Vanney = MLS 2.0

[Kayaker]

I've been looking at the list of coaches in MLS since 2007. I think we need to start setting realistic expectations about what can work in MLS and how long it will take. I'm glad we gave Nelson as long as he had, and I'm still neutral as to getting rid of him was the right thing to do or not. I've got a slightly good feeling about Vanney as his tactics seem to be better (and should improve with experience).

First off, there are only 3 big league MLS coaches/managers: Arean, Schmid, and Bradley. I can't see the first two leaving their positions and the latter will try to stay in Europe.

Here's what I've gathered about MLS coaches since 2007. I looked at any coach in place for the 07 season and any non-interim hire.

- total coaches: 57
- team with the most? Don't guess, it's us: 7 (remember non-interim), next is Chivas with 6.
- only teams with 1? Houston (until today of course) and Seattle (only around since 09)
- coaches hired with no head coaching experience at a professional level - 11 (two of those are different - Hyndman and Porter were established college coaches, but still had no professional experience when hired)
- coaches hired with assistant coaching experience - 18
- coaches with no MLS coaching experience - 12
- coaches with MLS experience - 16

Of the current coaches (let's pretend that Watson in SJ still has a job) only 4 have *not* played in MLS: Cabrera, Arena, Porter (he had a couple of games, but nothing of consequence), Schmid.

So, the pool of coaching talent is fairly small. The options are:
- convince Bob Bradley to come.... not going to happen
- convince a sitting coach to come to Toronto (I can't see it happening)
- pick up one of the coaches about to be fired at the end of season
- hire one of the few experienced MLS coaches with out an MLS coaching job (Preki, Nicol, Marsch, Rennie, Nowak, Hackworth, Carver, Mariner, Spencer)
- hire the most promising assistant MLS coach out there
- stick with Vanney

Of the current coaches that had experience at any professional level prior to their current job there are the ones that are not leaving (Berhalter, Kinnear, Pareja, Arena, Schmid) and the ones I don't think we want (Yallop, Klopas). Of the rest, unless you can pry Vermes or Robinson away from their clubs (not going to happen), you would have to look at the possible firings (from most likely to least likely: Watson, Petke, Curtin, Porter)

This off season is going to be extra busy, therefore I'm ok with Vanney. Next year may be very turbulent, new roster rules with the CBA, expansion (both the draft and how it plays throughout the season), conference re-alignment, not playing a home game until May.

[jloome]

I've been looking at the list of coaches in MLS since 2007. I think we need to start setting realistic expectations about what can work in MLS and how long it will take. I'm glad we gave Nelson as long as he had, and I'm still neutral as to getting rid of him was the right thing to do or not. I've got a slightly good feeling about Vanney as his tactics seem to be better (and should improve with experience).

First off, there are only 3 big league MLS coaches/managers: Arean, Schmid, and Bradley. I can't see the first two leaving their positions and the latter will try to stay in Europe.

Here's what I've gathered about MLS coaches since 2007. I looked at any coach in place for the 07 season and any non-interim hire.

- total coaches: 57
- team with the most? Don't guess, it's us: 7 (remember non-interim), next is Chivas with 6.
- only teams with 1? Houston (until today of course) and Seattle (only around since 09)
- coaches hired with no head coaching experience at a professional level - 11 (two of those are different - Hyndman and Porter were established college coaches, but still had no professional experience when hired)
- coaches hired with assistant coaching experience - 18
- coaches with no MLS coaching experience - 12
- coaches with MLS experience - 16

Of the current coaches (let's pretend that Watson in SJ still has a job) only 4 have *not* played in MLS: Cabrera, Arena, Porter (he had a couple of games, but nothing of consequence), Schmid.

So, the pool of coaching talent is fairly small. The options are:
- convince Bob Bradley to come.... not going to happen
- convince a sitting coach to come to Toronto (I can't see it happening)
- pick up one of the coaches about to be fired at the end of season
- hire one of the few experienced MLS coaches with out an MLS coaching job (Preki, Nicol, Marsch, Rennie, Nowak, Hackworth, Carver, Mariner, Spencer)
- hire the most promising assistant MLS coach out there
- stick with Vanney

Of the current coaches that had experience at any professional level prior to their current job there are the ones that are not leaving (Berhalter, Kinnear, Pareja, Arena, Schmid) and the ones I don't think we want (Yallop, Klopas). Of the rest, unless you can pry Vermes or Robinson away from their clubs (not going to happen), you would have to look at the possible firings (from most likely to least likely: Watson, Petke, Curtin, Porter)

This off season is going to be extra busy, therefore I'm ok with Vanney. Next year may be very turbulent, new roster rules with the CBA, expansion (both the draft and how it plays throughout the season), conference re-alignment, not playing a home game until May.

Insightful. Combine it with some of the challenges that come from assembling a roster in North America and I think it's the wisest decision right now.

