Vanney = MLS 2.0

[jloome]

For all those clamoring to get someone experienced, I would point out that the most successful coaches in MLS outside of Schmidt and Arena are ALL former MLS players, and most are recently retired.

It's not just Kreis:
Petke in New York; Berhalter in Columbus; Carl Robinson in Vancouver; Jay Heaps in New England.

THese are just the ones that are winning; in fact, most of the coaches in the league are former MLS players. Kinnear, Porter, Watson, Klopas, Clavijo. The lot.

Of the ones we've had we've only had three with significant MLS playing experience: Mo (whose history should've been a big flare), Preki ( who might have done well eventually; he just won the USL title with Sacramento), and Nelsen who had no experience at all.

I realize it's a risk to go with Vanney; but I also realize that the constant cycle of trying new approaches leads to zero team cohesion in a league that, due to talent paucity, requires it.

Thoughts?

[ensco]

My thought is that we are all on the voyage of the damned, and we could hire Bill Shankly reincarnated and it wouldn't matter.

[adam1001]

For all those clamoring to get someone experienced, I would point out that the most successful coaches in MLS outside of Schmidt and Arena are ALL former MLS players, and most are recently retired.

It's not just Kreis:
Petke in New York; Berhalter in Columbus; Carl Robinson in Vancouver; Jay Heaps in New England.

THese are just the ones that are winning; in fact, most of the coaches in the league are former MLS players. Kinnear, Porter, Watson, Klopas, Clavijo. The lot.

Of the ones we've had we've only had three with significant MLS playing experience: Mo (whose history should've been a big flare), Preki ( who might have done well eventually; he just won the USL title with Sacramento), and Nelsen who had no experience at all.

I realize it's a risk to go with Vanney; but I also realize that the constant cycle of trying new approaches leads to zero team cohesion in a league that, due to talent paucity, requires it.

Thoughts?

I'm not sure that Vanney will succeed here. We went from having a coach with zero actual coaching experience, to another coach with zero actual coaching experience. With Bez somewhat guaranteeing Vanney the job for next year, I fear that next season will end much like this one did.

[Shakes McQueen]

My thought is that we are all on the voyage of the damned.

I don't know why, but this got a huge belly laugh from me.

I think it was jloome's analysis, followed by the hilariously worded brick wall of reality, haha.

[Shakes McQueen]

As for the actual subject - I'm not sold on Vanney going forward yet, but I'm also not... un-sold. We could probably do worse than to give him a chance going in to next season.

[Ultra & Proud]

As for the actual subject - I'm not sold on Vanney going forward yet, but I'm also not... un-sold. We could probably do worse than to give him a chance going in to next season.

I agree with the sold vs unsold thought but maybe the worse thing we could do is give him a chance. If he falters and gets sacked by June/July then we will be back at 2012 rock bottom levels in the locker room and in the stands. What we need now is no risk and to pay whatever it takes to get a manager to get us off this voyage to nowhere.

[prizby]

As for the actual subject - I'm not sold on Vanney going forward yet, but I'm also not... un-sold. We could probably do worse than to give him a chance going in to next season.

here's what sold me

When Nelsen was fired, there were 6 teams below TFC...NYRB, Columbus, and the 4 teams that are still below us now. In 10 games against those 6 teams below us up to the point when Nelsen was fired, TFC had 6 wins and 4 draws (good for 22 out of 30 points). In comes Vanney and we have played 5 more games against teams that were below us and we have 4 losses and 1 draw for 1 point out of 15. That alone speaks loudly to me

[ensco]

jloome is totally right of course. For most teams.

But us, we're special, as always, the rules don't apply.

Nelsen is no idiot, he would never have done what he did without very significant support. I can't help but think that we have a factionalized room, and that Vanney cannot win over at least half the room.

[jloome]

jloome is totally right of course. For most teams.

But us, we're special, as always, the rules don't apply.

Nelsen is no idiot, he would never have done what he did without very significant support. I can't help but think that we have a factionalized room, and that Vanney cannot win over at least half the room.

This has happened so many times I fear you're right; in a number of other manager examples here we had rumors of rifts in the locker room.

Having said that, I just want to see us go with the conventional wisdom for once. I don't really care if that means giving an existing coach ludicrous money to come here or keeping Vanney; but I see more from him that his record would indicate.

