^ Yep. We are the better team.
^ Yep. We are the better team.
Wow, that's confidence. I'm impressed. We need 4-5 wins in 8 games probably. I don't know I'd be so confident.....Originally Posted by trane
^ I am confident. We can beat most teams in this league.
Thank you for being so clear, fact based and rational. Completely destroys the "Nelsen had to go " types.
trane, i agree we are better than those teams (except kc). But with the addition of the instability of an inexperienced coach, and with all these injuries, i just don't know if we can show it enough to make the playoffs.
^ It is a situation that is in our hands, we should be able to win at least half of the remaining games. It will not be easy, but with Bradley, Gilberto and Defoe (hopefully back), we have enough to win. Keep it simple and organized and we can come through.
Away
Chicago
LAG
NYRB
NER
Home
Chivas
Portland
Houston
Montreal
4 games is doable. I just don't think its attainable with this defence, even when Morrow and Caldwell get back.
I can't see us getting more than 10 points from this and that's being real generous with our current and all season home form. I say we get blanked away and those matches will be almost full on ugly. I am thinking like 2 goals for and 14 against or so. The home matches I think we could beat Chivas and Montreal and maybe split a win & draw against Portland/Houston but unlikely we could go unbeaten at home for 4 matches. I say we end up with 40 points with those wins over Chivas & Montreal and a home draw against Houston.
That being said I could just as easily see us end the season with 35 points and get back into our typical range of goal differential (securely within the double digits -20+).
I agree with you that barticusz lays it out factually and rationally but I doubt that all will see the logic. I have probably posted too much about the stupidity of firing Nelson because I could not for the life of me figure out how anyone could think it was a good thing. But then I got to thinking about it and I came to the conclusion it was some kind of "Stockholm Syndrome" type of thing that is the root cause of this irrationality. While everyone is entitled to their opinion it starts to get really scary when we start to think that Dero and Bekker will somehow save the day and that Vanney is a good coach because he played them. Even scarier logic is the belief that we need to give Vanney more time to learn on the job even if it means sacrificing this season. Anyways the deed is done but there is no hope in hell that I will ever allow the MLSE "kidnappers" to brainwash me into believing that their abuse ( the firing) is good for me or the team.
In May, I woulda said every one of those games is winnable. Now, gonna be tough. I think the most winnable games are against LA and Chivas. I just pray that we're either guarateed in, or out, before the MTL game. If MTL is the reason we don't make the playoffs, it'll be a very very sad day.
LA? I would think that would be the toughest out of the remaining 8. Chivas, Houston, Chicago and Montreal <spit> are the winnable ones. New England and New Jersey are a coin toss. LA and Portland are going to be brutal (which makes for an even sweeter victory!).
Good thread.
Here is something I'm curious about. Of Nelsen's wins 9, how many of those were on a result of a solid team performance as opposed to a poor performance were Defoe snatched the points for us.
I can remember at least a few games where we looked flat and uninspired but won thanks to Defoe (like the home opener against DC for example). Defoe is listed as having 5 game winning goals. Not that that implies anything about the team performance either way - but is a quick stat that says his goals were directly involved in us winning 5 of the 9 games.
Wondering if there was a perception in the head office (right or wrong) that the performances have been below par but carried by Defoe. And with the very real possibility that he won't suit up for us again they made the choice?
Probably not - I'm thinking this is purely based on results and the direction the performances have been going in, but it has got me wondering.
I will also say the root of this issue is not that we are where we are now with a coaching change with 10 games left, it's that the organization got us into this situation in the first place, again...
brad you make good points, though speculative. I will agree that we've won games where we shouldn't have, but I would also argue that we've either lost or drawn games we should have won. I guess that's the law of averages just taking over. For all we know Nelson was horrendous for the dressing room and the players truly quit on him. I'm not sure that is the case because they weren't play all that bad until other than the SKC and NER games (injuries hurt in both those scenarios). IF the dressing room is greatly improved right now I can be in favour of this move, but I still think the players would have been professional enough to play out the rest of the season with Nelson. I would wager that they want the playoffs more than they would have hate for their manager.
