I'd take Carver back in terms of what he can offer but the things that made him nuts before are even worse in the league now (batty refs, interfering league office, etc). It's certainly possible with eyes wide open he might be able to deal with it now but it's a risk. If he seriously put himself forward for coming back, I'd ask him a hundred times, "can you deal with MLS bs?"Originally Posted by MightyDM
Totally agree. I think Nelsen's firing was a huge mistake Bez should pay for, but I won't disagree with anyone who says the team was under-performing under him. A good coach would have gotten much more out of the team in the last ten games. Somehow Vanney instead managed to bring us to new depths of under-performing.
But you know how it works around this team. When the facts don't fit the original narrative, you change the narrative. So now it's not an under-performing team. Now it's a team that was never that good to begin with. (Which kinda makes you wonder how Nelsen got so much out of a bad bunch of players early on, but that's a whole other narrative).
and no one should either in my humble opinion......Carver had arguably the most talented TFC roster, prior to this year, and couldn't get the job done just the same......in addition to his complaining (refs, or who can forget his famous quote, "Get me my DP or I'm going home."), and he ultimately did take his ball and go home......good guy apparently to some.......but not a very good coach for us......
Agreed. That's my perspective, as well (I don't think I'd give a chance to Vermes, though).
If you don't get one of those guys, stick with Vanney. Anything else reeks of desperation, which is never the way to make a good decision.
Don't forget that Vancouver tried to get a major guy but failed. Just having $$$ isn't enough (and Vancouver had enough $$$ to hire one of these guys, plus a nicer climate than Toronto).
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
Billy Beane as an MLS manager?
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/201...and?CMP=twt_gu
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
That run of games over the summer was killer due to injuries and the sheer number of games. We all complained about the schedule at the time and I argued with journalists covering the team that the games in hand wouldn't amount to much due to it. I'm no huge admirer of Nelsen but you should only change it if you can upgrade and a youth coach isn't a proven upgrade right now. (Vanney may well go on to be a good coach but this is not the environment for us to sit with two inexperienced guys that have been part of yet another front office shitshow and hope that they eventually figure it out because their showings to date have been poor)
Throw the money and full autonomy at Lagerway and see what happens, he'd probably have to bring in a rookie coach but if it's people he's seen for years on the RSL staff we'd at least have a cohesive unit and some experience guiding us for once.
P.S. I'm shocked that Payne's name hasn't been tossed around seeing as Leiweke is leaving
Payne is working for USSF and NCAA
One might think Lagerway would be the answer, but he's actually just a capologist and contract person. His training is as a lawyer. Kreis was promoted to coach by the owner/operator of the club, not by Lagerway. Kreis selected the players for Lagerway to obtain. Lagerway actually knows much less about players and coaches than Bez.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
He brought through Kreis' assistant who'd been there for years and was able to keep the ship sailing on quite well. If he can get someone he knows and has worked with that was there for a while, I'd be more comfortable with that than what we currently have (although having a similar guy who had been here for years would be better but we keep churning through those too so why not do it one more time so everyone is on the same page?)
Really? Where did you see this, ive been reading up on him lately and haven't seen any of this.
Regardless, Largerway got his law degree after finishing his MLS playing career so he isn't just a lawyer. Also he is rumored to want a president position if you go by what RSL fans say.
It wouldn't keep what you two had written, likely because it was too long, but this is in reply to MightyDM and Ultra & Proud.
Nine game windows.
Nelsen
T 1-1 (H)
T 2-2 (A)
L 2-1 (H)
L 3-0 (A)
W 2-0 (A)
W 3-2 (A)
L 4-1 (A)
T 2-2 (H)
L 3-0 (H)
OVERALL: 2-4-3 (9 PTS)
HOME: 0-2-2 (2 PTS)
AWAY: 2-2-1 (7 PTS)
PPG = 1
12GF
19GA
Vanney
L 1-0 (A)
L 2-0 (H)
T 1-1 (A)
W 3-0 (H)
W 3-2 (H)
L 3-0 (A)
L 1-0 (H)
L 3-1 (A)
T 1-1 (H)
OVERALL: 2-5-2 (8 PTS)
HOME: 2-2-1 (7 PTS)
AWAY: 0-3-1 (1 PT)
PPG = 0.88
8GF
14GA
I've been a TFC fan for as long as they've been around, I know what the collapse looks like and the team was headed for a collapse. Regardless of which coach you look at it wasn't good enough. Excuse my hyperbole, but my point was that we were in an extended rut, which is true. If you're asking whether Nelsen should have been fired in the first place at that point in the season despite our current run of form, I don't think so. Does that inherently mean everything that resulted afterwards was Vanney's fault? No. Beyond the semantics of how badly we were doing before Nelsen was fired and the discussion of what could have been, I was (and am) aiming my thoughts more at how to judge Vanney.
How well can we judge a coach that took over a team that had their star striker unhappy and not playing, second star striker injured soonafter, captain injured around the same time, and having no say on the roster assembled. I mean, I haven't even gotten into how hard it is to change an entire team's tactical mindset midseason, from playing hoofball to a more progressive, modern game. Van Gaal is playing with some of the most intelligent footballers in the world (yes I know his tactics are more difficult) and it's taking him time, with a training camp to boot. Should Van Gaal be given all the blame for United's early season inconsistency - I'd say definitely not.
For all these reasons I place limited value on the third of the season Vanney has been here. The results haven't improved no, but they haven't been worse either which suggests to me that he's had very little effect.
Ultimately I'm left with the same point I made initially. Is Vanney good enough (results this season aside) to be the manager at TFC next year? Basically, if you were unaware Nelsen was fired and heard Vanney was hired, would you be happy with the hiring?
