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  1. #61
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    Why not look to the NASL to see if there are any coaches who might be able to coach in MLS? The quality of play there is improving at the same rate (though lower quality) as it is in MLS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Getting a foreign coach is much more risky than getting a guy like Vanney.
    At this point, this is pure statistical reality. We have ex-MLS players in New England, New York, Dallas, San Jose, Montreal, Colorado, Portland, Vancouver, Columbus, D.C., Philadelphia....

    When are people here just going to lump it, stop trying to break the mold because it's American? Has anyone watched New England under Heaps? He lost eight in a row last season. And after three years of building with him, they're a pretty damn good team. Same with Dallas, and their ex-MLS player coach has only been there a year, making the most of what Hyndman couldn't.

    All of these teams recognize realities that there are differences when most of your athletes are American and not European; they learn the game differently, their physiology is different (as the cream of elite athletes in the U.S. still go to other sports); they travel constantly, have much less prep time, much less coaching time generally. There's a ton for someone new to pickup, whereas the veteran MLS guy just knows the stuff.

    Anyway, people need to just look at the reality; don't argue "what ifs", because we've been doing that for eight lousy years. Let's go with what other people are doing successfully, stop reinventing the wheel and build a winning team. Build it, not hire or buy it.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Initial B View Post
    Why not look to the NASL to see if there are any coaches who might be able to coach in MLS? The quality of play there is improving at the same rate (though lower quality) as it is in MLS.
    Again, why?

    We've seen what works in other places. Vanney has his 'a' license, has a few years as an assistant; when he was at LA, Bruce Arena said he'd be a great coach someday. And tactically, he seems to know what he's talking about, which is definitely a first here. He's also blunt and honest in assessments and doesn't seem to be playing politics.

    If people react based on the end of this season, the debacle just starts all over again.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Areathrasher View Post
    Compared to others, how does that stack up?
    Information seems to be out there that Schmid and Arena are in the million range. I'm pretty sure Kreis isn't paid a pittance to build NYCFC. Kinnear is getting a raise to go to SJE. New contracts for Vermes and Ben Olsen, IIRC are going to be up there as well.

    A bit of digging gets some old info

    http://www.espnfc.com/story/485610
    Last edited by OgtheDim; 10-21-2014 at 12:16 PM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    A bit of digging gets some old info

    http://www.espnfc.com/story/485610
    I saw that too but it given it's from 2007 didnt take much notice.

    Arena and Sigi are probably out there on their own in the highest paid stakes and Nelsen probably would have been in and around the best of the rest.

    That Guillt salary is a warning to those that want to splash out. Be careful what you wish for
    Last edited by Areathrasher; 10-21-2014 at 12:18 PM.

  6. #66
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    Add Curtin at Philly to that list of building young coaches towards success.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    At this point, this is pure statistical reality. We have ex-MLS players in New England, New York, Dallas, San Jose, Montreal, Colorado, Portland, Vancouver, Columbus, D.C., Philadelphia....

    When are people here just going to lump it, stop trying to break the mold because it's American? Has anyone watched New England under Heaps? He lost eight in a row last season. And after three years of building with him, they're a pretty damn good team. Same with Dallas, and their ex-MLS player coach has only been there a year, making the most of what Hyndman couldn't.

    All of these teams recognize realities that there are differences when most of your athletes are American and not European; they learn the game differently, their physiology is different (as the cream of elite athletes in the U.S. still go to other sports); they travel constantly, have much less prep time, much less coaching time generally. There's a ton for someone new to pickup, whereas the veteran MLS guy just knows the stuff.

    Anyway, people need to just look at the reality; don't argue "what ifs", because we've been doing that for eight lousy years. Let's go with what other people are doing successfully, stop reinventing the wheel and build a winning team. Build it, not hire or buy it.
    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    Again, why?

    We've seen what works in other places. Vanney has his 'a' license, has a few years as an assistant; when he was at LA, Bruce Arena said he'd be a great coach someday. And tactically, he seems to know what he's talking about, which is definitely a first here. He's also blunt and honest in assessments and doesn't seem to be playing politics.

    If people react based on the end of this season, the debacle just starts all over again.
    There is a massive movement to weed out MLS 1.0 managers, at least the ones that seems to not be able to adapt to MLS 2.0 (and arguably, we're already in MLS 2.5-MLS 3.0 era)

    Teams are willing to give ex players turned coach a shot at managing, because they feel these guys have the MLS experience, but young enough to learn and adapt to the new MLS and also flexible to incorporate influx of better foreign talent in the league.