I hope that Vanney can turn this tide and help the team but I fear he's been given an impossible task. Vanney isn't to blame in this situation though. The blame falls on Bezbatchenko for making a move when IMHO it was not warranted. If there was a fued behind the curtains that makes the decision of firing Nelson that much more atrocious because it was done purely for personal reasons.
my hat is off to you ...............................but................having watched many games on MLS LIVE,...there are some damn fine teams out there......and can't get over how exciting some of these games were . Not so much where my team is concerned , though . As much as I stand by them . We can't win with stoic 4-4-2 . Yet do we have the players allowing for 4-3-3 or ....my fav ...3-5-2......ah crap what do I know ? hope you're right and I'll take a double of what you're having .
ALL HELL'S BROKEN LOOSEhttp://gfycat.com/SharpKindArrowana
Yes and Yes.
Could TFC have made the playoffs with RN? Yes.
We dropped from being a handful of points out of being first in the East with numerous games in hand to being 8-10th in the entire league (and now in 13th). Making the playoffs with RN in charge would have been a justification, a sign of positivity, that MLSE would have seen as an accomplishment. With the team we had on the field, we should have easily been a top 5 in the entire league. I fully believe that RN was a major reason why we weren't there from start to (his) finish.
RN had to go, and I'd rather lose the rest of the games with a new coach than squeeze into the playoffs with RN. No justification for not being a top 5. He didn't do it last year, and not going in the direction to do that after 25ish games this year. Let's not forget that he also led a team that need PK's to get past Vancouver then lost to dead last Montreal in the Canadian championship.
Ryan Nelson should only have been in our management booth in some capacity - to bring in the big names and connections.
RN is and was a failure. We were not going to win the Supporters Shield with him in calling the game - now is as good a time as any to say bye-bye.
Last edited by Globetrotter; 09-08-2014 at 06:40 PM.
but if the team quits on you...........and it is very derisive in the dressing room , not just now but for a while and the most important ' 2' highly paid players are not working together or with the coach ..........what do you do ? lie and watch T'L's dream go up in smoke ? ..or roll the dice.............Bez I know has a plan 'B' which he basically said with B.McCowan for next year ..............whether anyone cares or can wait thats not my call , but if we were in his shoes ? For me, Defoe and behind the scenes is part of this equation . Let's be clear Nelson would never steal a game with coaching acumen .....and he lost a few to lesser teams but simply outcoached . I'm a STH and for my money ...we weren't making the play-offs . And I was tired of his predictable , rambling post-game sessions . However that does not negate everyones 'opinions' and team comparisons of past performances . It's done,...Onward and upward...........
ALL HELL'S BROKEN LOOSEhttp://gfycat.com/SharpKindArrowana
the team quit on Nelsen once they found out that the TFC FO was going to fire Nelsen. They were still playing hard prior to NE game
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
We are going to beat LA. I just know it. And it would be typical us.
…..pesos
With Nelsen, we were third. Without him, we are out of the playoffs. Objective facts. PLUS - the in year change sends the message that nothing has changed at TFC, that we are unable to create stability.
Those are facts, as for conjecture - I don't buy the "quit on him" line, the objective evidence doesn't fit that, plus we have to concede that injuries have affected the team. the New England game was horrendous but the previous few did not contain "quit on him" evidence, and if we are going with the conjecture, the power struggle theory between Bez and Nelsen has a lot to commend itself, including that it is typical TFC.
Some, not you, have said "I am ok sacrificing the rest of this season just to get rid of Nelsen" WHAT!???? WHAT!????? cue Jon Stewart rolling around in his chair.