The fact is that we were so tactically deficient on the offensive end under Nelsen that any attempt by Vanney to introduce new, quicker buildup and movement is going to be difficult; we literally have a team learning new tactics late in the season, on the promise from Bez he can keep going next year.

I think Bezbatchenko is right down the line on this stuff; I don't think he has the personal presence to get by issues like the Defoe situation on personality alone; but I think he's right about the direction to take management, which is to finally stop trying to reinvent the fucking wheel and do what is successful elsewhere in the league.

To top it off, we're really only about four starters away from being a contender. Solve Defoe in the offseason, sign a handful of new blood and let's get back at it. Enough with the desire for instant fixes.

[Yohan]

Vanney reeks of charisma and authority of a kindergarten teacher. At least Nelsen could control the locker room with force of his personality (and resume) but Vanney? He talks good tactician, but sounds like a youth team coach which he really should get more experience doing.

[Shakes McQueen]

I'm wondering more if the guys in the room aren't happy about Defoe being back in the lineup, period. Bradley said some pointed things while Defoe was out, that made it sound like they all knew full well that he didn't want to be here any more, and that their feelings were more or less "don't let the door hit you on the way out".

[OgtheDim]

People keep talking about bringing in an experienced MLS manager but the only ones that would be worth bringing in don't really need this sort of headache (Shmid & Arena).

So, what's the choice?


Lets face it, we are not exactly a shining beacon of possibility and stability, are we.

************

I'm not sold on Vanney's maturity. He said some stuff about Henry before Saturday which was not helpful. He talks a good game. And, the tactical mess Nelsen left the team with is not going to get fixed this season.

That having been said, this team is a lot better then the one we had a season ago. Needs a formation change, which means jettisoning Defoe but he's a distraction now. Needs about 4 other pieces to succeed. Which is less then the other teams not making the playoffs.

My concern with a new GM is somebody blowing up the team - that's not needed. A new coach - would be good but I don't think we can get a decent one who wants to come here. (And, no, Bradley's Dad is not a good choice, for a number of reasons).

[ag futbol]

Thoughts?

The league pushes clubs into hiring inexperienced candidates or the usual casting call of North American Coaching lifers.

Not to dismiss some that have done a good job, but when the USL / NASL exist and a huge pool of NCAA coaches, why are they always tapping green candidates with very little experience. My conclusion is because they are cheap.

[Ivy]

Vanney reeks of charisma and authority of a kindergarten teacher. At least Nelsen could control the locker room with force of his personality (and resume) but Vanney? He talks good tactician, but sounds like a youth team coach which he really should get more experience doing.

I heard quite the opposite, actually.

[ag futbol]

My concern with a new GM is somebody blowing up the team - that's not needed. A new coach - would be good but I don't think we can get a decent one who wants to come here. (And, no, Bradley's Dad is not a good choice, for a number of reasons).

I would bet solid money on this team making heavy adjustments in the offseason. What Vanney and Bez talk about valuing and what a lot of these players provide is apples and oranges. They are Nelsen's players, not the GM's or the coach's. Hence the motivational problem, these guys know the guy who brought them in is gone and they are likely not far behind. MLS teams don't play well when guys are unstable; getting paid so-so money on non-guaranteed contracts with a decreasing certainty over your future will makes for minds that are elsewhere.

Look at the changes in the players used as well. Lovitz and Bekker will not start next year. The only reason they start now is because they have some qualities Vanney likes that the prior starters under Nelsen did not have.

I heard quite the opposite, actually.

You mean the guy who mumbles and looks at his feet when he talks didn't command authority in the dressing room? shocker.

[MartinUtd]

My thought is that we are all on the voyage of the damned, and we could hire Bill Shankly reincarnated and it wouldn't matter.

I'd love to make this a banner.

[notthesun]

How long is the list of former MLS players or just plain inexperienced coaches that have failed vs. the one for successes?

[ManUtd4ever]

My thought is that we are all on the voyage of the damned, and we could hire Bill Shankly reincarnated and it wouldn't matter.

This. We must all be repenting for misdeeds in past lives.

Although I do agree with jloome regarding the need for coaching stability and the need to bolster the existing nucleus of the roster in the off season.

[Red CB Toronto]

Maybe offer Landon the job.

[Initial B]

We gave Nelsen 3 transfer periods to get it right, I don't see how we can give Vanney any less.

