Wow, we had 70% of the ball and completed over 500 passes.
Wow, we had 70% of the ball and completed over 500 passes.
Didn't see the game, just watched the dero goal highlight and the gilberto goal that was taken away.
gg mls soccer
gotta add, it was great seeing Dero score. been waiting for it all season.
Last edited by Couchy81; 09-14-2014 at 12:22 AM.
Even Yallop pretty much admits Chicago got lucky with that call.
“They actually could have won it,” Yallop added. “I haven’t seen the play again on video, but they could have won 2-1. It’s disappointing. Same old sort of story when I felt we were in control of the game, doing great.”
Glorious video of Bradley post-match. Oh god it's so good
http://www.torontofc.ca/video/2014/0...tember-13-2014
Originally Posted by SoccMan2
Well,the other thing you could think is that the referee saw his Chicago draw bonus disappearing and ensured that it would be 1-1. I actually don't think that was the case, but we do have to consider corruption given the fact there not only was no foul, there was not even the beginning of the beginning of a foul.
Bradley!
I have to wonder if a suspension is coming up for Bradley. I agree with Bradley however the league could use this to set a precedent in MLS. Maybe I'm overthinking it but I don't think I've seen someone rip into an official so openly
I don't think you're over thinking it
Bendik said about as much as he could for a guy on his salary as well.
http://www.torontofc.ca/video/2014/0...tember-13-2014
Hey, another example of the quality of Gantar's work ..... from 2011.
The sad thing is that he's probably not the worst referee on PRO's roster. There's still Stoica.
hahahah love his response to godfrey's dumbass question
the last statement, that's the captain speaking.
Bradley is in beast mode now, if he doesn't get suspended for his comments.
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
So our away section chanted all game long and I thought we did our team and city proud. I haven't been to many away games but I thought it was customary and a sign of respect to the travelling fans to come over and acknowledge them after the game if there is away support. Only two players made any effort. My family was disappointed with that. Is that unreasonable of us to think so?
I understand the way you're feeling, but watch that Bradley post game interview. Be reasonable.
ABOUT BRADLEY'S post game - MAN. IS. PISSED. Everybody at BMO field should give this man a standing ovation next game.
I'm finally de-lurking to post this. I've been reading here since 2007. Enjoy the opinions before/after games and manager implosions. Always fun.
But geez, a line just got crossed for me with some people in this thread suggesting/joking about a referee being assaulted, killed, etc. over a game. You guys play mens' league? Where do you think the MLS refs get their start? Who do you think is the next tier once you've inevitably fired/chased the entire crop of referees in a season over a bad call? I'm well aware that I'm wading into the belly of the beast here but I've been a TFC supporter longer than I've been a ref and you guys are making me ashamed to read the RPB board and wear the colours tonight.
Here's an article on what happens because of this attitude:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/john-bi...fies-1.2723597
Oh look, another one: http://www.si.com/soccer/2013/08/05/...er-utah-guilty
The best referee in the world right now is flipping burgers at McDonald's because someone yelled at him/her when s/he was doing a U-10 game and s/he quit forever. Someone like you. Next time a ref blows a major call at the World Cup, or at BMO, think about that.
I actually kind of like Dave Gantar. He's a decent Canadian referee working internationally--rare enough thing. He inspires folks like me and my peers to get better, so maybe in 10-15 years we can be halfway decent officials. He's also had a few really messy complicated situations this year. The call tonight had me cursing at my TV as well. In no way do I think that was a foul. I also don't have the angle Gantar had. Or the experience Gantar has. If the angle he had suggested that was a foul he needed to find a better angle. Fundamentally, the referee's best position is the best position from which to make the call and lack of fitness/positioning smarts is not a valid excuse.
MLS referees are assessed by international-level assessors after every game. At that level it's less about pass/fail than general improvement, which can take time and is frustrating for fans and refs alike. That said, MLS refs ARE dropped from time to time. See how many MLS matches Matthew Foerster has had recently.
That said, refs are human, too. You try running with elite athletes (who are on average 10 years younger than you) for 90+ minutes and see how mentally sharp you are. Same with the replay and comments thing: see how well you respond when a celebrity athlete is screaming in your face, and you probably do know it was a bad call, or at least a controversial one. The easiest way out is usually not to engage, thus the "replay" comments.
