.

2014 - 5 East/ 5 West
2013 - 4 East/ 6 West
2012 - 6 East/ 4 West
2011 - 5 East/ 5 West

you could do well against your own conference and still get relegated for being bad against the other...makes no sense in a balanced schedule

ok but if you are the 14th overall in points and 8th in your conference, you don't deserve to be relegated. Imagine if the EPL (last year) was split into 'conferences' and in 1 conference (the 10 north teams) you had Aston Villa, West Brom, Stoke, Everton, Liverpool, Manchester City, Manchester United, Hull, Newcastle, and Sunderland. You are going to relegate West Brom and Hull for finishing 17th and 16th because they are bottom 2 in their 'conference', but not relegate Norwich for finishing 18th in the league with a balanced schedule...that is ridiculous