    Old guys like Steve Nicol, Mariner, Hyndman, I guess FOs feel like these guys aren't going to be able to adapt. Or they are good enough for D2/D3 teams, like Preki. I don't think Yallop will find another gig if he gets fired from Chicago. Same I think for Klopas in Montreal. Speaking of Mtl, it's interesting that you'd think Joey Saputo is one of owners who'd be gung ho about finding a foreign manager. But I think last couple of seasons, esp with Schallibaum in charge, taught Saputo a thing or 2 about realities of MLS. (and coincidently, why Jesse Marsch was a better hire than Schallibaum in a lot of regards)

    So in that regard, Vanney is probably one of better candidates out there, if you're looking for a young guy with coaching badges. (Vanney is doing a course with French FA, as well has having his USSF badges)
    Last edited by Yohan; 10-21-2014 at 12:42 PM.
    “Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.

    I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’

    And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”

    -Eduardo Galeano

  8. #68
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    Another couple of things on bringing in a foreign coach or any new one for that fact.

    How does potentially not having a proper preseason if there is a lockout and starting the season on the road for two months play into potential choices?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Areathrasher View Post
    Another couple of things on bringing in a foreign coach or any new one for that fact.

    How does potentially not having a proper preseason if there is a lockout and starting the season on the road for two months play into potential choices?
    Obviously teams with stability in the manager position and in the clubhouse will have a leg up. A huge turnover in either over the off season is not going to be a good thing.

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    just a side note, Octavio Zambrano created the MLS reserve team and academy when he created Metrostars Black. some of the best coaches are old coaches. and he never stopped winning when he left MLS

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Areathrasher View Post
    Another couple of things on bringing in a foreign coach or any new one for that fact.

    How does potentially not having a proper preseason if there is a lockout and starting the season on the road for two months play into potential choices?
    That is a damn good point. Beginning of 2015 season will be a terrible time to break in a new HC.

  12. #72
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    As in case with Nelsen, Vanney is a smooth talker, and a student of the game.
    But if he joined an existing business he would be given a junior position, and not a project leader role. Even if a project leader position was vacant, he would not get it-- business would look for a person with pedigree.
    Trying to rationalize that others do that, may still be characteristics of bush league.
    Vanney could be OK ( or not ), but we should want to be best, and that is not how it is done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by starter View Post
    As in case with Nelsen, Vanney is a smooth talker, and a student of the game.
    But if he joined an existing business he would be given a junior position, and not a project leader role. Even if a project leader position was vacant, he would not get it-- business would look for a person with pedigree.
    Trying to rationalize that others do that, may still be characteristics of bush league.
    Vanney could be OK ( or not ), but we should want to be best, and that is not how it is done.
    You're contradicting yourself here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    That is changing as we speak. Salaries are going up, travel is getting better, and why people assume foreign managers can't rap their head around the requirements of travel and adjust I it, I have no idea. That is not rocket science.

    The failure rate for coaches like Vanney is still significant. The sample size of foreign coaches is small. Backe was not that bad, neither was de Los Cabos despite the Fire not doing much. The facade dies a little bit all the time.

    This is no different than MLS pre-Kreis. What would you have argued then?
    if you get the chance their is video of Backe at the SuperDraft and he had no idea what was going on, it was Richie Williams that was pulling the strings. Thierry Henry will make a good coach and he does understand MLS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by starter View Post
    As in case with Nelsen, Vanney is a smooth talker, and a student of the game.
    But if he joined an existing business he would be given a junior position, and not a project leader role. Even if a project leader position was vacant, he would not get it-- business would look for a person with pedigree.
    Trying to rationalize that others do that, may still be characteristics of bush league.
    Vanney could be OK ( or not ), but we should want to be best, and that is not how it is done.
    Looking for a guy with pedigree? So you've got Bruce, Sigi, and Dutch thinks OZ would do? They are not coming here. Who else? Show me this miracle non-existent winning coach who is not foreign, has first team MLS experience, and is not a washed-up MLS 1.0 coach who can't adjust to the modern era.

    Like Jeremy Loome points out, most MLS winning teams grow their coaches, they don't just splash cash. If Vanney were available, I'd expect you'd find 2-3 teams that would be interested. That wasn't the case with Mariner, or with Schallibaum when he left Montreal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mattsp71 View Post
    if you get the chance their is video of Backe at the SuperDraft and he had no idea what was going on, it was Richie Williams that was pulling the strings. Thierry Henry will make a good coach and he does understand MLS.
    Which is further evidence that foreign coaches don't work well in MLS.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 10-21-2014 at 02:16 PM.
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Looking for a guy with pedigree? So you've got Bruce, Sigi, and Dutch thinks OZ would do? They are not coming here. Who else? Show me this miracle non-existent winning coach who is not foreign, has first team MLS experience, and is not a washed-up MLS 1.0 coach who can't adjust to the modern era.
    Like Jeremy Loome points out, most MLS winning teams grow their coaches, they don't just splash cash. If Vanney were available, I'd expect you'd find 2-3 teams that would be interested. That wasn't the case with Mariner, or with Schallibaum when he left Montreal.
    Which is further evidence that foreign coaches don't work well in MLS.
    I subscribe to idea that MLS moving closer to the world football, and would not be requiring any MLS credentials when choosing a manager. I view MLS knowledge as a form of protectionism maintained by those who get to benefit from it.

