Coach/GM Shopping

[jloome]

People who have never succeeded can't hold on in this environment when things go poorly.

I think you're confusing them "not surviving" with them being fired by MLSE.

I'd also note that none of those people have been recently MLS players or staff. That model is working at EVERY OTHER TEAM doing well. The only two exceptions, LA and Seattle, have lifelong MLS winning coaches at their helm.

There has never been a case in this league where going outside proved to be the smart move. Hudson, Zambrano, Yallop -- every one of these guys had U.S. Soccer ties from their playing days.

In fact, the only guy without a U.S. soccer background to win the cup is Gary Smith... and he was a scout for Arsenal who was brought in, like Vanney, to setup Colorado's youth program.

For once, let's do what everyone else does. Let's not try to get someone "better" from a higher league. It has never worked before, it has led to disastrous turnover after disastrous turnover. Enough. A little Einstein logic, please. Let's stop repeating what doesn't work.

[Ultra & Proud]

No offense bud but i'm not sure what you are trying to say here, you're sick of the turnover so want Vanney out? (More turnover)

I am sick of our cycle of hiring inexperienced managers who are really no more than interim managers, just waiting to be dumped. That's the thing here. It's too easy. Most are really lame ducks before they even start. Problem is that they will turnover the squad and then hold fast for 18 months tops and then we do it again. Never have we used our resources ($$$) to hire a big time manager and giver him full control of personel, tactics, everything. Winter was close but he had Mariner and that wasn't a good working relationship. He was also inexperienced.

The thing is; are we so naive that we actually figure that by consistently hiring these types of managers that we will be bound to land the next Kreis? Or do they see it to be easier to hire this type of manager because they are nobodies and can be dumped at a moments notice and no one will care because the carrot of hope will be dangled yet again and the vast majority will go right for that carrot? Nowadays I am not sure.

Bottom line for me; I don't want Vanney, an interim without the tag manager turning over the squad to fit his tactics and beliefs when he is most likely on the chopping block next summer, barring us coming out strong and not riding the 'gelling' excuse for too long. We have never tried a successful experienced manager yet. Get one and give him a good chunk of Defoe's salary along with meddling free control of the squad. Then ride that out. I would have more faith in that because crap shooting on the inexperienced is what has lead us to being the farm team for the rest of the leagues better sides.

[ag futbol]

Just to add on to my last post. People have brought up the other inexperienced coaches in this league, well look where they've started: places where soccer is not as centre stage as it is here.

Which franchises are closest to TFC in this league? Seattle, LA, RBNY, NYFC (next year), maybe Portland. The rest are smaller markets or places where soccer is far less relevant. None of these teams, except RBNY, hired or have hired inexperienced people.

That should be the benchmark, if we are obsessed with using one. Not a place like NE or CLB where nobody is paying attention and the cost of failure is lower.

[ag futbol]

I think you're confusing them "not surviving" with them being fired by MLSE.

I'd also note that none of those people have been recently MLS players or staff. That model is working at EVERY OTHER TEAM doing well. The only two exceptions, LA and Seattle, have lifelong MLS winning coaches at their helm.

There has never been a case in this league where going outside proved to be the smart move. Hudson, Zambrano, Yallop -- every one of these guys had U.S. Soccer ties from their playing days.

In fact, the only guy without a U.S. soccer background to win the cup is Gary Smith... and he was a scout for Arsenal who was brought in, like Vanney, to setup Colorado's youth program.

For once, let's do what everyone else does. Let's not try to get someone "better" from a higher league. It has never worked before, it has led to disastrous turnover after disastrous turnover. Enough. A little Einstein logic, please. Let's stop repeating what doesn't work.

With the exception of Nelson, where it's arguable, the others were on a road to nowhere and the organization simply did the obvious. Bad plans that had to be undone. Some of them quit on their own or let it be known TFC could shove the job up their ass rather than take an extension. Who would you have liked to have kept longer? What would it have accomplished?