The funny thing is, replay probably wouldn't overturn that call. Generally foul calls are "in the opinion of the referee". Now, Gantar's threshold for trifling fouls was all over the place in that match--not a good thing--but all he has to say is "I thought TFC #9 held back Chicago's defender" and it's a holding offence. He sort of did. I disagree it was a foul, but it's not my game. Nor am I an MLS ref. Fouls are one of many large grey areas. There isn't just some specific threshold that gets taught. It's a management thing. Guidelines. Experience. It allows referees to adjust to the flow of the game, create a spectacle, and let the players decide the game. Which is what most people usually seem to want: common sense.
You're not going to get Howard Webb and Niccola Rizzoli in MLS, no matter how much you offer. Every league has its bottom-tier guys who are competent but prone to the odd foul-up. That's who you might get. Maybe. MLS already has those guys. We complain about them. So does everyone else in their league. MLS has some very elite refs, too, like Mark Geiger and Canadian AR Joe Fletcher from WC2014. They almost got the final (note that Hector Vergara, "that AR from Manitoba" as someone here put it the other day, was on Benito Archundia's crew at WC2010 and was probably the second choice for the final behind Howard Webb, which in hindsight...). Alan Kelly's only done about 3-4 top Champion's League games, and none of the most competitive. And he had a couple of really dodgy moments in MLS earlier this season. There's one involving Ozzie Alonso you can probably find.
PRO has improved things somewhat, but refs still make very little and many are bright folks with a lot of career options (I'm currently inactive as a ref because I'm in grad school making video games). One of the U.S.' most promising young officials was also a neurosurgeon. He chose neurosurgery over MLS work and a FIFA badge. Hard to blame him--it's a longer, more lucrative career.
Stavridis was the Greek ref from the strike, but was dropped after a colossal red card mishap involving Matias Laba and the Whitecaps. You can find video. Marco De Oliveira was another replacement who got his first PRO middle with TFC a few weeks back (Chicago at home?) and was pretty decent. Everyone wailed about how we got another inexperienced ref.
It's surprisingly cut-throat in MLS for refs. It takes years to get there and there are always other younger referees. There are, however, not enough to just fire all the experienced guys you dislike and start over. Or you'd start seeing the frequency of actual, real errors going way up. This is not helped by the lack of a proper second division in NA, so unlike in Europe where younger refs hone their skills on highly-competitive, high-stakes pro games, here they get NASL--if they live close enough--and USL Pro. There is nowhere to demote a referee to. And precious little inbound pipeline. Refereeing has improved a lot in MLS since I started watching. It's subtle. Things like Geiger's performances in Brazil are an indicator. It is NOT an easy thing to fix. The causes are deep and largely originate in youth soccer. We all know about the player pipeline problems. The ref problems are not unrelated.
I've gone on long enough, but I remember the game from 2008 (I think) where Guevara got sent off for punching some guy in the box and Toledo called the penalty. Cost TFC the game. And I remember being outraged and cruelly happy that Toledo had to be escorted out of BMO by police. Then I started refereeing, just low-level stuff, and now I'm kinda ashamed of that. I still feel the passion, and I still wish Toledo had seen the elbow their guy threw on Guevara that led to the punch, but it was a ways from play. Once you know a thing or two about all the things refs actually have to consider, all the minutiae of decisions and Laws, their techniques and such, and you actually realize that Toledo is one of the best in MLS. Or that the red Gilberto didn't get in Dallas was because it was a super-fast counter and there was no way the ref could cover 80 yards in 4.5 seconds to get to the far corner. AR can't see that side of the area well. Ergo, ref team is screwed. There are tricks to mitigate this (run the opposite diagonal on a recovery run, for instance). Sometimes they don't work. Watch Toledo and see how often he doesn't have to do that, because his positioning is so damn good.
Take a moment to think next time about how much one of these guys has to lose from a conspiracy. They don't hate your team, they don't try to decide games--sometimes they have to, it's part of the job. Sometimes they just plain out fuck up. I've been there.
I realize this is fandom. We get riled up for games. It's OK to rant at the refs or bemoan a call. It's pro soccer. I think there's a line that gets crossed when you start talking, even jokingly, about referee assault. People read this board. Including other refs. They're your fellow fans, of TFC and the game (one of my best memories as a ref was sitting talking TFC with another ref waiting for a game to start). When you joke about refs getting killed, they see that. Then they quit. My job gets harder, fixing the problems gets harder, and the sport as a whole suffers.
