TFC Tactical Discussion

[Jack]

Last night's match highlighted something that I've thought for a while about our midfield, which is that the two-man flat pairing doesn't give our backline enough protection and doesn't allow Osorio and Bradley to push forward. Also, Osorio isn't a winger/left midfielder, though his game should be effective playing in the left advanced position of a three-man midfield.

While Philly's counter didn't punish us other than on their goal, a team with a smart counter would definitely have shredded us with Oso, Bradley, Lovitz and Oduro all pushing up, plus Ashtone Morgan on occasion. I like attacking football, but you still have to have shape and someone high to take care of the ball. Shackling Osorio or Bradley takes away from what they can offer in the final third. That's why I think a 4-3-3/4-5-1 formation would suit us better, both for the players we have and for the style of play and opponents in MLS.

I posted this in the Philly matchday thread:

I'd really like to see us run a 4-3-3. I think our players have the skills for it and it fits with our lineup, but it's probably a tough call at this stage of the season.

When we have the ball, I'd try to play it this way:


Osorio, Gilberto and Moore play an inside-out game, where they make diagonal or horizontal runs that pull defenders with the others running into the space created. This would give Moore and Oso lots of options for passing and they'd have support from Bradley (inside), Bloom (outside) or Gilberto (up front) providing the triangle for passing. Moore does a good job of getting into the mix, knocking balls to Gilberto and they would be welcome to swap positions when they saw fit, with Osorio filling in behind.


Bradley provides the push up the middle, supporting Oduro's mad dashes down the right or giving the Oso/Moore/Gilberto trio a great option to switch back around. He can also, as he has shown, arrive late after the front trio has taken the ball deep. Him and Osorio both have the passing vision for this and having Warner mopping up would allow Bradley a bit more liberty to push up, although he would still very much have a key defensive role. Bloom has the legs to get up and down the pitch, and although I much prefer him on the right, he's probably our best option on the left until Morrow gets back, unless Ashtone Morgan somehow makes a triumphant return. Hagglund would have to be a bit more defensive on the right side, given that Oduro is going to be going forward with freedom and Bradley is going to be the one running into that channel behind him if play goes down the right.


By drawing defenders toward the potent trio of Osorio, Moore and Gilberto on the left, it gives Oduro the space he needs to run at defenders and pull them out of position, opening up space for said trio or for a trailing Bradley. If the ball stays on the right, Osorio then comes over to support toward the middle, Hagglund and Warner keep a relatively high line and act as an outlet if the cross isn't on, but also guard against a quick counter. In that scenario, Moore is the far post man and Gilberto either shows for low passes or drives toward the penalty spot for the cross.



Defending, we rely on high pressure from Moore and Oduro, as well as Gilberto's ability to run forever and drop back to help the midfield. Bradley drops back in front of the D to help Warner and Osorio fades left to support on that side. Given the speed of Gilberto and Oduro, this would also allow us to recover balls with the option of Oso or Bradley using their vision to spring the counter.





Anyway, maybe I play too much Football Manager, but I see this as a fairly dynamic system that would work with the talent we have, give us more options and still have good shape without the ball, provided the players play their roles. Am I off base with my assessments of any of the guys? I've watched a lot of the matches on MLS Live, but not every single minute of every single game.

There were some interesting comments on our tactics and it would be nice to have everything in one thread rather than scattered across match threads, transfer threads and news threads.

Interesting observations Jack, and I agree, but Vanney has already stated that he is going to implement a modified 4-4-2 with our midfielders pressing forward to create more offensive channels.

I would go with this lineup tomorrow:

---------------Bendik---------------

Bloom--Hagglund--Henry--Morgan

Oduro--Bradley---Osorio--Jackson

----------Gilberto--Moore----------

Vanney already said he'll be playing 4-4-2 because that system fits the players we have (which I agree with).

I just want to see something different tomorrow.