Based on his credentials, I don't think he's all that bad unless we're prying a big name within MLS or trying to get an established, successful manager outside of MLS (i.e. Bob Bradley). Unless we get a high profile manager, I'm okay with Vanney as the fallback.
Last edited by Kingvikingstad; 10-23-2014 at 01:08 PM.
After 8 years of shit and all the off the field stuff we get subjected to, I expect a f*ck of a lot more than settling on a fall back at the most important off field position the team has.
Ur not going to get it.
I hear you. I would love to have one of Bradley, Schmid or Arena.
Its not going to happen this season.
It might in 2015.
so do I. I know exactly what you're saying and I agree, I'm just trying to be realistic as well. I'm not going to get my hopes up anymore.
You don't say? He hired as a head coach someone who had no head coaching experience, just experience as an assistant, and it turned out well? In other words, he hired someone like Vanney, someone who some people think is totally unsuitable.
So tell me again why you want to replace Bez.
Relevant to the discussion is what the Dynamo is looking for in a coach:
In other words, they will promote a current assistant, or get a coach from the outside with experience. This is what winning teams do.The coach presumably must have head coaching experience, but Canetti will interview current Dynamo assistants Wade Barrett, Steve Ralston and Tim Hanley next week if they seek the job. All three assistants declined to comment through a Dynamo public relations assistant this week.
http://www.chron.com/sports/dynamo/a...ch-5838566.php
Last edited by Oldtimer; 10-23-2014 at 01:28 PM.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
Again, if we had a guy who had been here for years, knew the setup, knew the players, the politics etc. was well liked and respected then I would be all about hiring him. Greg Vanney doesn't fit that bill and, again, he may turn out to be a good coach but this is not the club to be cutting your teeth at right now. If we had a few years of relative calm, some moderate success etc. then okay BUT you can't say any of that so I do not want him or bezbatchenko here. It's really that simple to me.
Good analysis. So only 1 point difference? That is not significant.
So Vanney is as good a fallback as any.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
^^ And to me, Wull, it's simple that getting rid of TB and/or Vanney will not produce that relative calm. Vanney has an endorsement from Bruce Arena, has been an Assistant Coach with Chivas, and has been in the organization for at least a couple of months before becoming coach so he is familiar with the lay of the land.
We all need to understand: There is no quick fix to what ails TFC. There is no coach/exec in shining armor that can save this franchise. The one thing this club has never tried is to leave things status quo for more than 18 months. That's what's got us into this mess in the first place. We may as well grin and bear it for the next two years and see if they've finally got it right by then. I understand that there might not be any fans left by that time, but I don't see what other choice we have that gets us off the hamster-wheel of futility other than to just STOP.
There is no calm to preserve. Calm went out the window with 10 games to go in the season. Getting rid of Vanney will have zero effect on team stability.
I'd hire Osieck as TFC's president. You can't go wrong with a man with great international credentials. As a coach, I'd get on the phone with Martin Rennie. TFC needs a man that has made the playoffs at least and knows the MLS Rules. At least with Martin Rennie, the TFC ship will steer in a good direction, and after 2 years of him, than you can get a big name coach to guide TFC to the MLS championships. Or how about Wilmer Cabrera in Chivas USA. He has done a decent job with the shitty side he was put in charge of. He has played in the Colombian National team, knows Central and South America pretty well and if MLSE gave him an open book check, would probably do wonders at TFC. I think we should realize that our objective next year is just making the playoffs, after Year 2 and 3, than we can talk about winning the MLS championship. Might as well start correcting the TFC ship properly.
Edit: I'd also relegated Bez to just a bean counter now. The man isn't experienced enough to evaluate talent and players. He's more of a numbers guy.
Last edited by NolbertoS; 10-23-2014 at 02:29 PM.
This is it. When he was hired he should have been straight up called interim. You don't fire a manager with a team in the playoffs with 10 matches left and permanently replace him with an unknown at this level. It is ridiculous. We all know Nelsen was failing so an interim manager would be fine and then offer the obligatory end of season review before deciding a new manager. Naming him the permanent manager, with him never managing a match yet, was very foolish. We'd may as well start just signing lower level players without trials.
I'll grin and bear it if they get me someone that has shown even a modicum of success in that position. It's far easier to sell me on patience when someone has prior outcomes to point to rather than the latest "what if he ends up okay?" rookie
Actually, apart from the flare up today over Henry, which largely is media/supporter driven, the players have indicated things are calm compared to what they were.
People need to seperate supporter angst from within the clubhouse feelings.
Last edited by OgtheDim; 10-23-2014 at 02:35 PM.
MLSE won't touch him. His comments about women make him unhirable in North America.
Last edited by OgtheDim; 10-23-2014 at 02:45 PM.
If the status quo was good or had an obvious upside then sure. No one can show me any evidence that Vanney will succeed based on what we've seen already. If we had an experienced manager who succeeded elsewhere then sure, growing pains are acceptable. With a nobody like Vanney, one good bout of growing pains will equal manager #10 and another roster overhaul in the course of a season. Then we can have manager #10 saying, "How come we don't have a player like that (Gilberto post trade)?" and we can tell him that we traded him for allocation and draft pick.
That's the unbreachable divide here.
People who believe Vanney isn't good enough to justify the stability
vs.
People who believe Vanney isn't bad enough to justify the instability.
Bez seems to have made his choice. It remains to be seen if MLSE decides otherwise. But, the chances of Vanney staying here into next season would be quite high.
I wouldn't worry about the players. A month of dating doesn't a marriage make.
So, what do you mean by team stability?
We should re-word Lieweke's early quote: Why can't we be not bad enough?
The double negative makes it.
Re: Osieck
Bring him in !
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