[Ultra & Proud]

Just to add on to my last post. People have brought up the other inexperienced coaches in this league, well look where they've started: places where soccer is not as centre stage as it is here.

Which franchises are closest to TFC in this league? Seattle, LA, RBNY, NYFC (next year), maybe Portland. The rest are smaller markets or places where soccer is far less relevant. None of these teams, except RBNY, hired or have hired inexperienced people.

That should be the benchmark, if we are obsessed with using one. Not a place like NE or CLB where nobody is paying attention and the cost of failure is lower.

Add to that the fact that no team in the history of this league has had a run of consistent failure like us.

I don't want to take a big risk anymore. All new hirings are of course a risk and internationals are spotty at best but I want us to minimize that risk based on a legit track record. Not a Winter selling a foreign idea one or another selling grit and being hard to break down because he was a defender one either. How about get someone who has done something for a professional side both tactically and by building a squad that has had some success in a league preferably with some financial restraints? You know, some proof that they know what they are doing before giving them the job like most other jobs. Not just talk and words. If this was year 4 then sure. We can wait and build and we did that. And then tore it down and repeated continually. With the state of the squad and the mental state of the fans who are attached to this team I think it's time to do what has a better, tangible shot to succeed and not just keep rolling the dice year after year.

This is the time to do it and get it right enough that we don't regress next season and build from there. With Vanney honestly how many of you would be willing to bet on that?

[Areathrasher]

Fair enough. I'm in Jloome's do it the MLS way camp.

[dutch]

I'm in for giving the 2nd highest winning mls coach in history and highest goals in a season record holder for both galaxy and NY
Another kick at the ball. He wants mls back and we owe it to our selves to give it to him. He is the most successfull mls coach we would have ever had. Vanney had his chance, he got 10 games, he dosent justify another 30. Zambrano has never gone 2 wins in 9 games in his whole career...
I just don't get it

[Ultra & Proud]

Fair enough. I'm in Jloome's do it the MLS way camp.

I was too but I think we've burned that bridge too many times now. I think they need to hire a manager that will be more difficult to just dump on a whim that what we've had in the past.

[Canary10]

Toronto is not a place where a green coach can come in and grow and learn with the team. That might work in smaller markets, but not here. Pay the money and get an undisputed top flight coach.

[Areathrasher]

I was too but I think we've burned that bridge too many times now. I think they need to hire a manager that will be more difficult to just dump on a whim that what we've had in the past.

Well I don't think a bridge can be burned if they haven't built one in the first place I.E they never did the MLS way properly.

And getting a top-flight coach will be no easy feat. You're only going to get someone that's washed out somewhere else or is on a downward trajectory/close to retirement.

[Canary10]

Well I don't think a bridge can be burned if they haven't built one in the first place I.E they never did the MLS way properly.

And getting a top-flight coach will be no easy feat. You're only going to get someone that's washed out somewhere else or is on a downward trajectory/close to retirement.

Won't be easy, but we'll spend money on anything!!

[Ultra & Proud]

Well I don't think a bridge can be burned if they haven't built one in the first place I.E they never did the MLS way properly.

And getting a top-flight coach will be no easy feat. You're only going to get someone that's washed out somewhere else or is on a downward trajectory/close to retirement.

Maybe but with the way the upper management usually is, do you think someone like Vanney will be around long enough to properly grow as manager? And if the growth rate is slow and full of what we have seen these past 10 matches, will there even be a half full BMO after expansion? Also, since our squad is proven to be mentally weak, do you think a guy like Vanney can command the respect of the players much less that of top flight DP level talent?

[Ultra & Proud]

Won't be easy, but we'll spend money on anything!!

It'd be hard as they are doing well but GBS is doing a good job managing Lanus in Argentina. Someone like that who now has a few years of managerial experience and knows MLS would be a good fit.

[Oldtimer]

Just to add on to my last post. People have brought up the other inexperienced coaches in this league, well look where they've started: places where soccer is not as centre stage as it is here.