-------------Joe---------------
-----------------------------------
Mark----Bradley-----Doneil-----Nick
-----------------------------------
-------------Michael-----------------
------------------------------------
Domenic------DeRo<------>Jonathan
------------------------------------
-----Junior--------------Luke------

4-4-2 could easily not be a flat mid 4.

This is what I'd like to see:

----------------------Bendik--------------------------
Bloom-------Hagglund----Henry------------Morgan (only because I have to)
----------------------Warner-------------------------
----------Jackson-------------Osorio----------------
----------------------Bradley------------------------
---------------Oduro--------Gilberto-----------------

Here's what I think Vanney will put out:

----------------------Bendik--------------------------
Bloom-------Hagglund----Henry------------Morgan
Oduro---------Bradley------Warner----------Osorio
---------------Moore--------Gilberto-----------------

I have long thought a system similar, to what that dude "Jack" whomever he may be is suggesting would be best for this team, may invert the mid to 2 DMs 1 CM/AM as opposed to a 1 DM two 2 CMs, but generally the look is similar. We have the players.

why does this team always confuse "attacking football" with "pushing the ball up field as quickly as possible"?

We're pressing very aggressively and Philly is just passing crisply around us. Have a bad feeling if things stay this way.

Also, no plan for building out of the back. The D is often trying to hold onto the ball and pass it rather than lumping it forward.

What the hell is going on???? We can't put three passes together

Our 4-4-2 is too spread out. It's a nothing formation tactic. It's like a default setup in children's house league.

This team will only make the playoffs if Bradley plays as a single defensive midfielder.

Yes but if they don't chase the ball Philadelphia attackers will be able to turn and run at them with pace. Usually the CMs are there to protect the defence but both of ours are routinely up the field leaving just a flat-footed back line. We don't use the fullbacks in attack so our CMs try to make up the numbers up front. Everything is wrong IMO.

Please END Bradley-Warner partnership in the middle of field. When last time we won with both of them playing together? How many games we won with those two playing together?

Either start Bradley or Warner and have more offensive minded CM (Osorio) to partner up with.

There is no other answer but to play Bradley in front of the defence.

We have 3 lines of play right now. Teams in Europe play with 6 or 7 lines. The team Bradley came from, Roma, plays nothing like TFC in terms of tactics. Bradley is getting frustrated, it's very obvious.

Anyone notice that our troubles really started when Nelson went with the Bradley and Warner pairing? Neither player is really an attacking CM.

You can totally play 4-2-3-1. You put the box-to-box midfielder next to the true defensive mid and have him attack the box late. Portland and Vancouver have played this exact system.

More generally, our attacking tactics are horrific. There's little to no movement, nobody tries to breakdown defenders one-v-one, there's far too much pressure on Bradley to create, we hardly if ever switch the ball, we have no true TM yet try to play through one because we're so poor at passing creatively on the ground. What ends up happening is Warner and Bradley, spray the ball laterally and backwards with no hope of breaking down the defense. There needs to be an attacking midfielder to link the play, or a true target man like Dike so that we have an attacking presence.

In my opinion we need to play one of these attacking formations:

------Gilberto------
Lovitz-Osorio-Oduro
------Bradley------

More defined roles from Bradley and Osorio, Gilberto plays as a lone wolf up top in which he's been successful before and hopefully this can add some fluidity to the attack.

-Gilberto-Dike-
-----Osorio----
Bradley-Warner

Give Bradley more creative ability moving forward playing as a second attacking mid at times (and with his work rate also dropping back when defending), diminishes our shitty wing play and gives us a target man as an outlet for our back line when under pressure.

If/when Defoe ever returns:

---Dike-Defoe---
----Gilberto-----
-Osorio-Bradley-

These are my two cents.

[OgtheDim]

IIRC, cause last Saturday feels like an eon ago, didn't we start with a 4-2-3-1, of sorts?

Not that Warner and Bradley did much DM work....