[evermorian]

While there has been debate about why TFC has been such an incompetent organization year after year, whether it be from the coaches we hire or the continual dysfunctional front office (except for maybe this year?), there has been little emphasis on our academy and how it has not produced much quality except for hamilton and Henry. I see set ups like LA and Real Salt Lake, and more recently Seattle, who are starting to produce future mls stars. Considering that Toronto has such a vast area to get players from, how is it that our academy is (seemingly) so far behind the others? And if we were producing MLS talent from our academy then maybe we wouldn't be such a bad team? Thoughts?

[MightyDM]

jloome is totally right of course. For most teams.

But us, we're special, as always, the rules don't apply.

Nelsen is no idiot, he would never have done what he did without very significant support. I can't help but think that we have a factionalized room, and that Vanney cannot win over at least half the room.

what are the fault lines?

[MightyDM]

Vanney reeks of charisma and authority of a kindergarten teacher. At least Nelsen could control the locker room with force of his personality (and resume) but Vanney? He talks good tactician, but sounds like a youth team coach which he really should get more experience doing.

Good post

[MightyDM]

Maybe offer Landon the job.

No. And No. That's when I cancel my tickets. And move to Vancouver.

[MightyDM]

Just finished listening to Vanney's latest interview on the TFC website. It may be all just his sales pitch to keep his job but damn he does sell himself well and I can't help but think we should give him a chance.

Says all the right things. Then his team goes on the pitch and gives up the weakest goals in TFC history, again and again and again. And again. Sorry, decent guy, sounds good, but the evidence on the pitch is lose lose lose.

[ryan]

Maybe offer Landon the job.

Oh lawd no. Why even? Just. STAHP.

[Red CB Toronto]

Oh lawd no. Why even? Just. STAHP.

Pure joke, knowing the Reds, have no idea what direction they go if a change is made.

[PopePouri]

Based on the last couple of posts and threads on this forum, thanks jloome for creating a thread that didn't make me want to kill myself.

We need an attacking mid DP. If we persist with the diamond, it's a necessity.

[Brooker]

Tony Pulis would whip us into shape. We may never win anything but we'd make the playoffs every year.

[Initial B]

Considering that Toronto has such a vast area to get players from, how is it that our academy is (seemingly) so far behind the others? And if we were producing MLS talent from our academy then maybe we wouldn't be such a bad team? Thoughts?

From what I understand, when TFC first came along, the general arrogance and incompetence of the Front Office alienated all the existing clubs. I think Vanney helped mend some of the fences when he joined, but there's still a lot of the top talent that does not play in TFC's academy, especially those kids associated with SAAC academies, where some have affiliations with European clubs and send their best kids there. At least TFC has been around long enough that some kids will have started with the TFC system right from the get-go. I think we'll start to see an up-tick in the quality of the academy kids in the next couple of years.

[jloome]

Says all the right things. Then his team goes on the pitch and gives up the weakest goals in TFC history, again and again and again. And again. Sorry, decent guy, sounds good, but the evidence on the pitch is lose lose lose.

Given that they won two games under him, that's hyperbole. He was stuck with a team that was poorly coached and forced to changed tactics with ten games left in the season.

Nelsen's team was shambolic for the second half of this season.

[molenshtain]

From what I understand, when TFC first came along, the general arrogance and incompetence of the Front Office alienated all the existing clubs. I think Vanney helped mend some of the fences when he joined, but there's still a lot of the top talent that does not play in TFC's academy, especially those kids associated with SAAC academies, where some have affiliations with European clubs and send their best kids there. At least TFC has been around long enough that some kids will have started with the TFC system right from the get-go. I think we'll start to see an up-tick in the quality of the academy kids in the next couple of years.

That's basically it. It's starting to change more and more though, their doing a much better job of engaging the city's best clubs and changing the minds of the most talented players to start their careers here rather than Europe. The U18 team now is much more representative of the city's finest that it was even 2-3 years ago.

[Lumpy]

Vanney needed to be fired the day he was hired as I stated way back then. He has no experience and we shouldn't be made to wait until he does. His results to date have been poor. He lost both games against Philadelphia which effectively knocked us out of the playoffs. He coached us to one of our most embarrassing and humbling loses against New York. We have gotten worse results under him than the previous manager who was fired for lack of results. Let him gain valuable experience somewhere else so we don't have to suffer though his learning curve. Fire Vanney NOW.

[Oldtimer]

He has no experience

He has experience at the academy level, which is a lot more than Nelsen had.

Bruce Arena had no first team experience either when he started in MLS. His experience was NCAA.

[Lumpy]

He has experience at the academy level, which is a lot more than Nelsen had.

Bruce Arena had no first team experience either when he started in MLS. His experience was NCAA.

Arena coached 385 NCAA games. How many games has Vanney coached other than his coaching of kids? The answer is closer to zero than it is 385.