If Nelsen had to go, end of season was the best, particularly if there was no Roy Hodgson - Fulham rescue type coach available, which there wasn't. My theory is Bez had decided to get rid of Nelsen and picked the first moment he was vulnerable to do the deed- which is why he didn't have a proper replacement in the wings.
Trane is right.
It's not that we're that good, it's simply that the bar isn't THAT high.
We just need a couple of breaks - maybe we won't hit 3 goal posts next game.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
bingo, good post.
Also objective facts - since the start of July (which I believe most would agree the trust test of this team started with the busy schedule, world cup) we had 3 wins in 12 games, up and including the horrendous New England game. Those 3 wins came against Houston (8th), Montreal (10th) and Columbus (4th). Our goal differential during this time was -6. We gave up 24 goals in 12 game while scoring 18.
The most important context of all- from July to that New England Game there were 36 points up for grab, Nelson managed 13. Instead of saying Vanney lead us from 3rd to 7th, maybe we should also think about how Nelson left 23 points on the table all against Eastern conference teams except from the draw against Vancouver.
Add in the horrendous New England game and press conference... that is where a lot of the "fire Nelson camp" is coming from.
The goal of this season was to make the playoffs - nothing less would do. Nelsen was on the hotseat when the season began. He (as well as all of us) knew that if things started to go south during the season for whatever reason, his job was in jeopardy. Well, after the World Cup break, things did make a turn for the worse. And he got canned. Not quite sure why some people are surprised when we all knew the Sword of Damocles was hanging over this guy's head from the very beginning of the season. Would we have made the playoffs with Nelsen? Perhaps - but extremely unlikely. Will Vanney turn things around in time? Perhaps, then again, maybe not. Was firing the manager with 10 games to go a smart move? If we make the playoffs, it will seem like an inspired move. But if we don't, I for one won't be thinking "what if"? Nelsen had clearly lost the room, and in my view, there was only one direction this season was going. It was a move that smacks of desperation, but unfortunately, there just weren't many options available at this point in time.
Perhaps the biggest mistake was TL not going with his own guy at the end of last season.
I don't necessarily disagree with you , but something was wrong prior and of course after New England game ....and I have no idea what . ..that is I believe (my opinion, in my gut) we weren't going to win perhaps even another game with Nelsen . However everything's speculation of course , as the season progressed and we basically wasted our games in hand , It seemed to me anyway that there was a downward spiral . I do know that Nelson's substitution acumen and in-game manipulation was horrid . All of this may or may not been all his fault . Maybe he was playing up to his 'stars' , no idea......It's just as a team , our all for one attitude simply wasn't there and for me not found under Nelsen . It is my lightweight opinion that with or without Nelsen we would be in exactly the same position . So I guess that still begs the question , what the hell did we need to do?........Everyones opinion has much credibility , of course, the only facts now are that he is no longer with us and we can only speculate . I'm afraid the can of worms are only beginning to wake up and crawl to the surface . The only consistency of TFC is we will be again in turmoil throughout the winter and we'll have tons of marketing/BS thrown at us , and we'll all be able to pull our hair out again .......for me though I am embarrassed how far down in the league our reputation has been buried (again).....and maybe the laughing stock once more .....'it hurts' .....
ALL HELL'S BROKEN LOOSEhttp://gfycat.com/SharpKindArrowana
Where did this come from? Link?
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
just my speculation after putting together some tidbits of info together (public and non public). You don't have a new permanent coach waiting the next day if you didn't plan this out for a while
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
Well my own speculation would see it differently. I hope it comes to light for peace of mind but until I get word that the FO told players Nelsen was going I can only rely on my eyes. I did not see the hustle the team is now showing playing for themselves (Vanney) in those games prior to NE. Whether they were uninspired with Nelsen or in protest for his treatment will not be solved today but it's still looked like the sacking was a result of the poor play.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
Not exactly solid proof but this makes reference to Nelson suspecting he'd be fired and the power struggle between he and Bezbachenko.
http://sports.nationalpost.com/2014/...ower-struggle/
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