[CommradePolski]

All i saw them doing last night was hoofball. Boot the ball to the forward and hope for the best.

[TFC07]

I think diamond shape 4-4-2 could work with this team as well (I believe we did play diamond formation when we're winning while Bradley was at WC).

Right now, CB's have no outlet besides Bradley to pass the ball to which they end up hoofing the ball. There needs to be a link between defenders and midfielders when we have the ball in our own end so we can build up something. Our midfield (especially in the middle) isn't creating enough for our forwards while not protecting our backline. IMO, this is biggest issue we're facing on this team.

[ag futbol]

Given what we have to work with right now I think sticking to the 4-4-2 and opening things up a little is a better plan than going 4-2-3-1.

Just don't think we have the pace from the FBs to fill the gaps or the technical / interchange play from the wingers to make it work.

Next year with turnover and changes I think you go in the 4-2-3-1 direction, but it's a bridge too far for our current roster.

[ensco]

Not to derail the intent here (I posted we should switch to 4-3-1-2 last night) .... but a lot depends on when/whether Creavalle and Morrow are available.

Without mobile, quality fullbacks any move to a formation like this won't work.

[jloome]

We had the best solution early in the season, when we were winning games: play Bradley mostly back and a creative mid beside him mostly going forward, preferably Osorio, but Bekker or even Lovitz would do in a pinch.

Why? Because Bradley's strongest skillsets, his world-class skillsets, are closing down the ball and reading the play early to close down passing avenues.

He's a better stopper than he is going forward; he's certainly overmatched to be doing both, and we look like a team trying to revolve around him as a full-field rover, which is ridiculous.

Warner isn't starting calibre, period. He makes very slow decisions, slower than Jackson, and gets stripped too often.

One of the things we lack since losing Rey has been our ability to hold up the ball and get other players into the play, or to use it to pull defenders out of position. We certainly aren't getting that with our current midfield mindset.

I say we play a wide diamond with Osorio at the top (or Lovitz if he's not healthy, as he's our second most industrious midfielder from a creative/dribbling standpoint, god help us) Bradley in front of the back line. We should switch Oduro and Jackson to opposite sides to force them to pinch in as we have little aerial threat from Gilberto/Defoe/Moore.

If we survive and get into the playoffs, our offseason priorities have to be 1) defining Bradley's role more closely 2) getting a creative attacking midfielder and wide players with more depth to their game than speed and a stepover or two. Our defense can survive injuries and wouldn't be hurt by one more decent center back. But we have no threat without some midfield creation and ability to hold the ball and move it on the dribble.

[jloome]

I'd set it up something like this for Saturday, put Dike in as a target man, see if we can't create some space for our Brazilian:

(assuming Morrow, Defoe, Caldwell and Osorio are all out):

------------Bendik---------------
Bloom---Hagglund--Henry---Warner
-----------Bradley--------------
Oduro-----DeRosario-----Lovitz
----------Gilberto-------------
-----------Dike----

EDIT: Warner played wide at RSL and is mostly a defensive player; given our fullback situation and his general uselessness elsewhere, it seemed a safer bet than playing Jackson on the right and Bloom on the left.

[barticusz]

I'd set it up something like this for Saturday, put Dike in as a target man, see if we can't create some space for our Brazilian:

(assuming Morrow, Defoe, Caldwell and Osorio are all out):

------------Bendik---------------
Bloom---Hagglund--Henry---Warner
-----------Bradley--------------
Oduro-----DeRosario-----Lovitz
----------Gilberto-------------
-----------Dike----

I believe DeRo is still out with the NT.

[jloome]

I believe DeRo is still out with the NT.

BAH!
We actually need him now, with Osorio out, and....