[jloome]

We gave Nelsen 3 transfer periods to get it right, I don't see how we can give Vanney any less.

Even if we assume Defoe goes in January, our roster is much better of than before last season. We should only be a few pieces away. I just suspect that if we bring in someone from elsewhere, his first stamp on the team will be to shape the people around him, and that could mean a lot more upheaval to the roster. That's one of the biggest issues that has faced this team, building some cohesion.

[Cashcleaner]

Yeah, jloome is right in that there is an inherent risk attached to Vanney (for obvious reasons), but he just might end up being the right sort of person going into the next phase of league operations. If he really does have Bez's full support (as it's been reported several times now), then we gotta think about the team's long-term strategy and his part in it. I don't think either Vanney or Bez are leaving anytime soon - and that could be a very good thing when you consider the sort of flux the league is going through right now with regards to expansion, talent levels, interest from players outside North America, etc.

[anto7]

Yeah, jloome is right in that there is an inherent risk attached to Vanney (for obvious reasons), but he just might end up being the right sort of person going into the next phase of league operations. If he really does have Bez's full support (as it's been reported several times now), then we gotta think about the team's long-term strategy and his part in it. I don't think either Vanney or Bez are leaving anytime soon - and that could be a very good thing when you consider the sort of flux the league is going through right now with regards to expansion, talent levels, interest from players outside North America, etc.

Just finished listening to Vanney's latest interview on the TFC website. It may be all just his sales pitch to keep his job but damn he does sell himself well and I can't help but think we should give him a chance.

[Richard]

So Nick Dasovic is available. Looking at the two careers I would be inclined to think Nick is more of an MLS 2.0 type guy, he knows the entire soccer system from the academy to senior level. He does have past history with TFC, but it shouldn't not make him a candidate.

I think if TFC was once again going for young guy it should be him.

[TFC07]

So Nick Dasovic is available. Looking at the two careers I would be inclined to think Nick is more of an MLS 2.0 type guy, he knows the entire soccer system from the academy to senior level. He does have past history with TFC, but it shouldn't not make him a candidate.

I think if TFC was once again going for young guy it should be him.

If we're going for a young guy, then we might as well hire Danny Dichio as our head coach.

Danny Dichio is a fan fav who loves the city and has a high football IQ. Not only that, but he has been with club since first year.

[OgtheDim]

Dichio needs about 7 years more, including a couple as an assistant. To do well in this league, he also could do with a few years being an assistant to a GM. He'll be our manager some day, and hopefully a very good one, as his mind is excellent by all accounts and he's humble enough to know he needs to learn.

Just not yet.

[Oldtimer]

So Nick Dasovic is available. Looking at the two careers I would be inclined to think Nick is more of an MLS 2.0 type guy, he knows the entire soccer system from the academy to senior level. He does have past history with TFC, but it shouldn't not make him a candidate.

I think if TFC was once again going for young guy it should be him.

Daso's decent, but I think that Vanney has more tactical knowledge. Daso is strong in knowing Canadian players, however, so that's a plus for him.

[[NBF]]

Dichio needs about 7 years more, including a couple as an assistant. To do well in this league, he also could do with a few years being an assistant to a GM. He'll be our manager some day, and hopefully a very good one, as his mind is excellent by all accounts and he's humble enough to know he needs to learn.

Just not yet.

Nah, I think he's laughing from his junior academy office and saying "another one bites the dust" each time a head coach is hired then fired.

[ensco]

Dichio needs about 7 years more, including a couple as an assistant. To do well in this league, he also could do with a few years being an assistant to a GM. He'll be our manager some day, and hopefully a very good one, as his mind is excellent by all accounts and he's humble enough to know he needs to learn.

Just not yet.

He has talked about this, he will never do it, except maybe as a caretaker I suppose.

He has stepped back and given that dream up, because he cares about other things more. He went from running the Academy to coaching the 12 year olds because he likes teaching younger kids, and doesn't want the lifestyle of a serious manager for his own family. Plus there's the TV gig, and the odd PR thing. He loves Toronto, and he has set up his life so that he maximizes the odds that he will be here forever.

The guy, just like you'd expect, is the only guy around TFC who has a plan and knows how to get there from here.

You have to respect him all the more because he is capable of making these choices.

[Initial B]

Are there any coaches in NASL that might be ready for an upgrade to MLS?