Which franchises are closest to TFC in this league? Seattle, LA, RBNY, NYFC (next year), maybe Portland. The rest are smaller markets or places where soccer is far less relevant. None of these teams, except RBNY, hired or have hired inexperienced people.

That should be the benchmark, if we are obsessed with using one. Not a place like NE or CLB where nobody is paying attention and the cost of failure is lower.

Preki was experienced. He was even coach of the year one year.

I'm in for giving the 2nd highest winning mls coach in history and highest goals in a season record holder for both galaxy and NY
Another kick at the ball. He wants mls back and we owe it to our selves to give it to him. He is the most successfull mls coach we would have ever had. Vanney had his chance, he got 10 games, he dosent justify another 30. Zambrano has never gone 2 wins in 9 games in his whole career...
I just don't get it

I know you started this thread to advocate for your guy. It doesn't seem anyone is biting, but football is a matter of opinions, isn't it?

I'm for keeping Vanney over any MLS 1.0 guy, no matter how great. MLS at that time was equivalent to USL Pro today.

I'll keep Vanney over almost any foreign coach.

If you give me Bruce or Sigi, I'll dump Vanney in an instant. This BTW, is Molinaro's opinion too: keep Vanney unless you can get one of the great 2-3 MLS managers.

[Ultra & Proud]

I'm for keeping Vanney over any MLS 1.0 guy, no matter how great. MLS at that time was equivalent to USL Pro today.

I agree. No MLS 1.0 managers either. And no CMNT peripheral coaches or ex-players thank you. We have enough history filled with failure without adding some more on the pile.

[Areathrasher]

Maybe but with the way the upper management usually is, do you think someone like Vanney will be around long enough to properly grow as manager? And if the growth rate is slow and full of what we have seen these past 10 matches, will there even be a half full BMO after expansion? Also, since our squad is proven to be mentally weak, do you think a guy like Vanney can command the respect of the players much less that of top flight DP level talent?

If you listen to the latest TSNFC podcast, DeVos says that Vanney is well liked and respected by all the players that he has talked to. He also stresses that he talked to some that aren't in the team at the moment.

His first 10 games weren't great by any means but its a small sample with extenuating circumstances. I want to see how this side looks after a preseason with him.

Also, I mentioned this before, but a season with a potential lockout and 2 month road trip to start the season isn't the best time to bring a new guy in. Esp a forgien one.

[ag futbol]

Preki was experienced. He was even coach of the year one year.
.

He also had Mo above him, something that would prevent practically anyone from being effective. But point taken, experience / success taken in isolation without critically thinking about whether it can be repeated doesn't mean much. Nobody wants to hire Osorio and he took a team to a MLS cup final. Everyone knew it was a fluke.

I just think letting someone learn on the job under the guise of "this is the best chance we've got" is not the thing to do. We can poach someone else's formerly inexperienced coach, who now has experience. We can look elsewhere asides from strictly MLS (NCAA, USL, whatever). We can think hard about what qualities would allow an experienced foreigner succeed here.

I disagree the idea some Green MLS insider makes up for all his shortcomings by being familiar with the league. I will take someone who tried and failed, like say Jesse Marsh, over someone who is supposed to get it right from the get go.

Hiring inexperienced people like Vanney is as risky of a proposition as you can get.

[starter]

When Moe's job was on the line, he chose to bring in Preki to save his gig, not a rookie coach.
When money are on the line, people tend to make more sensible decisions.
Preki was not the worst that had happened to this club. Not saying we need Preki, but all in favor of experience.
Afraid that Bez is not mature enough to see it this way.

[Richard]

Should rename the thread to President/GM/Coach Shopping.

Seriously what has Bez done in his career to deserve the power he now has as GM? Okay. He is a top notch lawyer who can decipher the mysterious MLS rules, but what talent evaluation skills does he have? What has he legitimately done in that past that can suggest he knows how to acquire players through connections, and identify talent. I have les confidence in him than Vanney although not by much.