[Canary10]

Vanney reeks of charisma and authority of a kindergarten teacher. At least Nelsen could control the locker room with force of his personality (and resume) but Vanney? He talks good tactician, but sounds like a youth team coach which he really should get more experience doing.

I think this is right. Watching him on the sideline during games, and in interviews, he really seems to be a shrinking violet.

[Areathrasher]

He was tearing the 4th official a new one after Hagglund was sent off on Sat.

[Canary10]

He was tearing the 4th official a new one after Hagglund was sent off on Sat.

First sign of life I've seen from him.

Honestly, in terms of intensity, TFC have looked like they were on their way to a baby shower each of the games he's coached. I don't think he can motivate.

[burlington Red]

He isn't a hairdryer treatment type of manager, that's for sure. He wouldn't be one for Braveheart type speeches geeing up his players. There is not neccessarily anything wrong with that, plenty of easy going managers these days, but at the point we were in at that part of the season, I believe a more forceful personality would have lifted the morale more. Often when a new manager comes into a club, particulary one that is struggling, the players automatically raise their games for a few at least anyway- we did the opposite- our 2 performances v Philly were woeful and there were points to be had there. Maybe him coming from within played into that.LA game he pretty much give up on before we even kicked off.
Tactics wise we have been poor, we beat a Chivas team my over 30 pub team would have beaten. We give Portland a 2 goal start at home then ended up beating them courtesy of set peices.
I do have sympathy in that the team needs refreshed, and we had the Defoe saga which didn't help. I personally wouldn't go with him. I am starting to divert my thought process away from must having someone with MLS experience, there just isn't the quality out there. I'd certainly be open to a foreign manager if the right one presented himself, doesn't have to be a sexy name, just someone who has worked within a tight budget, but whose teams play football, not the long ball crap we have seen under both managers this season

[Areathrasher]

First sign of life I've seen from him.

Honestly, in terms of intensity, TFC have looked like they were on their way to a baby shower each of the games he's coached. I don't think he can motivate.

It's not like the team didn't have completely lackluster performances under Nelsen either.

I'm completely on the fence about Vanney. I can't make up my mind if they should stick or get rid.

[Yohan]

It's not like the team didn't have completely lackluster performances under Nelsen either.

I'm completely on the fence about Vanney. I can't make up my mind if they should stick or get rid.

I've resigned to the fact that we're stuck with Vanney, unless the axe comes down from MLSE to clean house again.

[Canary10]

It's not like the team didn't have completely lackluster performances under Nelsen either.

I'm completely on the fence about Vanney. I can't make up my mind if they should stick or get rid.

Yeah for sure. But for the most part I think the team had some toughness and on the whole I think the players played for him, that game against New England notwithstanding.

Really, we need to answer the question why we went on such a huge second half of the season slide.

[Areathrasher]

I think overall the bigger question is, why was our home form so shit all year.

That's just me though

[Canary10]

I think overall the bigger question is, why was our home form so shit all year.

That's just me though

Yeah that's true too.

[OgtheDim]

I think overall the bigger question is, why was our home form so shit all year.

That's just me though

Time to get out the off season cliche bingo cards:




Under the O

"We have to make BMO a fortress again."

[trane]

I agree ( or I should say I do not disagree-I would prefer someone who has build a lossing team into a winning team) with the theory, I am just not sure that Vanney is the one. I have not seen enough to think that he is.

[Areathrasher]

I agree ( or I should say I do not disagree-I would prefer someone who has build a lossing team into a winning team) with the theory, I am just not sure that Vanney is the one. I have not seen enough to think that he is.

I don't think anyone can accurately say that either way- if he's show enough or not enough. Too small a sample size.

Jay Heaps led a team on a 9 game losing streak and the Revs still made the playoffs.
Ben Olsen and 3 wins last year and look at DC now.

Vanney hasn't show much right now but after some roster changes and a preseason, who's to say he wont? Or will it be more of the same?

I don't think there is enough evidence to say either way.

[TFC07]

I don't think anyone can accurately say that either way- if he's show enough or not enough. Too small a sample size.

Jay Heaps led a team on a 9 game losing streak and the Revs still made the playoffs.
Ben Olsen and 3 wins last year and look at DC now.

Vanney hasn't show much right now but after some roster changes and a preseason, who's to say he wont? Or will it be more of the same?

I don't think there is enough evidence to say either way.

But here's the thing: can TFC afford to take a risk (again) on rookie coach and management for that matter?

Enough with rookies, bring on experience coach and president/GM (doesn't matter if MLS experience or not) who have proven track record to manage this club. We need a guy like Floro (current Canadian manager) to run TFC not Bez and Vanney.

If we're going to spend millions on players, then can't we spend huge sum of money on management side (including coaching staff) too?

Let me ask you these questions?: do we have scouting system? Do we have right people running academy? Do we even have technical director?

This is why we need a soccer guy to be president of TFC and get the right people to run and manage this club.