Rapids didn't fire Gary Smith...Originally Posted by dutch
Rapids didn't fire Gary Smith...
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
i agree that Vanney speaks well. So far, though, his apparent knowledge doesn't translate onto the field. Remember, if he is here all of next year, he still will not have the head coaching experience by the end of next season that Nelsen had when he was fired.
If he stays, I dont want us to spend a a month and a half below 8th doin the aron winter "wait for it...wait for it......fuck!"
us giving him a chance is just that. One real good chance.
I dont want to hear bez justify his faith in a coach when he's losing, when truthfully its only because the season is not mid way yet.
He gets to talk to bez all winter, he gets his buttload of superdraft picks, he gets his own full preseason. thats it a real opportunity and chance
We stay below 8th for 8 games straight at any time, thats enough for me.
Last edited by dutch; 10-22-2014 at 04:07 AM.
So even though it been pointed out to you that foreign coaches have not done well, you still call it a myth?
I get people are ticked off at the season that has passed, but chucking out reality is not helpful.
Calling it a "myth" doesn't make it true. If you look at the supporters' comments over the years for the US teams whenever a foreign coach experiment is tried, they say it because that's the record. Your argument is exactly why the Galaxy hired Ruud Gullit.
So Gary Smith is unemployed? Funny how no MLS side wants him. If you'll remember, that cup run was more of a fluke of a good run rather than a consistently good team. In fact, it was held up as a reason why MLS should switch to single table instead of playoffs on this very board.
We'll need a better example than Gary Smith to say that foreign coaches can do well in MLS. I have a scientific approach: I'll believe it when I see it, not just take a blind leap of faith that spending money will solve TFC's problems. If you go by the record, keeping Vanney around for several years should get us into the playoffs, statistically speaking.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
Gary Smith, brought into the club to run the academy and ends up first team coach.
Sounds familiar.
Unless there's an obvious hire, I'm more and more okay with Vanney as our coach next year.
It's hard to judge a coach who took over a team in shambles, losing non-stop before he was hired and with a best player who just didn't give a shit.
The tactics he tried to set up are almost irrelevant because it can take half a season to do that even after a full training camp.
I assess him without a knock against him for missing the playoffs because it's really not his fault. It would have been a miracle if they made the playoffs.
The question then is, with all the respective coaches available and pretending Vanney never coached a half-season here already - is he the best hire?
im with you. re your question someone posed the following 1) If TFC was a new entry to the league, didnt have the history it does, would Vanney be a valid candidate 2) If other teams in the league were looking for a new coach and Vanney was available would they select him. I suspect the answer for both would be yes
But easier to judge one who inherited a team securely in the playoffs, who were on a bad run partially due to injuries, and make them worse down the stretch when fully healthy. From that alone I question his ability to lead. Tactics perhaps but inspiring a team and being the leader, I don't see it from that sample size which will be almost 1/3 of a season after we lose this Saturday. Like I said earlier, even Mariner had a solid dead cat bounce. Vanney couldn't even inspire that. With him at the helm next year is lost already and this thread should be aimed at finding manager #10 and we should have about another 8 months before we need to hire a new one.
Vanney inherited a team in third place that had played at a .500 clip in its previous few games. To say it was in a shambles is simply not factual. It was in third place. Yes there were lots of injuries and yes the team was not doing as well as pre World Cup, but overstating the position isn't helpful. In this context, it is impossible to say anything positive about Vanney's coaching ability.
The only positives known about Vanney is that he slightly improved set piece taking and gives a good interview. On the negative side, our offense is slightly worse than before and the defense far worse. Since he didn't wholesale change our tactics, the whole 're-adjustment' to new tactics excuse isn't viable.
Furthermore, when Nelsen was sacked Bez said we aren't in the excuses business and all Nelsen had was excuses (it's true though). So what about Vanney? All I hear are excuses. Not blaming refs and such like Nelsen (also true) but blaming the squad and the previous regime. That would be the same regime that had the team in the playoffs until being removed. I would rather Bez and Vanney just keep quiet if they are both staying as I am tired of the blaming the past regime for initial failures and then using 'gelling' as the excuse when failure continues the next season. I have heard these excuses far more than I ever needed to and if anything, that is our team identity; firing management, player turnover, and endless excuses. The TFC way.
Why not? MLS teams pick players from the lower divisions, why not coaches? If coaches can extract performance from players at that level, then I think their likelihood of getting that performance from MLS calibre players should be just as good. Didn't TFC try to get Adrian Heath from Orlando at one point?
I agree with this. I'm willing to give Vanney another season to see if he can turn things around. We've been through 8 years of futility, what's another year? And who knows, maybe he'll surprise us. I told myself I'd give TFC 10 years to make the playoffs before finding another club to support.