Sorry for the length. Just some of you fine folk deserve a bit of a slap for some of your comments. I'm back into hiding now--but I'll be reading, and you have my thanks for the thoughts, always.
Best,
VeryBigBeard
I stopped reading after you said "ashamed to read the RPB board and wear the colours"
thanks for registering though.
Ha now we understand! Last night's incorrect call on Gilberto was a make-up call by Gantar, in favour of Yallop, because of Gantar's bad call against Yallop's team in 2011.
Well…I'm happy DeRo's goal got us a point. Keeps us in the race for the playoffs.
The overall game we played like shit but yes…..ref made a terrible call at the end of the game and cost us 2 extra points.
And yes…..Bradley looks like an idiot. His whining is part of the reason shit like this happens but the big reason this happens is that officiating in ALL of MLS is junk.
We get screwed by it (calling back Gilbertos game winner) and we benefit from it. (Jackson getting away with an open ice blue line check in the first half lol)
So you guys can make fun of me all you want. But when we (all of TFC) whine about officiating that we know is bad to begin with, it's only going to get worse because the refs will hold it against us every game.
Bradley is going to get all his play, as well as the play of the rest of his teammates analyzed under a biased microscope from the refs for the next 7 games. Just like they've done since he blew up on the officiating during games, and in the media before.
It's just stupidity. People think it makes them loyal and part of the team but it doesn't. It makes them look unprofessional and will only make things worse.
If the last game of the season is make it or break it for the playoffs….and there is a play that could be called either way by officials (50/50 ball in our box or in the opponents box for example)……and it's a tie game in the 90th minute….do we really want to have had a captain talk shit about officiating all season?
Please answer that.
Last edited by v00d00daddy; 09-14-2014 at 07:12 AM.
You should have continued reading. It was well laid out and realistic.
It's a development league and you are going to get bad calls. Just as the top leagues still get bad calls.
I thought it was interesting too. At the end of the day they're human and make mistakes.
I also wanna say that I don't think refs treating a team unfairly is deliberate. I think it's subconsciously and human nature.
When a team yells at refs all the time and ridicules them in the media it's almost impossible to suggest thst it's not going to have an effect on the refs everytime they officiate games involving the team that called them out.
Last edited by v00d00daddy; 09-14-2014 at 07:11 AM.
I swear we should put out bingo cards for this site. Everybody, including me, has their schtick on here.
And, yes, we want our captain taking this on. For years, we have allowed teams to come into BMO and beat up on our players. How many times have we said after a game that we wish somebody would stick up for this team, and would rip the shirt off of somebody who was bashing one of our guys. For years, we have allowed refs to be bullied by other teams into making calls against us.(hello, SKC, LAG).
And you want us to be nice?
Nah.....nice has gotten us nowhere.
We are never going to whine as much as SKC and their coach does - they have taken it to an artform. But we can be a lot more truculent.
And, to be blunt, Ganter was poor and is poor and its time MLS gets called out on how bad these refs are.
******
If Bradley gets suspended, Garber has lost his shit. It was an obvious crap call. Its not like Bradley went out and said the ref was corrupt. He just said he wasn't good enough. Which is patently true, based on the amount of calls on both sides he got wrong. Fine him. Move on.
On the topic of video review, I don't think that helps on this.
No league in the world has video review for penalty/foul calls even when a goal/touchdown is in question.
The NHL doesn't review for interference. It looks to see if the puck crossed the line, whether it was kicked/batted/gloved in etc. Penalty calls are outside the scope.
Same with NFL. Holding, pass interference and all penalties are non reviewable.
In baseball, it's all about the outs and home runs. There is nothing reviewable about subjective calls like balls and strikes or interference.
If soccer had video review, there is no way last nights call gets reviewed. The play in question involved an alleged foul. Those would be non reviewable.
I'm not saying that Bradley is wrong about his assessment. I'm saying he's wrong in how he's showing it. It just won't benefit us. In fact, I think it has hurt us.I swear we should put out bingo cards for this site. Everybody, including me, has their schtick on here.