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    Grab Radomir Antic .

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Looking for a guy with pedigree? So you've got Bruce, Sigi, and Dutch thinks OZ would do? They are not coming here. Who else? Show me this miracle non-existent winning coach who is not foreign, has first team MLS experience, and is not a washed-up MLS 1.0 coach who can't adjust to the modern era.

    Like Jeremy Loome points out, most MLS winning teams grow their coaches, they don't just splash cash. If Vanney were available, I'd expect you'd find 2-3 teams that would be interested. That wasn't the case with Mariner, or with Schallibaum when he left Montreal.



    Which is further evidence that foreign coaches don't work well in MLS.
    There is no reason why we couldn't get Zambrano. The narrative that only Arena and Sigi are elite and nobody else is worth chasing is false.

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    Quote Originally Posted by starter View Post
    I subscribe to idea that MLS moving closer to the world football, and would not be requiring any MLS credentials when choosing a manager. I view MLS knowledge as a form of protectionism maintained by those who get to benefit from it.
    MLS will always be an alien creature with a single entity and byzantine rules
    “Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.

    I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’

    And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”

    -Eduardo Galeano

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    There is no reason why we couldn't get Zambrano. The narrative that only Arena and Sigi are elite and nobody else is worth chasing is false.
    That may have more to do with Zambrano and some of the player-related shenanigans that used to go on in the league; one KC fan online told me he'd clearly been frozen out by the league for his role in bringing in players. But then, you'd expect if that was the case he'd know himself and not make a public deal of getting another MLS gig, which he did in august. So who knows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yohan View Post
    MLS will always be an alien creature with a single entity and byzantine rules
    I foresee more finesse teams with addition of Orlando and NY, which should improve overall league level, and we need invest in the right places, not in a couple of primadonnas, but in the football culture.
    Vanney, as much as I like him, is a one of a dollar a dozen ex-players with no experience. I could see Danny Dichio or Jimmy B ( he has 1 win as a coach in MLS ) easily instead of him.
    We should look on what is common between MLS and world football, and not on how we are different.

  22. #82
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    does this guy know exactly what's going on in his team?
    “Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.

    I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’

    And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”

    -Eduardo Galeano

  23. #83
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    Old timer did you not see the article I posted. Mls soccer.com did an article with oz in august. He wants to come back to mls. He Is totally available to tfc. How many times are people gonna quote the "not reinvent the wheel speech" you can listen to the audio but you don't have to drink the Kool aid. They want us to think van ney is the guy because frankly they don't want to spend more money and look more irresponsible.

  24. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yohan View Post


    does this guy know exactly what's going on in his team?
    Yes.

  25. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Find me a foreign coach who has done truly well in MLS without having played/coached in North America before. No? Well that's your answer.
    Gary Smith won MLS Cup in 2010

  26. #86
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    never mind...

  27. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by prizby View Post
    Gary Smith won MLS Cup in 2010
    Odd that they got rid of him the following year... but maybe he's the one exception.

    However, all those complaining about Vanney's supposed lack of experience would never have hired him because he was like Nelsen, an ex-player with ZERO coaching experience before coaching Colorado.

  28. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Odd that they got rid of him the following year... but maybe he's the one exception.

    However, all those complaining about Vanney's supposed lack of experience would never have hired him because he was like Nelsen, an ex-player with ZERO coaching experience before coaching Colorado.
    Gary Smith is an oddball hire, because he never really expected to end up in Colorado, just circumstance of events ended up with him becoming the manager when Clavijo got fired. He was suppose to be working for Arsenal as a scout at the time.

    And his contract didn't get renewed because Rapids FO suck balls and are full of morons. Smith wasn't brilliant, but he kept Rapids as a mid table team, and won an MLS Cup. But that was only achieved after Smith was in charge for 3 seasons.

    Smith went on to manage Stevenage in League One, but got sacked and haven't had a job since 2013. Played some simple English style football. Most of you don't want him as manager lol.
    “Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.

    I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’

    And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”

    -Eduardo Galeano

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    This is as dumb a myth as there is..foriegn coaches can't do well in MLS. There are very few coaches or people for that matter who understand the crazy mls drafts. A good coach who understands football is the priority..hiring a nerd like Bez to understand the cap and draft issues is secondary. Tactics...motivation...chemistry...some leadership to attract the best players. I think it would be the bestmoney TFc spent to put down a Million a year for a world class coach.

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    "Find me a foreign coach who has done truly well in MLS without having played/coached in North America before. No? Well that's your answer."

    "Gary Smith won MLS Cup in 2010"

    "They fired him the next year, dosent count"......ok

 

 

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