Right but Vanney hasn't had an inform Defoe who was the only reason we were in that place. Without him, we're an average to below-average MLS side with no creativity in midfield and no depth at CB.
Let me ask a question, under Nelsen's tenure, when last did we completely dominate a side or win by more than 2 goals?
Whatever it takes to keep Bradley.
If he likes Vanney, then give him a full season. If he wants change, then find the right coach.
Not many but then again, how many times have we done that under Vanney? Also, under Nelsen were we totally dominated very few times and for the most part were in all of our matches until the end, including road matches. The same cannot be said for Vanney and the squad is the same. This wasn't an Aron Winter record player turnover situation either.
Last edited by Ultra & Proud; 10-22-2014 at 12:17 PM.
I understand the sentiment to keep Vanney since that what what apparently Bezbatchenko told him.
But I bet you Bez was expecting more from the move in the short term, and just might be realizing that Vanney might not be the man.
I do not believe Bez should be making these decisions, and that is where we need a experienced football figure ( with or without MLS experience ).
Last edited by starter; 10-22-2014 at 12:33 PM.
FWIW I think Nelsen's TFC wasn't the right way to go. It was failing under Nelsen but under Vanney it went from failing to failure. With a real, experienced tactical assistant Nelsen may have been able to succeed but with Ol' Fran there, nope. Not enthused by Vanney's lackluster staff either.
Thats exactly how I feel and why I started this thread. people tend to think he had a team in shambles and only a couple games. NO he had OVER a 1/4 of a season and got only 2 wins!?!?
This is all about finding coach #10
Thats what I was thinking and to tell you the truth
If he isnt questioning his own move after this, We are in a whole world of pain to come.
jeesus! "whats another year?!?!?" I dont know how to answer this, whats a year of TFC worth to you? seems like not very much. to me its at least 1/9 of our entire history, Id kill for a summer filled with great soccer. also one more year hung over our heads by the rest of MLS and anyone else who watches, I'd give my left nut to shake that. it means the world to me and it should to bez that we get out of this hole. by any means possible. no more free years for anybody
Last edited by dutch; 10-22-2014 at 12:51 PM.
They rejected his contract option. Same thing.
I just don't know what team you were watching. Really. Our defense was a shambles in Nelsen's last ten games; and our offense under Vanney actually approach competent at getting shots on net, even if it didn't finish them. Under Nelsen, we never looked like a threat unless Defoe got into isolation somehow. I couldn't disagree more with an assessment.
If it means the world to you, look at what works in the rest of the league and have the patience to emulate it. This team will NEVER be turned around just by a coaching hire. It's a multi-year process.
Its funny how on the internet everybody but ourselves has selective amnesia.
Nelsen's last 10 matches gave us some points and tight matches minus the Revs debacle. We were sliding but that slide directly coincided with Caldwell and Morrow going down to injury. Yes chances were not great but the amount of goals scored was higher stats wise under Nelsen. Not many clean sheets against and no Defoe for a few of those matches too. Under Vanney we've had many clean sheets against and I really don't care how many shots go towards goal. Look at that Houston match, what 26 shots, 7 or so on target? That's called wasting your chances and wasting possession. You have players firing from all over the pitch proves nothing except no ideas on how to work the ball low and/or counter with pace. UNder Vanney we beat a defensively frail Portland and Chivas. Enough said about that.
And blowouts in DC and KC
Just hypothetically, who would more likely our players listen to ( including 'stars' ), Floro or Vanney?
Places where that isn't uncommon (for us especially) and we were sporting bad line ups due to injury.
Not sure why Vanney gets a free pass. The sample size is reasonable and there is little positive to look towards. Based on these 10 matches, what is it I am supposed to be looking forward to in 2015? Is this supposed to drum up my excitement for buying more season tix? Or is selling the continually easy sell of turnover, cheap talk, and hope enough to satisfy most? It was for me 7 times already but enough is enough. The longer we lap up this pablum we consistently get fed from the brass and accept 'promises' as truths then we will always be in this boat. I refuse to give them the easy road on this anymore.
No offense bud but i'm not sure what you are trying to say here, you're sick of the turnover so want Vanney out? (More turnover)
I agree.. But
We are at a juncture where we are rebuilding anyway. It is a great opportunity to for once get the right people in place. I think it's much more reasonable to be patient with someone who has done it before - be it here or elsewhere in te world - as opposed to hang our hat on people who we wouldn't be interested in if they weren't already sitting in their seats.
People who have never succeeded can't hold on in this environment when things go poorly. We're saying we need stability but this is a plan that doesn't offer any.
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