And, yes, we want our captain taking this on. For years, we have allowed teams to come into BMO and beat up on our players. How many times have we said after a game that we wish somebody would stick up for this team, and would rip the shirt off of somebody who was bashing one of our guys. For years, we have allowed refs to be bullied by other teams into making calls against us.(hello, SKC, LAG).
And you want us to be nice?
Nah.....nice has gotten us nowhere.
We are never going to whine as much as SKC and their coach does - they have taken it to an artform. But we can be a lot more truculent.
And, to be blunt, Ganter was poor and is poor and its time MLS gets called out on how bad these refs are.
******
If Bradley gets suspended, Garber has lost his shit. It was an obvious crap call. Its not like Bradley went out and said the ref was corrupt. He just said he wasn't good enough. Which is patently true, based on the amount of calls on both sides he got wrong. Fine him. Move on.
I'm sure many of us have played in men's leagues (footy, hockey…whatever) and I'm sure that we've all seen refs call games surrounding us way worse if we've been classified by them as the team that yells in their faces after every bad call. Conversely…..teams that are nicer to the refs get more of a benefit of the doubt on 50/50 calls.
We used ref bashing as an excuse to forgive our shitty play this year. That happens. But it's gone way too far. Between Nelsen on the sidelines and Bradley and Co. on the field, we've become an MLS team that yells at the refs and calls them out in the media.
There is no way that helps us.
I also hate that we never talk about the benefits that we've received from poor officiating. 2-3 posts about Jackson body checking a guy and not only did he not get a card….we didn't even have to defend against a free kick just outside the 18? LOL
If you think we are bad, you'd lose your shit over DCU, SKC, Portland, LAG, NYRB, & even NER.
And, actually the complaining does help.
I am 90% certain that Gilberto will be looked at in a different light next season.
I know that Bradley has been protected this season, even after his comments.
I'm pretty darn sure the faked up push that got a suspension for Jackson made refs think a little bit more about what Jackson does. He's getting away with stuff now, because its him, not because he's with TFC.
That, and I didn't see Bradley in Ganter's face except for that call and one occasion earlier. Which is what captain's do.
Thank you for your long and thoughtful post. No one here is calling for referees to be assaulted and I think all of us simply want them to be paid properly so they can make a good career out of it. It's a complaint against MLS, really.
If you were referring to an earlier post I made, I was simply making the point that in Latin America, an outrageous call like this, where there wasn't even a hint of a foul, has the fans thinking corruption. And I have refereed, coached, and my son is a referee. Yes it is hard and yes some supporters and coaches go crazy, but this call was beyond any bad call - simply a mystery how he could possible have called it.
Glad you stuck up for the profession and made us think twice, but it was still robbery and MLS still needs to fix the problem.
Forget Bradley's quotes about the ref, I really like the response to Leiweke. Though not directly aimed at him, he made note a few times that "every guy in here" gave their all.
That's some good stuff.
DeRo's comments about always trying… music to my ears.
How do they fix it?
That's what I come back to every time. MLS wants to reduce the number of controversial calls and to judge that it relies on perception.
But controversy by definition is where you have differing opinion. Last night was clear but some game changing decisions aren't. Fans will be on both sides of the incident depending on how it impacts their team. Controversy will never be avoided.
Video review could help but it won't be implemented for fouls. No league in the world opens itself up to video review of fouls. Not the NHL, NFL or even MLB. They know that to do so would open a pandora's box that would undermine the integrity of the league not to mention be next to impossible to rectify a foul situation in a game that was reversed. If MLS did that, it would appear even more bush league than it already is.
So, I'm back to the how do you improve a subjective situation? You can get better but you can never be perfect. "Fixing" the problem is an impossible objective.
I did. There were a lot of positives.
My comment with respect to playoffs vs draft picks is said with removing emotion from the question and looking at it logically.
What benefits the team more over the long term? A playoff run that just misses/first round exit or a higher draft pick? The feeling that I get is that this season is playing out like the Leafs seasons in recent memory.
I'm not saying tank or lose on purpose. In fact, I said "I hope they make the playoffs" but my fear is that they won't and in the end won't get a high draft pick.
Hope that clarifies.
Bendik looks almost like he's about to burst into tears during his interview. Seems like the rage is simmering inside.
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