Ah well. Then we play Bekker as the secondary midfielder, and play to the fact that he's shit going back. Either way, the key is to get some space created in the offensive end by using the wide guys to get the ball up to Dike, to either hold up and dish to Gilberto/Bekker (or maybe Jackson wide and Lovitz in the middle? Hmmm...) or to get on the end of crosses. Either way, it'll create more danger than anything we're doing now:

--------------Bendik------------------
Bloom--Hagglund--Henry--Warner
---------Bradley-------------------
Oduro---Bekker/Lovitz--Lovitz/Jackson
------------Gilberto----------------
----------Dike-------------------

[Jack]

Not to derail the intent here (I posted we should switch to 4-3-1-2 last night) .... but a lot depends on when/whether Creavalle and Morrow are available.

Without mobile, quality fullbacks any move to a formation like this won't work.

No doubt. I'm just hoping we can have a discussion of the pros and cons of what we've done and what we could do that isn't scattered across five threads. We have many posters here who always make interesting, intelligent posts about tactics and they sometimes get lost in the torrent of rage during a loss or the latest "shit on player X" thread.

[Initial B]

I think that TFC has the pieces to play a 4-3-3. Warner-Bradley-Osorio would make a good midfield trio clogging up the centre with short, precise passes. Dike-Moore could make a good target forward tandem, and using Jackson-Oduro as a speedy winger on one side and Gilberto-Defoe as a creative poacher on the other wing. The backline... well, that's another story.

[OgtheDim]

We had the best solution early in the season, when we were winning games: play Bradley mostly back and a creative mid beside him mostly going forward, preferably Osorio, but Bekker or even Lovitz would do in a pinch.

Why? Because Bradley's strongest skillsets, his world-class skillsets, are closing down the ball and reading the play early to close down passing avenues.

He's a better stopper than he is going forward; ....

I'm very scepticle of that.


http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/4186/Show/-Toronto-FC

Seems to indicate he's pretty much a two way demon.

[jloome]

I'm very scepticle of that.


http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/4186/Show/-Toronto-FC

Seems to indicate he's pretty much a two way demon.

Did you actually look at his rating score on that page? 6.93, for a guy who came to us from Roma and over the first half-dozen games dominated the pitch? That's a good sign of how he's declined.

Mind you, any site that ranks Warner as a 7.11 is cause for significant skepticism.


Anyway, that link shows him to be our 7th most effective player as a two-way, which supports my argument. There's no way Michael Bradley should be our seventh ranked player, and if you think he would be if he was just playing as our anchor, I respectfully disagree.

[OgtheDim]

His passing efficiency if placed as an achor would be a waste.

And, more to the point, quite a few people have indicated he wasn't a DM when he played for Roma.

[ag futbol]

We just need a real DM in the offseason. Bradley goes after the play often enough where it leaves space in behind.

It is difficult to determine how to best use him though. Funny how they're all midfielders on paper but there are a 1000 different ways to describe how we'd like them to play.

[ensco]

SKC, RSL (and Seattle and Portland) play a lot of 4-3-3, and it's no coincidence that they score a lot. It's the best attacking formation there is.

[jloome]

His passing efficiency if placed as an achor would be a waste.

And, more to the point, quite a few people have indicated he wasn't a DM when he played for Roma.

I saw him play for Roma and he wasn't an out and out anchor, but he was a central midfielder who linked up play and played both offense and defense. But he played more of the latter than the former.

He has no assists and has contributed to fewer points being created than any other starter. Again, go back to the Seattle game, where he spent most of the game playing behind Osorio. I'm not saying he should always be rooted in our end spraying outlet balls, but we need someone who can consistently disrupt our opposition and turn the play around quickly, and the only person we have who fits that bill is Michael Bradley.

[Blizzard]

I saw him play for Roma and he wasn't an out and out anchor, but he was a central midfielder who linked up play and played both offense and defense. But he played more of the latter than the former.

He has no assists and has contributed to fewer points being created than any other starter. Again, go back to the Seattle game, where he spent most of the game playing behind Osorio. I'm not saying he should always be rooted in our end spraying outlet balls, but we need someone who can consistently disrupt our opposition and turn the play around quickly, and the only person we have who fits that bill is Michael Bradley.