I think with TL on the way out it would be wise to get a real football president(with no GM tag) and actually keep him around unlike Payne.

[molenshtain]

Should rename the thread to President/GM/Coach Shopping.

Seriously what has Bez done in his career to deserve the power he now has as GM? Okay. He is a top notch lawyer who can decipher the mysterious MLS rules, but what talent evaluation skills does he have? What has he legitimately done in that past that can suggest he knows how to acquire players through connections, and identify talent. I have les confidence in him than Vanney although not by much.

I think with TL on the way out it would be wise to get a real football president(with no GM tag) and actually keep him around unlike Payne.

He had a very good draft and has arguably won all four trades he's been apart of?

[prizby]

Odd that they got rid of him the following year... but maybe he's the one exception.

However, all those complaining about Vanney's supposed lack of experience would never have hired him because he was like Nelsen, an ex-player with ZERO coaching experience before coaching Colorado.

if i remember correctly front office and smith didn't see eye-to-eye in terms of how to build the roster

i'm in the experienced coach or bust camp right now, unless someone can really convince me otherwise

[MightyDM]

No-one has mentioned John Carver.

[PopePouri]

No-one has mentioned John Carver.

As a success?

[ag futbol]

He had a very good draft and has arguably won all four trades he's been apart of?

That's a wash at this point because we have no idea what part of that is Nelsen and what part of it is Bez. Media has spun it both ways. Someone reported he was against all the trades but he was overruled by Leiweke who backed Nelsen.

But at face value, given the philosophy he's parroting with Vanney I doubt moves like Oduro, Warner, etc... Were on his agenda. Those are not the guys you get to play the style of football they talk about or have been trying to play at the end of the season.

[molenshtain]

That's a wash at this point because we have no idea what part of that is Nelsen and what part of it is Bez. Media has spun it both ways. Someone reported he was against all the trades but he was overruled by Leiweke who backed Nelsen.

But at face value, given the philosophy he's parroting with Vanney I doubt moves like Oduro, Warner, etc... Were on his agenda. Those are not the guys you get to play the style of football they talk about or have been trying to play at the end of the season.

The only guy who reported the trades were Nelsen's idea is a an awful sports journalist, routinely get's things wrong and from one source. Most assume it was Nelsen who fed him that story.

And regardless of how these players will fit in under Vanney's plans, Bez has shown a knack for acquiring domestic talent. We got deeper in four spots by trading very little away. I personally think He'll have another really good off-season with all the cap-space and draft picks we have.

[Oldtimer]

Hiring inexperienced people like Vanney is as risky of a proposition as you can get.

Again, he's not inexperienced, he was an assistant at Chivas. It's like having the VP of a company become the Prez, it's not that big of a leap.

[bones]

Again, he's not inexperienced, he was an assistant at Chivas. It's like having the VP of a company become the Prez, it's not that big of a leap.

So VP of Nortel becoming Prez of Blackberry then?

[Canary10]

To me there are only really 4-6 guys that have had enough experience and success in this league that they would command immediate undisputed authority and respect (the MLS Mourinho if you will): Sigi, Bruce Arena, Bob Bradley, and probably Dom Kinnear (who has already been poached) and probably Jason Kreis (who is obviously going nowhere). At a stretch, maybe Peter Vermes too. Outside of that, pretty much any other coach will have some downside. If it's not one of those, I don't think it's worth the conversation.

[Wull]

Is everyone forgetting that Vanney was brought in because the squad was supposedly better than they were showing? He was going to get more out of them, they were better than their form suggested etc.

I have seen nothing from Bezbatchenko to suggest that his decision-making is worth hanging my hat on, Vanney included.

[ag futbol]

Again, he's not inexperienced, he was an assistant at Chivas. It's like having the VP of a company become the Prez, it's not that big of a leap.

One year as an assistant at the worst outfit in the league followed by working in an academy does not make you experienced.