He is a box to box MF. Build the MF around Bradley. Stop trying to fit him into some sort of pre-existing format. Let his play his game!

[jloome]

He is a box to box MF. Build the MF around Bradley. Stop trying to fit him into some sort of pre-existing format. Let his play his game!

If we play him as a box-to-box, we need another beside him, or we're left without enough cover and no way to break up teams on the counter.

[notthesun]

He has no assists and has contributed to fewer points being created than any other starter.

Could you clarify this? If you mean contributing to goals scored, he actually does have one assist (would have more if our finishing wasn't so woeful), but moreover I can think of a pretty healthy number of goals he had a hand in creating off the top of my head. If you mean contributing to actual points in the standings I'm not sure how you could judge that relative to other players.

[ensco]

I saw him play for Roma and he wasn't an out and out anchor, but he was a central midfielder who linked up play and played both offense and defense. But he played more of the latter than the former.

I've got it! He just needs to be paired with De Rossi and we're all set.

[Jack]

I've got it! He just needs to be paired with De Rossi and we're all set.

Good call.

[jloome]

I've got it! He just needs to be paired with De Rossi and we're all set.

LOL sort of my point. Collin Warner is no de Rossi.

He he has always thrived when he's had more or less of either going forward or staying back. Hell, he scored eighteen goals in the Dutch eredivisie one season, so he can go forward. But he'd be more effective as our anchor.

[jloome]

Could you clarify this? If you mean contributing to goals scored, he actually does have one assist (would have more if our finishing wasn't so woeful), but moreover I can think of a pretty healthy number of goals he had a hand in creating off the top of my head. If you mean contributing to actual points in the standings I'm not sure how you could judge that relative to other players.

Im just talking goals and assists. People keep suggesting he should be our offensive catalyst but he has next to nothing to show for that role.

[Kingvikingstad]

He is a box to box MF. Build the MF around Bradley. Stop trying to fit him into some sort of pre-existing format. Let his play his game!

While Bradley is clearly an excellent player and seems to be tactically sound, he does need a defined role. Without the necessary cover behind him he's not gonna join the attack. He's going to continue to drop level with the defensive line to pick up the ball because otherwise he's not getting it and I'm sure that frustrates him. As a result, he rovers around with no real purpose and just works to facilitate the offense out of basically the CB position, which I don't have to tell you is a big problem.

I think there's a couple ways to fix it. Either move Bradley up the pitch to an AM role, which isn't ideal but in the MLS I'm sure he could do the job for us. This would require us to have a designated anchor man which would have to be either Orr or Warner, neither of which are ideal. Option 2 is we can drop Bradley to the anchor role for the rest of the season and ensure he protects the back four. This would move Warner to the bench as Bradley could play the role of two DMs on his own, and open up more attacking options. Currently, he's in between these two roles and scared of moving forward because he doesn't trust Warner or get the ball when he wants it and it just isn't working.

With that said, the more I think about it, the more I'd like to see:

---Moore-Dike---
-----Gilberto-----
Osorio-----Lovitz
-----Bradley----

I think this lineup puts us in the best position moving forward.

Dike plays as a TM and holds the ball up. Gilberto is good at running at defenders and likely creates more than any other player on our team. Moore is a solid poacher that can hold up the ball a bit. I think this setup will give us a greater ability to possess the ball. Osorio and Lovitz can attack from the wings with support from Gilberto. Bradley has a defined role and can link with Gilberto. Bradley can help with the organization at the back and cover some of the mistakes and spread the ball to the wings or to Dike. Ideally we'd have some overlap play from the FBs but beggars can't be choosers.

This likely gives us the most options for attacking play, and if we're not going to make the playoffs I'd rather it be with us trying to attack. The other positive function of this setup is that you can slot Defoe right into Moore's spot if/when he returns.

[jloome]

While Bradley is clearly an excellent player and seems to be tactically sound, he does need a defined role. Without the necessary cover behind him he's not gonna join the attack. He's going to continue to drop level with the defensive line to pick up the ball because otherwise he's not getting it and I'm sure that frustrates him. As a result, he rovers around with no real purpose and just works to facilitate the offense out of basically the CB position, which I don't have to tell you is a big problem.

I think there's a couple ways to fix it. Either move Bradley up the pitch to an AM role, which isn't ideal but in the MLS I'm sure he could do the job for us. This would require us to have a designated anchor man which would have to be either Orr or Warner, neither of which are ideal. Option 2 is we can drop Bradley to the anchor role for the rest of the season and ensure he protects the back four. This would move Warner to the bench as Bradley could play the role of two DMs on his own, and open up more attacking options. Currently, he's in between these two roles and scared of moving forward because he doesn't trust Warner or get the ball when he wants it and it just isn't working.

With that said, the more I think about it, the more I'd like to see:

---Moore-Dike---
-----Gilberto-----
Osorio-----Lovitz
-----Bradley----

I think this lineup puts us in the best position moving forward.

Dike plays as a TM and holds the ball up. Gilberto is good at running at defenders and likely creates more than any other player on our team. Moore is a solid poacher that can hold up the ball a bit. I think this setup will give us a greater ability to possess the ball. Osorio and Lovitz can attack from the wings with support from Gilberto. Bradley has a defined role and can link with Gilberto. Bradley can help with the organization at the back and cover some of the mistakes and spread the ball to the wings or to Dike. Ideally we'd have some overlap play from the FBs but beggars can't be choosers.

This likely gives us the most options for attacking play, and if we're not going to make the playoffs I'd rather it be with us trying to attack. The other positive function of this setup is that you can slot Defoe right into Moore's spot if/when he returns.

I like that, although I wonder how much defense we'll get out of Gilberto, as he'll have to track well back occasionally in this shape.

[Kingvikingstad]

I like that, although I wonder how much defense we'll get out of Gilberto, as he'll have to track well back occasionally in this shape.

I'm with you, though I think Gilberto (injuries aside) is up to it with his work rate. He often tracks back anyways because he seems to enjoy being involved in the play. Obviously it's not ideal, but we don't really have an AM on the roster and Gilberto is the closest to fitting the bill.

The other option is putting Osorio there, having Gilberto start in Moore's place and bringing on Jackson or Oduro who I don't really rate. I think Gilberto-Osorio-Moore > Osorio-Gilberto-Jackson/Oduro. That's my thinking.

[MightyDM]

The weakness is that is a very narrow lineup.
Separately, we miss Jacksons's defensive abilities. He would have been good cover for Morgan last game - particularly on the goal. If you look back, our decline starts not just with the world cup but with moving Oso to a wide position in lieu of Jackson. I know his attacking play drives people crazy, but he was very solid defensively from that position.
I also rate Bekker a bit higher than some with Bradley lying back. (This is hindsight though)
Serpareately,

[trane]

I saw him play for Roma and he wasn't an out and out anchor, but he was a central midfielder who linked up play and played both offense and defense. But he played more of the latter than the former.

He has no assists and has contributed to fewer points being created than any other starter. Again, go back to the Seattle game, where he spent most of the game playing behind Osorio. I'm not saying he should always be rooted in our end spraying outlet balls, but we need someone who can consistently disrupt our opposition and turn the play around quickly, and the only person we have who fits that bill is Michael Bradley.

I agree with you, yes in Roma he was not the CDM, but they have De Rossi (and then Stoortman who can also play that role) one of the best CDMs in the world. Bradley as the CMD/Regista would make this team click as he has the vision to run the offense, like Pirlo. I believe at Udinese he played that role, it is there where he caught my eye, and he got the nickname the General.